Reformed theology scares me.

TedT

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I have a few questions for any Calvinists out there:

1.)Since I have OCD,and struggle to feel love for God,have unwanted doubts,and fear I’m not one of his elect,does that mean I’m not one of his elect?
2.) Does following Arminian theology make me a heretic and an apostate?
3.)Do I have to be a Calvinist to be saved?
4.) are Martin Luthers teachings correct,because I know they lead the e reformation.
5.)This is a big one,I constantly doubt if I’m an elect and fear God doesn’t love me,Does God love me?

Sorry I am not a Calvinist but
1. Doubts and fears are a common course for new converts, not just those with ocd. Faith is an unproven HOPE, Heb 11:1 so focus on your hope in Christ as your saviour and then live the life He has given you, that is, that He predestined for you for all the good things you need to end in heaven.

2. Arminian theology fails to uphold GOD's love to be perfect in that they teach HE stops waiting for some who can saved to repent and accept HIS call to be saved, a failure of a perfect patience when HE IS love and love IS patient 1 Cor 13:4 implying a perfect love is perfectly patient or, in other words, if someone can be saved, ie has not sinned the unforgivable sin, they they will be saved...only those who cannot be saved will not be saved.

3. Because I think Calvinists also lack understanding on a deep level of GOD's loving righteousness and because HIS nature as just is corrupted by their doctrine of UNconditional election and unconditional non-election, I do not accept Calvinist teaching as any better than Arminianism.

4. I have not studied Lutheranism lately enough to speak to it...

5. This just a reworking of point number 1, the fear and trembling all must go thu to become mature in their faith. To much self focus and introspection will interfere with serving others in humility and love which is your calling: Gal 5:13.

It has been said that the soul cannot be soothed by concentrating upon it which only hardens it but the soul is soothed thru the hands, humble and loving works. Not, "what should I feel", but rather "how can I help."
 
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Mark Quayle

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"arbitrary selection." I like that Bob. Calvin lied.
Where did Calvin use the term, 'arbitrary selection'? What was Calvin's lie?

And how did the idea that God does anything capriciously or arbitrarily or for no reason get attributed to Calvinism? And why does nobody on this site change their assumptions about the matter when Calvinists on this site vehemently and repeatedly respond to such claims? Pay attention: We oppose the notion that God does anything without a purpose or reason!
 
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zoidar

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Where did Calvin use the term, 'arbitrary selection'? What was Calvin's lie?

And how did the idea that God does anything capriciously or arbitrarily or for no reason get attributed to Calvinism? And why does nobody on this site change their assumptions about the matter when Calvinists on this site vehemently and repeatedly respond to such claims? Pay attention: We oppose the notion that God does anything without a purpose or reason!

Why people say arbitrary, I believe is because Calvinists don't give the reason why God elects some or I have never heard the reason. So the thinking goes if God elects us before time and it has nothing to do with us, it must be arbitrary.
 
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Clare73

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I recently read an article by cross way that listed “false accusations” against reformed thology(Calvinists) and they had a passage form the synod of Dort that said Gods wrath is upon those who falsely accuse against the theology.I don’t identify as a Calvinist because the doctrine scares me,and this recent week I’ve had tremendous anxiety all because of an article I read by a Calvinist.I said in a previous post that “I hate reformed theology” but now I’m scared Gods wrath will be upon me for not being a Calvinist.

I have a few questions for any Calvinists out there:

1.)Since I have OCD,and struggle to feel love for God,have unwanted doubts,and fear I’m not one of his elect,does that mean I’m not one of his elect?
2.) Does following Arminian theology make me a heretic and an apostate?
3.)Do I have to be a Calvinist to be saved?
4.) are Martin Luthers teachings correct,because I know they lead the e reformation.
5.)This is a big one,I constantly doubt if I’m an elect and fear God doesn’t love me,Does God love me?
Have you sought treatment for your OCD? There are some.

Doctrine cannot be tailored to the needs of believers.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Doctrine cannot be tailored to the needs of believers.
Thank you. Indeed! And the truth is good for the believer! Doctrine made palatable is a different doctrine.

It is in that fact that we find confidence and peace —only in GRACE can we be saved. We cannot earn it. If doctrine becomes Grace, plus a little bit of Works, that saves us, we lose confidence and peace, because instinctively we KNOW we cannot do this well enough. God is the only one who can do this.
 
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Mark Quayle

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The definition of "arbitrary selection" is to choose between two equal things based on nothing about those things - just on a whim, without any reason for selecting one above another. The Bible does not support such notions.

In the Bible "God so Loved the WORLD... yes really" John 3:26 - and NOT "just the FEW of Matt 7 on the Narrow road and entering through the narrow gate".

"arbitrary selection." I like that Bob. Calvin lied.

Why people say arbitrary, I believe is because Calvinists don't give the reason why God elects some or I have never heard the reason. So the thinking goes if God elects us before time and it has nothing to do with us, it must be arbitrary.
Thank you for that explanation.

Ok, maybe I haven't said it as often as I think, but I'm far from the only one who has said it:

God MADE each of us for a particular, different, specific purpose:

1. He made all of us, each, for one purpose or another, and none of us knows God's use and plan for each one of those, except that if one never does believe, he is condemned. (Somehow that gets blown all out of proportion as if he didn't use them for other SPECIFIC causes, such as are mentioned in Romans 9). But if anyone looks back through their life, rebellious or submitted, THAT was part of God's plan for them. What happens in our lives —his use for each one— and our end, is part of why he made everyone.

2. Included in that 'all' that he made, He made the Elect, each, for their particular specific purpose, including everything that happens to them, with them, from them, etc, all according to plan. One thing he has told us about them is that they will be called, born again, believe, and obey etc, but their final end and purpose is to be the specific members of the Bride of Christ. I like to think of the Elect as individual cells in the body, though I know it is more than that (God calls them "members"). They are chosen, not because of worthiness, but because of that particular purpose for which he made them. They are not drawn out of a pool of generic possibles. There is no plan B nor replacements in waiting. He will not fail to accomplish everything he set out to do. Their particular use or purpose in his plan is not what makes them acceptable to his plan, but what he does to them along the way. If one objects that if he (to use a crass parallel) 'bred' them for a particular purpose, each as the particular member of the Bride of Christ he had in mind for them to become, that they are therefore more worthy, I reply that that did not make them worthy nor better than anyone else —just used for that purpose. There is, of course, a whole lot more that could be said along these lines, such as the fact that each of these members, being of the body, is particularly precious and delightful in God's eyes, as is the Bride herself. Also, that she is God's very dwelling place.

God does nothing without a purpose or reason.
 
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BobRyan

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Why people say arbitrary, I believe is because Calvinists don't give the reason why God elects some or I have never heard the reason. So the thinking goes if God elects us before time and it has nothing to do with us, it must be arbitrary.

IN Calvinism the phrase "There but for the grace of God - go I" is taken to mean that in fact there is zero difference between the person who will be saved and one who will remain lost. Both are the exact same "depraved" and no choice or future event or any attribute at all related to a supposed "difference" between them determines who God elects and who He does not.

The moment you say something like "person-A was elect because God saw that person-a would make better choices, or would be more capable, or would be more sincere, or would influence more people" you have taken glory away from God and given it to man. The "choice" to elect one vs the other cannot have anything to do with something about person-A him/her self else it is not "all of God".

In the classic arguments you will find on some Calvinist threads.

God does nothing without a purpose or reason.

That merely begs the question. Arminians will also say God elects one person over the other for a reason and that reason is that God says that person-A will choose to accept the Gospel and person be will choose to reject it.

Everyone can say "there is a reason" but that falls short of what Calvinism means be "UNCONDITIONAL election" which looks for all the world like "arbitrary selection".

" Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would “accept” the offer of the gospel."

=================================

from: What Is Unconditional Election? | Christian Research Institute
UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION DEFINED

The 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith3 states:

God’s decree is not based upon His foreknowledge that, under certain conditions, certain happenings will take place, but is independent of all such foreknowledge.

By His decree, and for the manifestation of His glory, God has predestinated (or foreordained) certain men and angels to eternal life through Jesus Christ, thus revealing His grace. Others, whom He has left to perish in their sins, show the terror of His justice.

The angels and men who are the subjects of God’s predestination are clearly and irreversibly designated, and their number is unalterably fixed.

Before the world was made, God’s eternal, immutable purpose, which originated in the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, moved Him to choose (or to elect), in Christ, certain of mankind to everlasting glory. Out of His mere free grace and love He predestined these chosen ones to life, although there was nothing in them to cause Him to choose them.

Not only has God appointed the elect to glory in accordance with the eternal and free purpose of His will, but He has also foreordained the means by which His purpose will be effected. Since His elect are children of Adam and therefore among those ruined by Adam’s fall into sin, He willed that they should be redeemed by Christ, and effectually called to faith in Christ. Further-more, by the working of His Spirit in due season they are justified, adopted, sanctified, and “kept by His power through faith unto salvation.” None but the elect partake of any of these great benefits.

Notice in the above - the doctrine gets "inside God's head" it knows what He was thinking and knows even what He would not allow Himself to know He was thinking - would not allow His decision to be based on His own foreknowledge but somehow blanked it out for the purpose of that thought when He elected person-A.

If that level of knowing what God thinks and how He thinks it were true - You almost have to "BE God" to be saying such a thing.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Mark Quayle said:
God does nothing without a purpose or reason.


That merely begs the question. Arminians will also say God elects one person over the other for a reason and that reason is that God says that person-A will choose to accept the Gospel and person be will choose to reject it.

That doesn't 'beg the question' at all! To some it does, because they see things only from the point of view of the worth of humans. You probably also think that when I said, "Whatever you can look back and see happened to you in the past, THAT was God's plan", is also begging the question. No. But your description of how Arminians say God elects does demonstrate a begging of the question.

We don't say God looks forward and see who will and who won't, and chooses accordingly. God causes.

Everyone can say "there is a reason" but that falls short of what Calvinism means be "UNCONDITIONAL election" which looks for all the world like "arbitrary selection".

It looks to some like arbitrary selection, because they don't understand the reason, just as Zoidar told me.

" Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would “accept” the offer of the gospel."
That is correct. Not merit, and not because of foreseeing uncaused decisions outside of his control.

Notice in the above - the doctrine gets "inside God's head" it knows what He was thinking and knows even what He would not allow Himself to know He was thinking - would not allow His decision to be based on His own foreknowledge but somehow blanked it out for the purpose of that thought when He elected person-A.

No, it does not pretend to get inside God's head, nor to know what God was thinking (as if we even know what it is for God to think —ridiculous). You place some kind of definition to the Biblical term foreknowledge that it does not. You also (apparently) interpret one phrase —"whom he foreknew he predestined"— with the meaning of "foreknew" as only 'looked forward in time' and no implication of causation. God is not us. We cannot cause to happen in the future without some uncertainty. We are not God. He can do anything he wants, and he will, with no uncertainty, or he is not God. Predestined.

Your description of that site's description of unconditional election is YOUR thinking! You posit a self-contradictory notion —that mere foresight is one way, or reason, why God would choose anyone, who by mere chance, (or perhaps by being better than those who would not make the right choice?) make the right choice*— and then claim they think God would keep himself from doing it that way! NO! God doesn't keep himself from doing it that way any more than he keeps himself from making a rock so big he can't pick it up. God chooses according to his plan. He made each of us for that plan —that reason —that use —that end.

*or are you going to tell me they did it of their own free will, so therefore it was not mere chance nor by being one better than another? What is free will? How did one get it? How does anything happen? GOD CAUSED.

If that level of knowing what God thinks and how He thinks it were true - You almost have to "BE God" to be saying such a thing.

And you are the one doing it —not them!
 
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Maniel

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My take on predestination and being elect, is that God foresaw the future on who would come to believe in Him freely on God's calling to all humanity. Those who are elect, are simply those who have faith in Jesus, and can be called elect because God foresaw it. Personally I don't see a problem in this, we are free to react on his calling, he doesn't interfere with our free-will, even though he knew our reaction.
If you have doubts like I think most people struggle with from time to time in some way or another. Like, we can't see God directly, we feel pain and suffering, we still live in the flesh and have bits of rebellion in us, but you still believe in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour, then I interpret scripture to say that you are His, elect for the Kingdom of God.
 
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zoidar

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Thank you for that explanation.

Ok, maybe I haven't said it as often as I think, but I'm far from the only one who has said it:

God MADE each of us for a particular, different, specific purpose:

1. He made all of us, each, for one purpose or another, and none of us knows God's use and plan for each one of those, except that if one never does believe, he is condemned. (Somehow that gets blown all out of proportion as if he didn't use them for other SPECIFIC causes, such as are mentioned in Romans 9). But if anyone looks back through their life, rebellious or submitted, THAT was part of God's plan for them. What happens in our lives —his use for each one— and our end, is part of why he made everyone.

2. Included in that 'all' that he made, He made the Elect, each, for their particular specific purpose, including everything that happens to them, with them, from them, etc, all according to plan. One thing he has told us about them is that they will be called, born again, believe, and obey etc, but their final end and purpose is to be the specific members of the Bride of Christ. I like to think of the Elect as individual cells in the body, though I know it is more than that (God calls them "members"). They are chosen, not because of worthiness, but because of that particular purpose for which he made them. They are not drawn out of a pool of generic possibles. There is no plan B nor replacements in waiting. He will not fail to accomplish everything he set out to do. Their particular use or purpose in his plan is not what makes them acceptable to his plan, but what he does to them along the way. If one objects that if he (to use a crass parallel) 'bred' them for a particular purpose, each as the particular member of the Bride of Christ he had in mind for them to become, that they are therefore more worthy, I reply that that did not make them worthy nor better than anyone else —just used for that purpose. There is, of course, a whole lot more that could be said along these lines, such as the fact that each of these members, being of the body, is particularly precious and delightful in God's eyes, as is the Bride herself. Also, that she is God's very dwelling place.

God does nothing without a purpose or reason.

I get what you are saying that God has a purpose for each individual. But what is the reason God's purpose for some is just to play a role here on Earth and never be saved, and for others to be elect for His coming kingdom? On what ground does God base His decision for the purpose of each individual?
 
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Mark Quayle

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I get what you are saying that God has a purpose for each individual. But what is the reason God's purpose for some is just to play a role here on Earth and never be saved, and for others to be elect for His coming kingdom? On what ground does God base His decision for the purpose of each individual?

To put God into a human description is faulty, but apparently necessary to some degree, because we don't know how to think outside of our perspective. I like to think, for example, that God's thinking is not very much like ours, not a process as such, not one-thought-following-on-the-heels-of-another, but more like simply who/what he is. He is Love, and many other things; he therefore made the Bride of Christ. But I have to answer your question as though God decided to do what he did with a process of thinking:

(1. Our very limited view) He is not us. We see (at best) the minutiae along the way of his accomplishment, not even 'the architect's drawings'. Yet somehow we attribute our sight as worthy and have no patience with what we don't understand.

(2. The Elect) Thus, he 'decided' to make the Bride of Christ. Therefore, he created her, by means of creating humans and a temporal economy within which they would live and develop, fall and be redeemed, grow and change by his Spirit, come to see and know him and his ways, and each individual to be honed, shaped, added to, trimmed clean and whatever else it takes to prepare the raw material for the final finished 'being' he will be in Heaven. That individual is 'of' Christ.

(3. The Finally Reprobate) He therefore also made those who are part of that shaping, but are not members of the Bride of Christ. They are not of the Body of Christ. They are not "bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh." I wish to denigrate nobody, but to his mind, their loss is not to be compared to the love he has for the Bride. They were made for his purposes and use of them.

(4. Specificity) The Elect and the Reprobate are each person MADE to be their specific part in the production and shaping of the members of the Bride of Christ. "Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."

(5. Suffering and Joy) This is much too long and involved to get into now, but one thing that intrigues me very much is that one purpose of this life, I think, is the telling of the riddle, to which we will see the answer, after the end. What we take for substance now (the suffering and joy) cannot be compared to what is to come. In my remonstrance against the severity of the punishment of the reprobate, I find much comfort in two things:
(a) The superiority of God to the human. There is no way this can be overstated. In this is contained the utter righteousness and purity of God and the depth of the slightest rebellion (sin) against him, and the complete right of his use of his own creation to do whatever he will. We are not even alive, as compared to him, so why would we attribute sentience to ourselves, as though we were therefore somehow beings worthy of his respect?
(b) The change of the reprobate. The truth that "without me you can do nothing" also, in various ways, works out to, 'without me you are nothing'. When all God's graces are removed from what we now see as human-and-therefore-redeemable, they will be utterly corrupt, hardly if at all recognizable as the soul we thought we knew.
(c) The judge of the whole world will do what is right.​

Disclaimer: Again, that whole description is as though God had our sort of processes of thinking. He does not, but I don't know how to explain what you ask without anthropomorphism.

So: Not to repeat what has been said before, but God chooses on the basis of his own counsel and purposes.
 
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zoidar

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To put God into a human description is faulty, but apparently necessary to some degree, because we don't know how to think outside of our perspective. I like to think, for example, that God's thinking is not very much like ours, not a process as such, not one-thought-following-on-the-heels-of-another, but more like simply who/what he is. He is Love, and many other things; he therefore made the Bride of Christ. But I have to answer your question as though God decided to do what he did with a process of thinking:

(1. Our very limited view) He is not us. We see (at best) the minutiae along the way of his accomplishment, not even 'the architect's drawings'. Yet somehow we attribute our sight as worthy and have no patience with what we don't understand.

(2. The Elect) Thus, he 'decided' to make the Bride of Christ. Therefore, he created her, by means of creating humans and a temporal economy within which they would live and develop, fall and be redeemed, grow and change by his Spirit, come to see and know him and his ways, and each individual to be honed, shaped, added to, trimmed clean and whatever else it takes to prepare the raw material for the final finished 'being' he will be in Heaven. That individual is 'of' Christ.

(3. The Finally Reprobate) He therefore also made those who are part of that shaping, but are not members of the Bride of Christ. They are not of the Body of Christ. They are not "bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh." I wish to denigrate nobody, but to his mind, their loss is not to be compared to the love he has for the Bride. They were made for his purposes and use of them.

(4. Specificity) The Elect and the Reprobate are each person MADE to be their specific part in the production and shaping of the members of the Bride of Christ. "Such things must come, but woe to the one through whom they come."

(5. Suffering and Joy) This is much too long and involved to get into now, but one thing that intrigues me very much is that one purpose of this life, I think, is the telling of the riddle, to which we will see the answer, after the end. What we take for substance now (the suffering and joy) cannot be compared to what is to come. In my remonstrance against the severity of the punishment of the reprobate, I find much comfort in two things:
(a) The superiority of God to the human. There is no way this can be overstated. In this is contained the utter righteousness and purity of God and the depth of the slightest rebellion (sin) against him, and the complete right of his use of his own creation to do whatever he will. We are not even alive, as compared to him, so why would we attribute sentience to ourselves, as though we were therefore somehow beings worthy of his respect?
(b) The change of the reprobate. The truth that "without me you can do nothing" also, in various ways, works out to, 'without me you are nothing'. When all God's graces are removed from what we now see as human-and-therefore-redeemable, they will be utterly corrupt, hardly if at all recognizable as the soul we thought we knew.
(c) The judge of the whole world will do what is right.​

Disclaimer: Again, that whole description is as though God had our sort of processes of thinking. He does not, but I don't know how to explain what you ask without anthropomorphism.

So: Not to repeat what has been said before, but God chooses on the basis of his own counsel and purposes.

So in short we can say God's purpose for creating some for destruction and some for heaven, is partly because the reprobate are used for the development/shaping of the elect? Still the question remains, why were you and I chosen to be of the elect, but not my nextdoor neighbour Bob? What is the reason God elected me instead of Bob?

We can say God had a purpose for doing so, and that He chose according His own counsel and purpose. But doesn't that mean that we just don't know why?

P.s. We can leave out from the discussion if we can know we are of the elect or not. I used it as an example. :)
 
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Ceallaigh

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Personally I'm not inclined to embrace a doctrine with unique specifics, that didn't come into existence until 1,500 of years after the church was established. It just doesn't seem likely to me that God didn't enlighten anyone about this until John Calvin came along. Augustine came up with somewhat similar notions 400 years after the church was established, but hardly what's found in Calvinism.
 
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I recently read an article by cross way that listed “false accusations” against reformed thology(Calvinists) and they had a passage form the synod of Dort that said Gods wrath is upon those who falsely accuse against the theology.I don’t identify as a Calvinist because the doctrine scares me,and this recent week I’ve had tremendous anxiety all because of an article I read by a Calvinist.I said in a previous post that “I hate reformed theology” but now I’m scared Gods wrath will be upon me for not being a Calvinist.

I have a few questions for any Calvinists out there:

1.)Since I have OCD,and struggle to feel love for God,have unwanted doubts,and fear I’m not one of his elect,does that mean I’m not one of his elect?
2.) Does following Arminian theology make me a heretic and an apostate?
3.)Do I have to be a Calvinist to be saved?
4.) are Martin Luthers teachings correct,because I know they lead the e reformation.
5.)This is a big one,I constantly doubt if I’m an elect and fear God doesn’t love me,Does God love me?

this is a lot to answer, let me see what i can add to this.
1. If you really want to know if you are saved, read 1John. That book is a test in itself as to if you are saved or not.
2. Doctrine isnt what saves you, it just helps guide your understanding of scripture. I honestly believe that we’ll see catholics, lutherans, etc in Heaven. I think of us having different doctrines or denominations as something God doesnt think is necessary. Either you’re saved, or you’re not. Im reminded of Acts 15 with the council of Jerusalem as well as the tower of Babbel and God split us up into different peoples, languages, etc.
3. No!!
4. Somewhat. Its still better to read luther than joe olsteen or some other false teacher.
5. Welcome to the club. You mentioned your fear of hell as motivation. Thats a great start, but as the Holy Spirit changes you, you will start to see your motivation change from fear of hell to your growing relationship with Jesus. The fear of hell will always be there, and you should use that as motivation to talk to others about Jesus, explain how bad hell will be and that you dont want them to go there.
Wow, thats a lot, but i hope it helps.
 
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Hazelelponi

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I recently read an article by cross way that listed “false accusations” against reformed thology(Calvinists) and they had a passage form the synod of Dort that said Gods wrath is upon those who falsely accuse against the theology.I don’t identify as a Calvinist because the doctrine scares me,and this recent week I’ve had tremendous anxiety all because of an article I read by a Calvinist.I said in a previous post that “I hate reformed theology” but now I’m scared Gods wrath will be upon me for not being a Calvinist.

I have a few questions for any Calvinists out there:

1.)Since I have OCD,and struggle to feel love for God,have unwanted doubts,and fear I’m not one of his elect,does that mean I’m not one of his elect?
2.) Does following Arminian theology make me a heretic and an apostate?
3.)Do I have to be a Calvinist to be saved?
4.) are Martin Luthers teachings correct,because I know they lead the e reformation.
5.)This is a big one,I constantly doubt if I’m an elect and fear God doesn’t love me,Does God love me?

Reformed theology teaches you that works don't save anyone - it is Christ alone who saves.

If you stop trusting in yourself, your works, your feelings (of inadequacy etc because no one of us is adequate) and hang on to Christ's work alone for salvation (regardless of what denomination your a part of, so long as it's a Christian denomination) then you will be saved.

Period. That's reformed theology in a nutshell.

P.S. I'm a Calvinist... all you need to do is trust in Christs work for your salvation; that's what His life, death, and resurrection was about. To save us, because we couldn't save ourselves. Thats not scary at all. He accomplished all.. all you have to do us place all your trust in Him.
 
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TedT

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Why people say arbitrary, I believe is because Calvinists don't give the reason why God elects some or I have never heard the reason. So the thinking goes if God elects us before time and it has nothing to do with us, it must be arbitrary.
If it was not arbitrary then there was a reason and if there was a reason for election and non-election then election as not UNconditional.

No condition does not mean no known reason but absolutely NO reason except HE wanted it to be this way, ie, some sinners saved and some damned. For eternity. For HIS own pleasure though HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, even the wicked:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,
 
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zoidar

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If it was not arbitrary then there was a reason and if there was a reason for election and non-election then election as not UNconditional.

No condition does not mean no known reason but absolutely NO reason except HE wanted it to be this way, ie, some sinners saved and some damned. For eternity. For HIS own pleasure though HE takes no pleasure in the death of anyone, even the wicked:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked,

Hm, but most Reformed people say it's not arbitrary.

In #33 (I know you responded to #23) I was not asking why God creates some for heaven, and others for other purposes, but what God bases His decision on to elect Fred for salvation but not Bob. I never got an answer to that. Maybe you got a good answer?
 
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Hazelelponi

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Hm, but most Reformed people say it's not arbitrary.

In #33 (I know you responded to #23) I was not asking why God creates some for heaven, and others for other purposes, but what God bases His decision on to elect Fred for salvation but not Bob. I never got an answer to that. Maybe you got a good answer?

TULIP and Reformed Theology: Unconditional Election

^^^ read this
 
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TedT

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Hm, but most Reformed people say it's not arbitrary.
Of course they do..they know that what it means an even Calvin supposedly agreed: Calvin even sympathetically declares "I confess that this decree ought to appal us", specifically, when we think of reprobation according to human reason alone (Wendel 281), http://www.reformedtheology.ca/calvin.html

Unconditional election means that no condition was found in those HE elected to cause HIM to elect them nor was any condition found in those who were left to reprobation to cause HIM to pass over them for election. Everyone was totally equal in not having any condition in themselves that caused their election or reprobation. Period.

After accepting this they then go against Calvin and say that '...but the decision to elect some and not others was NOT arbitrary, ie , not based upon a choice based upon no reason at all' because they understand that this is untenable to everyone but Calvin.

My full study of this topic is chapter length but i will post it if requested...

Unconditional election means unconditional non-election, people being damned before they ever sinned, a phrase which denotes their innocence. Unconditional election means everyone was just as acceptable for election as everyone but some did not receive it.

1 Timothy 5:21 I charge thee before GOD and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the ELECT angels. Since there are elect angels we can assume that the demonic angels were passed over for election or not considered for election. Angels do not presumably have any racial solidarity, ie, they all are holy or sinful by their own choice, not by anyone else's choice. So now we have to answer the question: were some elected before or after the fall of the Satanic rebellion?

IF they were elected / chosen before the fall then there is no stated reason for the non-election of the others. Unconditional, unmerited, election then also means unconditional unmerited non-election, ie, for no lack of merit or sinful condition at all some were passed over for salvation and NOT chosen to be saved if they should ever sin.

What can we make of such a supposition? Can we say it is loving? Righteous? Just? The best we can say is HE is sovereign and if HE chose this way then who are you to argue, which is not a real answer at all. Why teach us HE is loving, righteous and just if it has no meaning in the biggest question in their existence: Why were some passed over for election!!!

[ASIDE: It is entirely possible that the decision for some to receive unconditional unmerited election and others to receive unmerited rejection for election with no indication that this decision was loving, righteous or just could have precipitated the Satanic war in heaven when the non-elect were subject to a decision that was NOT loving, righteous or just so they committed themselves to war, putting their faith in the belief that YHWH was a false god and a liar, unworthy of being their GOD.]


This is what unconditional implies. It implies 'no reason', not just an 'unknown reason' because if there was a reason there would be merit to being on the side of the reason. Unconditional election means everyone was just as acceptable for election as everyone but some did not receive it....that is what 'without merit' also means! That does NOT sound like YHWH at all. IF they were passed over for a evil they did then there is a righteous reason to their being passed over and to the election of those that were not passed over but who got the promise of election because they did not do that evil!!

IF election was a response to the Satanic rebellion to reward those angels who did not rebel and to pass over those angels who did rebel and condemn them on the spot, then election by merit makes sense. Their rebellion to the command to put their faith in the Son and to love one another which they heard in the beginning* is then the reason they were passed over to be HIS Bride. The choice by some to accept HIM as their GOD and to put their faith in in HIS Son was then the reason they were elected based upon the merit of this choice to obey the commandment.

*1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. I believe that John is referring to the loving purpose GOD has for each of us: 1 John 3:23 And this is His commandment, That we should believe on the name of His Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave us commandment.

Thus we probably have a precedent in the angels for election being based upon merit and proper free will decisions being the condition of being elected. And since unconditional election is apparently false in the first people elected, I strongly suggest that it is also wrongly used for sinful men who were also elected in the beginning before the foundation of the world, Ephesians 1:4.
 
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