20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
Jesus instructions to watch and be praying - showing that we believe in Him - in Luke 21:34-36 carries the same instructions Jesus gave in Matthew 24:32-51.

In Matthew 24:32-51, we have the parable of the fig tree generation - when the rapture will take place, the season. And also a repeat of Luke 21:34-36, to watch, for we know not exactly what day our Lord comes - to escape going to the great tribulation.

Differently, in Matthew 24:15-31 is Jesus's instructions to the Jews, who will end up going through the great tribulation. For them, who are living in Judea at the time is to flee to the mountains to survive.

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Pretrib claims multiple passages that actually forbid the doctrine. That is because there is no Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

Matthew 24:29-30, 35-41,

Jesus also says of His coming in Matthew 24:29-30 (in a parallel passage), “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken. And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and ‘they shall gather together’ his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano), and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano), and the other left.”

Strong’s tells us that the Greek word paralambano in this passage means “to receive near, i.e. associate with oneself in any familiar or intimate act or relation.” The word is interpreted elsewhere in the King James Version as receive, take unto or take with. It portrays the idea of: to take as a companion. The company that is received by Christ in this passage must therefore be those that intimately love and are waiting for His return. They are taken from the destruction that is poured at His appearing and immediately return to regenerated earth. In short, one is taken to safety the other left for destruction.

The word used here to describe the second party in view is the Greek word aphiemi, which carries the meaning to forsake, put away or lay aside. This can never refer to the righteous who God says, in Hebrews 13:5, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.” This is the fate that awaits the wicked alone when Christ comes in all His glory. The words applied to either party in the original determine who and what He is speaking of.

Mark 13:24-33

In Mark 13:24-33 Jesus speaks about His return: “in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and ‘shall gather together’ his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.”

The first thing we should note here is that Jesus tells us that the “coming” of the Lord and the gathering (i.e. catching away) of the saints occurs after the tribulation. This negates the Pretrib argument that the “gathering” of the saints occurs before the tribulation period. Not only does the Lord gather the living elect “from the four winds... of the earth” but He also gathers His elect from “the uttermost part of heaven.” Jesus is seen to come “with” and “for” His saints as shown in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. This challenges the popular Pretrib theory that Christ is simply coming “for” His saints the second time and coming “with” his saints the third time (7yrs later).

Luke 21:25-32

Jesus said in Luke 21:25-32: “And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh. And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.”

Christ is our redemption; the Coming of Christ is the day of redemption. It is the day when Jesus returns “in a cloud with power and great glory” to remove the curse and glorify God’s people, this earth and the kosmos. It is a day to be anticipated for the redeemed. It is a day when God’s people realise perfection through the act of glorification and when the kingdom of God is revealed in all its final eternal glory.

Jesus continues in Luke 21:33-36 that “Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

After the tribulation comes the one-and-only climactic Coming of Christ, which sees the destruction of the wicked and this sin-cursed world.

The phrase "ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.

God’s people are exhorted to prevail or overcome by being strong until the end of the world when our current cursed arrangement shall be destroyed.

We could therefore interpret the words of Jesus in Luke 21:36: “Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye (katischuo) prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”

Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction. We know when Jesus returns: “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10-12) and that the old arrangement will be replaced at Jesus return with “a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea” (Revelation 21:1-2). For the believer, “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
I wrote...the nation of Israel borne in a single day.

What I meant was that Israel in May 14, 1948 fulfilled a part of Isaiah 66:7-8, a nation born at once.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Christ-rejecting ethnic Israel is definitely not spiritual Zion. According to Scripture, we (the New Testament Church) currently inhabit true Zion/heavenly Jerusalem

Jesus referred specifically to Psalm 118:22 when talking to the religious Jews of His day: “Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder” (Matthew 21:42-44).

Christ shows Psalm 118:22 and Isaiah 28:16 to be messianic prophecies pertaining to Himself. By doing that, Christ was revealing the literal fulfilment of these figurative Old Testament predictions. One thing we should note as we consider Christ’s interpretation of this Old Testament passage is how He predicts the removal of Israel’s special place of favor among the nations (through their stubborn rebellion,) and the placing of God’s blessing upon the Gentile people (through their obedience). This is something that is seen in the various New Testament passages that refer to these Old Testament prophecies.

The issue at hand here is the fact there is more than just a natural Israeli application to Hebraic terms. In the New Testament, the Holy Spirit repeatedly employs these appellations in a spiritual sense to describe the redeemed assembly – a company that includes countless Gentiles.

Psalm 118:22 tells us: “The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner.”

Christ showed the rejection of Himself, predicted in Psalm 118, related to the Jews rejecting Him during His earthly ministry. Even though “He came unto his own, and his own received him not” (John 1:11) Scripture makes clear: “But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name” (John 1:12). Christ shows that the Gentiles would embrace Him and bring forth the necessary spiritual fruit that attends being true believers.

Isaiah 28:16 declares: “Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.”

This Messianic text shows us that Christ is located within Zion. He is a figurative “precious corner stone, a sure foundation” that has been laid in Zion. Those that embrace Him enter Zion – that spiritual place of rest and safety. The spiritual application is clear for all to see. Zion (Sion) represents the kingdom of God; it represents the heavenly realm. We see support for this in our Lord’s comments to the unbelieving Jews: “The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.”

When the New Testament references these Old Testament prophecies and applies them to the new covenant era we see the spiritual sense of Zion (Sion) today. Zion/Sion in a New Testament sense is not a natural earthly location but a spiritual abode that the people of God enter. Christ is the cornerstone of a wider spiritual building located within Zion, which believers inhabit. It is a dwelling place that the Christ-rejecter cannot enjoy.

Romans 9:30-33 continues in the same vein: “the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone; As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

In the New Testament, Christ rules over spiritual Zion. All who embrace Him reside there and enjoy the spiritual blessings that accompanies intimacy with Him. Everything in both the Old and New Testament is pointing towards Jesus Christ. It is not about physical earthly land. It is not about the Middle East. It is not about a brick temple. It is about spiritual territory. It is about a heavenly kingdom. Earthly Zion means nothing today; heavenly Zion is everything. It is not about an earthly king, but rather a heavenly king. It is not about race; it is rather about grace.

“The stone which the builders rejected” (Psalm 118:22), “a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence” (Isaiah 8:14) or the “stumblingstone” (Romans 9:32-33) within Zion (Sion) is Jesus Christ. Scripture shows us that the rejection of that figurative stone was the rejection of our Savior. Paul, in Romans 9:30-33, shows natural Gentiles (heathens) accepting that stone, experiencing salvation, and entering into the favor of God. Natural Israel, on the other hand, is shown in Romans 9:31–32 to have stumbled at Christ the rock.

Romans 9:33 broadens Zion out to “whosoever believes in him shall not be ashamed.” This includes God’s people of all nationalities. Those who were hitherto aliens and strangers to Almighty God have now graciously “attained to righteousness” whereas natural Israel “hath not attained to the law of righteousness.” The spiritual application is obvious.

Through Calvary, the Gentile has been brought into a new realm, a new spiritual status, and therefore enjoys a new citizenship, with its consequential new benefits. Gentile believers unite with Jewish believers in inhabiting Zion. Salvation comes by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Romans 11:26, “all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.”

Paul makes a slight alteration to Isaiah’s prophecy in order to show the fulfilment of this glorious prophecy. Instead of saying that the Redeemer would “come to Zion” he significantly says Christ would “come out of Sion.” Is there a reason for this? The reason for this significant amendment was obviously because this Old Testament prophecy was no longer unfulfilled but was perfectly fulfilled in Christ’s earthly ministry

As we discovered previously, Paul takes his statement “all Israel shall be saved” from Isaiah 59:20: “as it is written.” So what does it say? Isaiah 59:20 says, “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD. As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the LORD.”

Many Dispensationalists will highlight the last part of Romans 11:26, which promises unbroken favor upon ethnic Israelites, but seem to miss, ignore or conveniently overlook the actual company in view. It is not all natural Israelites. It is not an unqualified statement. Scripture is careful to attribute eternal favor to only those that are redeemed (whether Jew or Gentile). The reading outlines a conditional clause: “And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.” “Sion” in reference to “Jacob” relates to the kingdom of God. Christ the Messiah (the deliverer) will come out from among true Israel, not natural Israel (Jacob).

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
I wrote...the nation of Israel borne in a single day.

What I meant was that Israel in May 14, 1948 fulfilled a part of Isaiah 66:7-8, a nation born at once.

7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child.

8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

Although Israel is a nation again, the Jews (her children) corporately speaking have yet to believe in Jesus. The pain of the great tribulation has not come yet. It is during that time that the Jews will turn to Jesus.

verse 7 refers back to Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given. The son of course is Jesus. But verse 7 indicates the son is born before Zion's pain came.

verse 8 Zion bringing forth her children - a way of saying the Jews will be delivered when they turn to Jesus during the great tribulation, near its beginning - "for as soon as Zion travailed".

1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not relate Sion (Zion) to the natural realm and to ethnicity. It does not apply without salvation to natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.

The elect of God enter Zion upon salvation, as they embrace Christ. Peter describes Gods people as a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:5). Like Jesus teaching in Matthew 21:42-46, the nation mentioned is shown to be no ordinary carnal nation. No, but a sanctified spiritual community found throughout all nations. It is a spiritual nation that is positionally seated in heavenly places.

What is more, verse 10 shows the dominant people in view here are not Jews but Gentiles. These were a people who have previously “in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” This agrees with the constant message of the New Testament that all the people of God, whether Jew or Gentile, have taken a hold of Sion’s king and entered into a heavenly standing in Christ.

The believer is now seated in heavenly places spiritually – in the true Mount Zion. Why? Because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” There is no need for some supposed future millennium, this age fulfils every heavenly requirement for the fulfilment of Christ’s kingly reign.

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matters today is revealed as heavenly Sion, not physical Jerusalem that has rejected Christ for 2000 years. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We see a clear unfolding pattern in the New Testament: physical Jerusalem is left rejected and abandoned by God, whereas, Zion is elevated and inhabited by the people of God. Heavenly Zion is shown to be the abode of the congregation of Jesus Christ. Both Jews and Gentiles today enter the heavenly Jerusalem upon salvation. This is the spiritual abode of the righteous. This is the fulfilment of the Old Testament type and shadow. This is the place of salvation for the righteous. The Holy Spirit defines Zion in such a way that contradicts the Dispensationalism understanding of it. We are clearly not looking at some physical city in the Middle East. We are looking at the heavenly abode where God’s people belong. The dead in Christ literally reside there now; living believers are spiritually seated there now.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority secured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the people of God now walk in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.”

Revelation 21:2-3, 9-14 says: “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

The bride (“the Lamb’s wife”), is here identified with, or as, the new Jerusalem. Matthew Henry explains: “we have a large description of the church triumphant under the emblem of a city, far exceeding in riches and splendor all the cities of this world.”

It notably includes both the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. This vividly reminds us of the unity and community of God’s people through the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no separation. Both belong to the body of Christ. Both are the elect remnant of God. Both are God’s only bride. This descriptive passage confirms that the Old Testament faithful represented by “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel” enjoy equal status with the New Testament saints within the bride of Christ represented by “the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Here at the consummation, the people of God throughout all ages are united in Christ for all eternity. The new Jerusalem is not merely a physical place, it describes a spiritual people. We are looking at faithful Israel through the ages.

Speaking of the clear connection between the “new Jerusalem” and “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel,” John Gill tells us that this is “not literal, but mystical Israel, whom God has chosen to salvation, Christ has redeemed by his blood, and the Spirit calls by his grace; denoting that all, and each of these, have a right to enter into the new Jerusalem, and will be admitted there, and none but they.”

This is in keeping with the New Testament revelation of truth, which constantly shows an overlap between the Old Testament congregation of God and the New Testament one. That is why we have the Hebrew terms associated with the assembly of God under the new covenant.

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. Mount Zion in the Old Testament was a type of the true Mount Zion in glory. Jerusalem is the same. David’s throne also was a mere imperfect type of Israel's true heavenly king. The kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Why would Christ yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem? He is reigning now on David’s throne (since the resurrection) in heaven.

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Pretrib claims multiple passages that actually forbid the doctrine. That is because there is no Scripture that teaches (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by a literal seven-year tribulation, (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ.

The rapture is the translation of the living believers in Christ in 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

So that is the scripture for the rapture.

There is debate on when the rapture takes place in regards to the 7 year 70th week.

sovereigngrace said:
After the tribulation comes the one-and-only climactic Coming of Christ, which sees the destruction of the wicked and this sin-cursed world.

No one is arguing that there will be the Second Coming of Christ.

There are conflicting views between Amil and Premil, as far as what takes place after the Second Coming of Christ.

sovereigngrace said:
Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.”

Jesus was emphasizing the validity of what he was saying, in that someday heaven and earth shall pass away. He was not saying when in Luke 21:34-36.

He was saying how to avoid the great tribulation that will come upon all the world.

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
The rapture is the translation of the living believers in Christ in 1Thessalonians4:15-18.

So that is the scripture for the rapture.

There is debate on when the rapture takes place in regards to the 7 year 70th week.

No one is arguing that there will be the Second Coming of Christ.

There are conflicting views between Amil and Premil, as far as what takes place after the Second Coming of Christ.

Jesus was emphasizing the validity of what he was saying, in that someday heaven and earth shall pass away. He was not saying when in Luke 21:34-36.

He was saying how to avoid the great tribulation that will come upon all the world.

The wrath of God comes when Jesus comes and destroys all the wicked. There is no one left to go into your supposed tribulation after the coming of Christ. That will never happen. That is a Pretrib innovation.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Christ-rejecting ethnic Israel is definitely not spiritual Zion. According to Scripture, we (the New Testament Church) currently inhabit true Zion/heavenly Jerusalem

God has attached Him Name to Israel and Jerusalem here on earth before all mankind. God's good name, His Holy Name, is tied the restoration of Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The wrath of God comes when Jesus comes and destroys all the wicked. There is no one left to go into your supposed tribulation after the coming of Christ. That will never happen. That is a Pretrib innovation.

Better take a look at the vials of God's wrath in Revelation.

The great tribulation is in the bible, in Matthew 24:15-31, ending with Jesus's Second Coming.

Jesus Returns and rules the nations with a rod of iron.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
1 Peter 2:3-11 adds further evidence to our enquiry: “If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious. To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.”

Peter does not relate Sion (Zion) to the natural realm and to ethnicity. It does not apply without salvation to natural Jews or to the physical nation of Israel, as modern-day Dispensationalists do. Quite the opposite! He shows Zion to be a spiritual place that all believers inhabit. God’s people are often referred to in Scripture in figurative terms. In this passage, they are specifically described in building terms. The Church is described as a spiritual structure incorporating spiritual building blocks – collectively known as His body – the temple. In 1 Peter 2:6, believers are described as being “lively stones” in God’s “spiritual house,” and as being a “holy priesthood” offering up “spiritual sacrifices.” This building is said to be located in “Zion,” with Christ as its “chief cornerstone.” These are the only sacrifices that are acceptable to God today.

The elect of God enter Zion upon salvation, as they embrace Christ. Peter describes Gods people as a “chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people” (1 Peter 2:5). Like Jesus teaching in Matthew 21:42-46, the nation mentioned is shown to be no ordinary carnal nation. No, but a sanctified spiritual community found throughout all nations. It is a spiritual nation that is positionally seated in heavenly places.

What is more, verse 10 shows the dominant people in view here are not Jews but Gentiles. These were a people who have previously “in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.” This agrees with the constant message of the New Testament that all the people of God, whether Jew or Gentile, have taken a hold of Sion’s king and entered into a heavenly standing in Christ.

The believer is now seated in heavenly places spiritually – in the true Mount Zion. Why? Because Christ now reigns there on David’s throne. Those that have the “fear of the LORD is his treasure” and experience the “strength of salvation.” There is no need for some supposed future millennium, this age fulfils every heavenly requirement for the fulfilment of Christ’s kingly reign.

Hebrews 12:18 supports this contention, saying, “For ye are not come [plural perfect active indicative] unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest.”

Hebrews 12:22 says, “But ye are come [plural perfect active indicative] unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.”

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. The mount that matters today is revealed as heavenly Sion, not physical Jerusalem that has rejected Christ for 2000 years. These references in the original relate to the present, and are active, meaning the subject continues to exist in the state indicated by the verb. They relate to the here-and-now and are ongoing. They speak of our immediate entry into the kingdom of God and our current spiritual standing in the New Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is more than a future hope (even though it most assuredly is that), it is a present reality.

We see a clear unfolding pattern in the New Testament: physical Jerusalem is left rejected and abandoned by God, whereas, Zion is elevated and inhabited by the people of God. Heavenly Zion is shown to be the abode of the congregation of Jesus Christ. Both Jews and Gentiles today enter the heavenly Jerusalem upon salvation. This is the spiritual abode of the righteous. This is the fulfilment of the Old Testament type and shadow. This is the place of salvation for the righteous. The Holy Spirit defines Zion in such a way that contradicts the Dispensationalism understanding of it. We are clearly not looking at some physical city in the Middle East. We are looking at the heavenly abode where God’s people belong. The dead in Christ literally reside there now; living believers are spiritually seated there now.

When a man or woman gets saved, they automatically enter the kingdom by being “born from above” (John 3:3). They obtain heavenly citizenship. Philippians 3:20 tells us, “For our citizenship is in heaven, from which we also eagerly wait for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ” (NKJV). Through the new birth God has “raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:4-6). He has “blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ” (Ephesians 1:3).

The Church currently exists in its heavenly authority secured for them by Christ who has already defeated every enemy. The introduction of the kingdom of God through Christ’s earthly ministry saw the beginning of Christ’s assault upon the global control of Satan. It is through the finished work of Calvary that the people of God now walk in victory. The responsibility of the Church is to simply enter into the reality of that great eternal work by faith. We reside on a far higher spiritual plane than this sin-cursed earth, namely in the throne-room of God. Abiding there ensures we walk by His will, His commands and His blueprint rather than our own carnal desires.

Revelation 14:1-4 says, “And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

The first thing we note here is that it is speaking of the heavenly mount Sion. The second thing we note is that the 144,000 are “before the throne.” The third thing we note is that the 144,000 are the “redeemed from the earth.” This evidence proves that we are looking at the dead in Christ now in heavenly Jerusalem. The fourth thing we note is that this scene occurs well before the Second Advent not after. The fifth thing we see is that they are “the firstfruits unto God” not the last fruits as some would suggest.”

Revelation 21:2-3, 9-14 says: “I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God … Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb's wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal; And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.”

The bride (“the Lamb’s wife”), is here identified with, or as, the new Jerusalem. Matthew Henry explains: “we have a large description of the church triumphant under the emblem of a city, far exceeding in riches and splendor all the cities of this world.”

It notably includes both the twelve tribes of Israel and the twelve apostles. This vividly reminds us of the unity and community of God’s people through the person and work of Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no separation. Both belong to the body of Christ. Both are the elect remnant of God. Both are God’s only bride. This descriptive passage confirms that the Old Testament faithful represented by “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel” enjoy equal status with the New Testament saints within the bride of Christ represented by “the twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Here at the consummation, the people of God throughout all ages are united in Christ for all eternity. The new Jerusalem is not merely a physical place, it describes a spiritual people. We are looking at faithful Israel through the ages.

Speaking of the clear connection between the “new Jerusalem” and “the twelve tribes of the children of Israel,” John Gill tells us that this is “not literal, but mystical Israel, whom God has chosen to salvation, Christ has redeemed by his blood, and the Spirit calls by his grace; denoting that all, and each of these, have a right to enter into the new Jerusalem, and will be admitted there, and none but they.”

This is in keeping with the New Testament revelation of truth, which constantly shows an overlap between the Old Testament congregation of God and the New Testament one. That is why we have the Hebrew terms associated with the assembly of God under the new covenant.

Physical Jerusalem is no longer considered true Sion (Zion). Under the new covenant, Sion (Zion) is heavenly and eternal, not earthly and temporal. Mount Zion in the Old Testament was a type of the true Mount Zion in glory. Jerusalem is the same. David’s throne also was a mere imperfect type of Israel's true heavenly king. The kings of Israel were a rebellious fleshly idea. However, God used them as a shadow of His heavenly kingship. Why would Christ yield to the permissive idea of man and reign in physical Jerusalem? He is reigning now on David’s throne (since the resurrection) in heaven.

Zion, therefore, today, in God’s eyes, is not a geographical place located in modern-day Jerusalem. It is a spiritual place that the people of God of all races inhabit when they get saved. The condition for experiencing Zion is accepting Christ as Lord and Savior.

You are doing a copy and paste of a prepared general speech - by Amil. If you post a book - I am not going use up a bunch of energy to read it, nor respond to it.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The wrath of God comes when Jesus comes and destroys all the wicked. There is no one left to go into your supposed tribulation after the coming of Christ. That will never happen. That is a Pretrib innovation.

I heard you the first time.

I think you made a typo (the part in blue). I think you meant into the millennium. Premils hold the belief that the millennium is after the Second Coming of Christ.

In Premil belief, the great tribulation is before, not after, the Second Coming of Christ.

The rapture is before the great tribulation begins. Jesus's coming for the rapture is not His Second Coming.

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
God has attached Him Name to Israel and Jerusalem here on earth before all mankind. God's good name, His Holy Name, is tied the restoration of Israel, Jerusalem, the Jews.

Not so. Quite the opposite! They are under the wrath of God. Anyone who rejects Jesus is of their father the devil. The Bible teaches that only those who enter into the new covenant and accept Christ are saved. The rest are children of the devil. The Jews boasted, “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39).

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

He identifies their true father as Satan. This would have been explosive and offensive to these proud religiously Jewish leaders. Jesus demonstrated that favor with Him didn’t come through natural pedigree but rather spiritual pedigree. Those Jews who rejected God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any way considered as God’s chosen people. They were children of the devil and they were heading to hell.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:29-33: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Jesus never missed the mark.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?

A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

Jesus admonished the church in Smyrna in Revelation 2:9, “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”

Those who reject Christ are indeed of their father the devil. You dismiss these crystal-clear censures from Jesus, arguing: "it's one specific synagogue he addressing, I think." Well, He actually condemns 2 churches here that had large Jewish communities living around them that were apostate. Judaism is apostate. It has rejected their Messiah and is therefore condemned and unregenerate.

The Lord similarly condemns the unbelieving natural Jew in Revelation 3:9 for imagining that he was real Jew. Whilst speaking to the church at Philadelphia, He said, “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Christ succinctly describes the Jews that rejects Him and what He achieved at the cross as those who “say they are Jews, and are not.” What he is saying is: they are not real Jews. The Philadelphia Church, which would have been overwhelmingly Gentile, was here promised that God would cause the unbelieving Jews to come and worship at their feet. The Lord again exposed the delusion that did beguile (and does beguile) the natural Christ-rejecting Jews “which say they are Jews” but “are not, but do lie.” The true Jew today is a believer in Yahweh that is spiritually circumcised in heart, not merely physically circumcised.

sovereigngrace · Sep 10, 2021

Douggg said:
I heard you the first time.

I think you made a typo (the part in blue). I think you meant into the millennium. Premils hold the belief that the millennium is after the Second Coming of Christ.

In Premil belief, the great tribulation is before, not after, the Second Coming of Christ.

The rapture is before the great tribulation begins. Jesus's coming for the rapture is not His Second Coming.

No typo. You teach a second and third coming. But the wrath of God comes when Jesus returns. It negates the likelihood of a future 7-years tribulation.

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Not so. Quite the opposite! They are under the wrath of God. Anyone who rejects Jesus is of their father the devil. The Bible teaches that only those who enter into the new covenant and accept Christ are saved. The rest are children of the devil. The Jews boasted, “Abraham is our father” (John 8:39).

Christ responded to the ignorance of the Jewish leaders: “If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word. Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it” (vv 39-44).

He identifies their true father as Satan. This would have been explosive and offensive to these proud religiously Jewish leaders. Jesus demonstrated that favor with Him didn’t come through natural pedigree but rather spiritual pedigree. Those Jews who rejected God’s offer of salvation were not under blessing but under a curse. They were not in any way considered as God’s chosen people. They were children of the devil and they were heading to hell.

Jesus said in Matthew 23:29-33: “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous, And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets. Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets. Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers. Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Jesus never missed the mark.

John the Baptist proclaimed in John 3:36, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

There is nothing vague, ambiguous or complicated here. God only sees those in Christ and those not in Christ. There is also no room for fence-sitting here. If a Jew or Gentile (in the Old Testament or the New Testament) loves the Messiah Christ He is one of God's chosen, if he doesn't he is under the wrath of God. Simple!!! Basically: accept Jesus and God accepts you, reject Him and God rejects you.

I John 2:22-23 solemnly asks, “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ (or Messiah)? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.”

Q. Does Israel overwhelmingly deny “that Jesus is the Christ” or Messiah?

A. Absolutely. Therefore, Judaism without Christ is a counterfeit religion. It is apostate! Any belief that denies Christ His rightful place as man's sole Redeemer is destined for destruction. Anyone that rejects Christ (1) is antichrist, (2) belongs to Satan, (3) is part of the kingdom of darkness and is (4) bound for the Lake of Fire.

Jesus said in John 15:23, “He that hateth me hateth my Father also.”

The whole mission of Jesus Christ in introducing the new covenant was to unite Jew and Gentile in salvation. Nothing could be clearer in the New Testament!

Jesus admonished the church in Smyrna in Revelation 2:9, “I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.”

Those who reject Christ are indeed of their father the devil. You dismiss these crystal-clear censures from Jesus, arguing: "it's one specific synagogue he addressing, I think." Well, He actually condemns 2 churches here that had large Jewish communities living around them that were apostate. Judaism is apostate. It has rejected their Messiah and is therefore condemned and unregenerate.

The Lord similarly condemns the unbelieving natural Jew in Revelation 3:9 for imagining that he was real Jew. Whilst speaking to the church at Philadelphia, He said, “Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.”

In Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 Christ succinctly describes the Jews that rejects Him and what He achieved at the cross as those who “say they are Jews, and are not.” What he is saying is: they are not real Jews. The Philadelphia Church, which would have been overwhelmingly Gentile, was here promised that God would cause the unbelieving Jews to come and worship at their feet. The Lord again exposed the delusion that did beguile (and does beguile) the natural Christ-rejecting Jews “which say they are Jews” but “are not, but do lie.” The true Jew today is a believer in Yahweh that is spiritually circumcised in heart, not merely physically circumcised.

You are taking one specific group of Jews, the Pharisees, and then taking a broad brush and painting all of the Jews who are not yet Christians in the same manner.

Have you ever stopped to think mankind is a victim of Satan's treachery ?

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
No typo. You teach a second and third coming. But the wrath of God comes when Jesus returns. It negates the likelihood of a future 7-years tribulation.

You are misrepresenting what pretrib, premil teaches - pretrib, premil is NOT saying second and third coming. That is your twisting. Please stop twisting.

And for the umpteenth time - there is no 7 year "tribulation". For most of the first half of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9, the world will be saying peace and safety, thinking it is in the beginning years of the messianic age.

Please stop twisting.

pretrib, premil believe that the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9 is still future (close at hand).

Douggg · Sep 10, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
No typo.

Then you have absolutely no understanding of the pretrib, premil widely held view.

I am not talking about the few odd-ball positions - but the general widely held view of pretrib, premil. Which is....

rapture - then the great tribulation - then Jesus's Second Coming - then the millennium.

Timtofly · Sep 11, 2021

Guojing said:
If you see the sequence of events described in Rev 20, the GWT judgement is after the 1000 year reign.

But Christ 2nd coming ushers in the 1000 year reign.

Matthew 25 is not about the GWT. It is about the final harvest at the Second Coming.

Timtofly · Sep 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
What Scripture corroborates the Premillennial interpretation of Revelation 20 that Satan will be bound for a time-span of 1000 years after the Second Advent, then released for a "little season" to deceive the nations, and then destroy them? There is no other Scripture that teaches this doctrine. Premils force that upon the sacred text.

I am not forcing any theology onto the text.

GOD claims only one resurrection, verse 4. Then a period of 1000 years, then the NHNE. That is all those people face. Can you show me where those people face two judgments? Neither can I, and I am certainly not forcing that onto the text.

Timtofly · Sep 11, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Sorry Tim, because NONE of the verses in 1 Corinthians support anything in your indoctrinated theory. Below are ALL verses in 1 Corinthians that even "hint" of the last days are listed.

(The blue highlighted verses do not indicate even "suggest" a literal 1,000 year millennium, a third temple where a glorified Christ returns to a sin-cursed earth to do a re-do of his first and only coming before the end of this age.)

***************************************************************************
1Cor 1:7-8...so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ; who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 3:13-15...each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done...If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward...If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

1Cor 4:5 - Therefore do not pronounce judgment before the time, before the Lord comes, who will bring to light the things now hidden in darkness and will disclose the purposes of the heart. Then every man will receive his commendation from God.

1Cor 5:5...you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

1Cor 10:11...Now these things happened to them as a warning, but they were written down for our instruction, upon whom the end of the ages has come.

1Cor 11:32...But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that we may not be condemned along with the world.

1Cor 15:16-17...For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised. If Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins....(vs. 21-26) For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For [Jesus] must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. (compare 1 Cor 15:54)

1Cor 15:27-28..."For God has put all things in subjection under [Jesus'] feet." But when it says, "All things are put in subjection under [Jesus]," it is plain that [God] is excepted who put all things under [Jesus]. When all things are subjected to [God], then the Son himself will also be subjected to [God] who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.

1Cor 15:51-54...Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable nature must put on the imperishable, and this mortal nature must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory."

2Cor 1:13-14...For we write you nothing but what you can read and understand; I hope you will understand fully, as you have understood in part, that you can be proud of us as we can be of you, on the day of the Lord Jesus.

*************************************************************************
1Cor 10:13...No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Compare:
2Pe 1:3-9...His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, that through these [things]you may escape from the corruption that is in the world because of passion, and become partakers of the divine nature. For this very reason make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. For if these things are yours and abound, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For whoever lacks these things is blind and shortsighted and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.

So how do we avoid (escape) being tempted to do the things that are "common to man?"

Answer: By prayer, studying God's Word and living by them to the best of our ability.

Is 1 Cor 10:13 referring to "a rapture of the church" by using the word "escape?"

Answer: NO, the text does not support that false theory made by, and vigorously promoted man/men is the early 1800's.

Why would the Second Coming as Paul described the event, have to include all of the hundreds of specific detail of every single prophecy found in the Bible, in every verse Paul wrote? Paul only covered about 3 seconds worth of a 1000 year time frame.

Guojing · Sep 11, 2021

Timtofly said:
Matthew 25 is not about the GWT. It is about the final harvest at the Second Coming.

I was commenting on your statement "The GWT will be seen at the Second Coming"

Timtofly · Sep 11, 2021

Moriah's Song said:
Sorry Tim, but you must have a different Bible than I have because neither of those 2 theories are in my RSV Bible.

The birth of the "church" composed of BOTH 12 converted Jewish apostles along with thousands of converted Jews on the day of Pentecost and later thousands and thousands of Gentiles joined the new Christian movement which is extensively revealed in Ephesians.

The New Covenant of Jeremiah 31:31 was fulfilled by Jesus in Matthew 26:26-29 and confirmed and referred to in other NT books. Denying the New Covenant could be the demise of many.

Let me ask you this: Do you take communion and have you been baptized? If not, how do you determine that you are in the "Body of Christ.?"

I follow scripture - not J.N. Darby of the 1800's.

The whole of the OT was the firstfruits. They entered Paradise at the time of the Cross. The church has been following them one by one for the last 1991 years. At the Second Coming, those alive on earth, will make the church complete.

But God is not done with the earth, until the end. After the Second Coming, then cometh the end. The end is after the Second Coming, just like the Second Coming was after the Cross.

The fulness of the Gentiles is the part where Messiah was cut off. The promise made to Daniel's people was put on hold, until Christ the Prince comes, the Second Coming, to finish what Jesus started when Christ was cut off.

Gentiles are not Daniel's people no matter how much theology spins it's private opinion. You all dismiss my posts as my opinion, but all theology is just human opinion. Some human at one time "posted" their thought, and others agreed or disagreed. Many times the truth was just snuffed out, because people were annoyed, and convicted, so they martyred any who gave an opinion.

Timtofly · Sep 11, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The wrath of God comes when Jesus comes and destroys all the wicked. There is no one left to go into your supposed tribulation after the coming of Christ. That will never happen. That is a Pretrib innovation.

There is no GT until Christ brings the angels. The angels are not here for comfort. They are here for judgment. Are you making a claim they come and just do nothing? You do not give them time to do anything. You foist your view instead of letting Scripture do the talking. No one is denying all this grand judgment you point out. In fact it will be GT, not just great tribulation, or prolonged, hundreds of years of tribulation. The Second Coming is after the tribulation of those days, so no peace is leading up to the Second Coming. It comes after tribulation and brings the greatest tribulation ever, and the angels are involved. In fact ALL OF THEM. By the time the 5th Trumpet sounds the other third will join the group. There will be no more heaven, because all the stars will now be walking around on the earth.

Yes, all of Adam's flesh and blood will physically die, every last one of them. This is not a resurrection. This is Death and destruction.

Yes there is a new heaven and earth. God still has 1000 more years planned for this one. Even better than before the Flood, that changed the earth. If any doubt there was a new earth and heaven when Noah left the ark, they are not paying attention to the detail of the account. It was not a NHNE.

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