The Trend Toward Atheism

Fervent · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I just saw this headline in the New York Times and wondered...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The New Chief Chaplain at Harvard? An Atheist.
The elevation of Greg Epstein, author of “Good Without God,” reflects a broader trend of young people who increasingly identify as spiritual but religiously nonaffiliated.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

What is wrong with us?
We are seen as less and less attractive to the world.
I suppose we would blame them. But are they really to blame?

Who is "us?" And how do we know there is something wrong?

If there is something genuinely wrong, it is that we do not honor the word of God as we should. Too often in apologetics we rely on philosophy rather than Scripture, too often our pulpits use some verse as a jumping off point rather than exegeting what the text means and how it applies to us, too often we get stuck in endless debates about doctrine rather than being unified in a handful of essentials. Too often we allow the audience to shape the message rather than calling them higher. Too many in western christendom have adopted modernist rational skepticism over Biblical credulity. Too often we "defend our faith" rather than applying Biblical truth to reveal the empty promises of other viewpoints.

com7fy8 · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
That's what I mean by blaming them.
Why would they want to hold onto their sin if we had shown them a better way?
The truth is... we haven't.

But there are things a person can not see until he or she has trusted in Jesus, and becomes able to submit to God and discover all He does with the person.

Even so . . . yes . . . we need to be good examples, and God can use us to help people to know God.

Jamdoc · Sep 9, 2021

parousia70 said:
As mentioned, Applying the New Heaven and earth prophesies to the present and fulfilled New Covenant reality is NOT a view that is exclusive to Full Preterism in any way. Not even close.

Not my job to disprove your accusations.
It's YOUR Job to prove them.
Curious that you can't, yet you still cling in apparent desparation to the accusation, seemingly as if your life depended on it, even in total and complete absense of any evidence that would support it.

You believe the second coming of Christ happened
You believe we're on the new earth

Any partial preterist still believes that the second coming of Christ is still future and that the new earth is still future.
Most amillennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ, and even some postmillennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ.
I'd say the biggest difference between a full preterist and any other eschatalogical position, is belief in a future second coming.
If you believe that the second coming already happened, you are a full preterist and should not be in this subforum at all.

Fervent · Sep 9, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Most amillennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ, and even some postmillennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ.

Most if not all "postmillenialists"(if ever there was a misleading label, it's that) believe in a future coming of Christ. The difference between a postmillenialist and a premillenialist is that a postmillenialist believes the kingdom will prevail before the king takes his proper place and evil is removed, and premillenialists think that no matter what we do the world is just going to get worse until the church is raptured and then there will be 7 years of wrath before Christ returns.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
““Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:11-12‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Does that mean that we should work hard to be unlovable?

Luke 2:52 NIV
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Acts 2:46-47 NIV
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Fervent said:
If there is something genuinely wrong, it is that we do not honor the word of God as we should. Too often in apologetics we rely on philosophy rather than Scripture, too often our pulpits use some verse as a jumping off point rather than exegeting what the text means and how it applies to us, too often we get stuck in endless debates about doctrine rather than being unified in a handful of essentials. Too often we allow the audience to shape the message rather than calling them higher. Too many in western christendom have adopted modernist rational skepticism over Biblical credulity. Too often we "defend our faith" rather than applying Biblical truth to reveal the empty promises of other viewpoints.

What do you expect for an outcome?

Fervent · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
What do you expect for an outcome?

Outcome of what?

bbbbbbb · Sep 9, 2021

Fervent said:
Most if not all "postmillenialists"(if ever there was a misleading label, it's that) believe in a future coming of Christ. The difference between a postmillenialist and a premillenialist is that a postmillenialist believes the kingdom will prevail before the king takes his proper place and evil is removed, and premillenialists think that no matter what we do the world is just going to get worse until the church is raptured and then there will be 7 years of wrath before Christ returns.

You have oversimplified both positions. Some Post Millennialists are waiting for the Millennium to happen after which Christ will return. Others are attempting to create the Millennial Kingdom on earth. That was one of the great motivations for the American Civil War. The Battle Hymn of the Republic (Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord) celebrated the fact that the abolition of slavery would bring in the Millennial Kingdom. When hopes of that were dashed in the Depression beginning in 1873 and again in 1893 they shifted their focus to the prohibition of alcohol. That did succeed for a few years until Prohibition was defeated.

Not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists. There are a great many who are not at all and resent being classed with Dispensationalists.

Fervent · Sep 9, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
You have oversimplified both positions. Some Post Millennialists are waiting for the Millennium to happen after which Christ will return. Others are attempting to create the Millennial Kingdom on earth. That was one of the great motivations for the American Civil War. The Battle Hymn of the Republic (Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord) celebrated the fact that the abolition of slavery would bring in the Millennial Kingdom. When hopes of that were dashed in the Depression beginning in 1873 and again in 1893 they shifted their focus to the prohibition of alcohol. That did succeed for a few years until Prohibition was defeated.

Not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists. There are a great many who are not at all and resent being classed with Dispensationalists.

Thank you for the information. Perhaps my simplification was over done, but given the complexity of the various positions any grouping like this is bound to lead to oversimplifications. I was unaware that there are non-dispensational premillenialists, so I do appreciate that bit of knowledge. Though most postmillenialists I've known bridle at the supposed defining trait being the millenium(as do most amillenium adherents) because the only position that their position on the millenium is the defining feature of is premillenialism.

bbbbbbb · Sep 9, 2021

Fervent said:
Thank you for the information. Perhaps my simplification was over done, but given the complexity of the various positions any grouping like this is bound to lead to oversimplifications. I was unaware that there are non-dispensational premillenialists, so I do appreciate that bit of knowledge. Though most postmillenialists I've known bridle at the supposed defining trait being the millenium(as do most amillenium adherents) because the only position that their position on the millenium is the defining feature of is premillenialism.

Actually, Dispensationalism is a relatively recent development in eschatology, dating from the early 1800's. Prior to that pre-millennial Christians did not have a crisp view of the Great Tribulation nor did they view scripture as the unfolding of God's will in various eras, commonly called dispensations today.

Today there are some Dispensationalists who are backing away from the implication that because God had Israel in His will during the dispensation of the Law and now has replaced Israel with the Church during the current dispensation therefore Israel has no future during the Millennium.

Jamdoc · Sep 10, 2021

Fervent said:
Most if not all "postmillenialists"(if ever there was a misleading label, it's that) believe in a future coming of Christ. The difference between a postmillenialist and a premillenialist is that a postmillenialist believes the kingdom will prevail before the king takes his proper place and evil is removed, and premillenialists think that no matter what we do the world is just going to get worse until the church is raptured and then there will be 7 years of wrath before Christ returns.

bbbbbbb said:
You have oversimplified both positions. Some Post Millennialists are waiting for the Millennium to happen after which Christ will return. Others are attempting to create the Millennial Kingdom on earth. That was one of the great motivations for the American Civil War. The Battle Hymn of the Republic (Mine Eyes Have Seen the Glory of the Coming of the Lord) celebrated the fact that the abolition of slavery would bring in the Millennial Kingdom. When hopes of that were dashed in the Depression beginning in 1873 and again in 1893 they shifted their focus to the prohibition of alcohol. That did succeed for a few years until Prohibition was defeated.

Not all premillennialists are Dispensationalists. There are a great many who are not at all and resent being classed with Dispensationalists.

Fervent said:
Thank you for the information. Perhaps my simplification was over done, but given the complexity of the various positions any grouping like this is bound to lead to oversimplifications. I was unaware that there are non-dispensational premillenialists, so I do appreciate that bit of knowledge. Though most postmillenialists I've known bridle at the supposed defining trait being the millenium(as do most amillenium adherents) because the only position that their position on the millenium is the defining feature of is premillenialism.

Okay so.. I just said "some post millennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ", because I do not know how many in that crowd believed that as I do not know many post millennialists. So I didn't want to jump too far into it and make a claim that was not true, it just wasn't exactly detailed. I just knew the few postmillennialists I've talked to still were futurists they still believed in a future second coming of Christ.

But my point was, eschatologically speaking, only the full preterists believe that the second coming of Christ already happened, right?

Saint Steven · Sep 10, 2021

Fervent said:
Outcome of what?

If we "honor the word of God as we should", suppress philosophy and rational thought. Limit theological essentials (to what?), end the debates on doctrine (gag order), suppress "modernist rational skepticism over Biblical credulity" (put on blinders), and "defend our faith" (whose faith exactly). What would be the outcome? Would that end atheism? Or accelerate it?

Fervent said: ↑
If there is something genuinely wrong, it is that we do not honor the word of God as we should. Too often in apologetics we rely on philosophy rather than Scripture, too often our pulpits use some verse as a jumping off point rather than exegeting what the text means and how it applies to us, too often we get stuck in endless debates about doctrine rather than being unified in a handful of essentials. Too often we allow the audience to shape the message rather than calling them higher. Too many in western christendom have adopted modernist rational skepticism over Biblical credulity. Too often we "defend our faith" rather than applying Biblical truth to reveal the empty promises of other viewpoints.

BNR32FAN · Sep 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Does that mean that we should work hard to be unlovable?

Luke 2:52 NIV
And Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and man.

Acts 2:46-47 NIV
Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47 praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved.

No, it just means that the world will hate us because they hate Christ. Obviously Jesus did not have favor with all man otherwise He wouldn’t have been killed and the apostles obviously didn’t have the favor of all people because they were persecuted and martyred.

Saint Steven · Sep 10, 2021

BNR32FAN said:
No, it just means that the world will hate us because they hate Christ.

I think the sentiment (or lack thereof) that "the world hates Christ", is overused, exaggerated and misapplied.

If we did a survey on the street of passersby, asking them what they thought about Jesus, how many would claim that they hate him? Perhaps more of them would be ambivalent than hateful.

And I would imagine in a similar survey, that more people would hate the church, not because of Jesus, but because of church people and leadership. Many due to their personal bad experiences with the church, not with Jesus.

Agree or disagree?

BNR32FAN · Sep 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think the sentiment (or lack thereof) that "the world hates Christ", is overused, exaggerated and misapplied.

If we did a survey on the street of passersby, asking them what they thought about Jesus, how many would claim that they hate him? Perhaps more of them would be ambivalent than hateful.

And I would imagine in a similar survey, that more people would hate the church, not because of Jesus, but because of church people and leadership. Many due to their personal bad experiences with the church, not with Jesus.

Agree or disagree?

The reason people hate Jesus is because He exposes their sin and demands them to stop. Many people do not like being told how to live “their life”. They want to do what they want, not what God wants because they love their sin. So I would have to kindly disagree since while the idea that they most likely don’t hate Christ seems to be true but the reality of it doesn’t go along with their desire to do as He commands, because face to face Jesus will always demand the sinner to stop sinning and most people do not want to be told what to do. So I believe in that aspect, face to face with Jesus they still prefer their own desires over His and they hate being told they can’t do the things they love to do.

bbbbbbb · Sep 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Okay so.. I just said "some post millennialists still believe in a future coming of Christ", because I do not know how many in that crowd believed that as I do not know many post millennialists. So I didn't want to jump too far into it and make a claim that was not true, it just wasn't exactly detailed. I just knew the few postmillennialists I've talked to still were futurists they still believed in a future second coming of Christ.

But my point was, eschatologically speaking, only the full preterists believe that the second coming of Christ already happened, right?

Actually preterists all believe that the second coming of Christ already happened, probably in A.D. 70. Full preterists firmly believe that all prophecies regarding Christ's coming were fulfilled at that time, ushering in the Millenium which then ended ca. 1070. That creates a huge problem in explaining human history after ca. 1070. Partial preterists believe that Christ did return but that not all prophetic aspects were fulfilled. Some view the return of Christ as non-literal (i.e. he was not physically visible and did not establish a literal throne in the new Jerusalem). Others dismiss the millennium as being non-literal or even as a metaphor for the growth of the universal church over time, not necessarily 1,000 years.

Hmm · Sep 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think the sentiment (or lack thereof) that "the world hates Christ", is overused, exaggerated and misapplied.

I agree. I think hardly anyone hates Christ or even criticises Him much in the secular world where He's almost universally looked up to as the perfect example of a person: loving, forgiving and non-violent. I wish He was regarded as highly in the Christian world! I think most "non-Christians" would say along with Gandhi: "I love your Christ, but not your Christianity". They equate the church with wealth, hypocrisy, an obsession with sex, the insistence on ECT rather than anything Jesus epitomised and stay well away. I can't say I blame them tbh.

Clare73 · Sep 10, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I think the sentiment (or lack thereof) that "the world hates Christ", is overused, exaggerated and misapplied.

If we did a survey on the street of passersby, asking them what they thought about Jesus, how many would claim that they hate him? Perhaps more of them would be ambivalent than hateful.

Agree or disagree?

Nope. . .another lie of man from the thinking of man rather than the thinking of the Scriptures.

Jesus said you are either for him or against him. . .no middle ground (Matthew 12:30).

Jamdoc · Sep 10, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
Actually preterists all believe that the second coming of Christ already happened, probably in A.D. 70. Full preterists firmly believe that all prophecies regarding Christ's coming were fulfilled at that time, ushering in the Millenium which then ended ca. 1070. That creates a huge problem in explaining human history after ca. 1070. Partial preterists believe that Christ did return but that not all prophetic aspects were fulfilled. Some view the return of Christ as non-literal (i.e. he was not physically visible and did not establish a literal throne in the new Jerusalem). Others dismiss the millennium as being non-literal or even as a metaphor for the growth of the universal church over time, not necessarily 1,000 years.

My understanding was that partial preterists believe that the tribulation happened (and perhaps continues to this day), and the Antichrist was Nero, but Jesus still hasn't returned yet

Premillennialists await a future return of Christ and future millennial kingdom, and before Jesus returns the world gets worse and worse and more sinful (which is what I believe and believe the bible teaches clearly, Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21, 2 Thessalonians 2, 2 Timothy 3, Revelation, etc)
Amillennialists and Postmillennialists believe the world will get better and better and more righteous and "usher in" the return of Christ, I don't know if Postmillennialists really stress it but Amillennialists at least acknowledge a "little season" just before the return of Christ.

and full preterists are just completely off their rockers.

bbbbbbb · Sep 10, 2021

Jamdoc said:
My understanding was that partial preterists believe that the tribulation happened (and perhaps continues to this day), and the Antichrist was Nero, but Jesus still hasn't returned yet

Premillennialists await a future return of Christ and future millennial kingdom, and before Jesus returns the world gets worse and worse and more sinful (which is what I believe and believe the bible teaches clearly, Matthew 24/Mark 13/Luke 21, 2 Thessalonians 2, 2 Timothy 3, Revelation, etc)
Amillennialists and Postmillennialists believe the world will get better and better and more righteous and "usher in" the return of Christ, I don't know if Postmillennialists really stress it but Amillennialists at least acknowledge a "little season" just before the return of Christ.

and full preterists are just completely off their rockers.

I entirely agree with you about full preterists. When I first encountered one I thought he was actually joking. It turned out that he wasn't. It seems to me that some Postmillennial Reformed folks in the late twentieth century realized that their views of Postmillenniallism had completely failed and that the millennium was no closer than it had ever been (and was probably a much more distant possibility). They vehemently detested Dispensationalism, but had no eschatology to claim as their own. Thus, they hit the history books and latched onto the Sack of Jerusalem by Titus as the commencement of the Great Tribulation (which is not necessarily an unreasonable view - it was the bginning of tribulations for the Jews as well as Christians). Then they determined that Christ had come as promised at that time, which theologically meant that the Milenium must have commenced ca, A. D. 77. Then they proceeded into a real quagmire from which partial preterism attempted to extricate themselves.

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