Is there salvation without Mary?

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

robycop3 said:
The context of Matt. 13 indicates those men believed Jesus was just an ordinary man.
Matt. 13:54 When He had come to His own country, He taught them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished and said, “Where did this Man get this wisdom and these mighty works? 55 Is this not the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary? And His brothers James, Joses, Simon, and Judas? 56 And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this Man get all these things?” 57 So they were offended at Him. Not one hint that those siblings were anything but Mary's children.

And people supposed that Joseph was His biological father, as the Gospels also indicate. What of it? And besides: that has nothing to do with my point. If they were His brothers and sisters in another sense than biological then people would have still called them that. My point remains that the exact sense is undefined.

robycop3 · Sep 9, 2021

prodromos said:
According to you, Jesus was the eldest and so would have had tremendous influence on His younger siblings. He would have been the perfect eldest brother and they could not have done other than look up to Him. Scripture doesn't bear that out though. They try to control Him and direct His activities, which is consistent with older brothers of their younger celebrity brother while in complete contrast with the position of authority the eldest would have over His younger siblings, especially since their father Joseph is no longer around.

We don't know when Joe died, but from the cross, Jesus directed John to take His place as the guardian of Mary, which would've been the oldest bro's place. There's simply nothing in Scripture that makes Jesus' bros. older than He.

robycop3 · Sep 9, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
And people supposed that Joseph was His biological father, as the Gospels also indicate. What of it? And besides: that has nothing to do with my point. If they were His brothers and sisters in another sense than biological then people would have still called them that. My point remains that the exact sense is undefined.

With all due respect, context indicates to me that the Nazarenes considered Jesus and those siblings to be children of the same parents.

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

robycop3 said:
With all due respect, context indicates to me that the Nazarenes considered Jesus and those siblings to be children of the same parents.

I don't see that at all and even if they did I do not see how it matters what they thought. Not to mention that at least two of those brothers listed are named as sons of some other woman/women (memory fails) in the Gospels themselves, which really weakens the whole thing.

robycop3 · Sep 9, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
I don't see that at all and even if they did I do not see how it matters what they thought. Not to mention that at least two of those brothers listed are named as sons of some other woman/women (memory fails) in the Gospels themselves, which really weakens the whole thing.

All the bros. had names that were very common among Jews of that time, as did Mary. It was almost certainly some other men with the same names, as there's no indication the ones of Matt. 27:56 & Mark 15:40 & 16:1 were Jesus' bros. (There were at least 2 other Marys besides His mom among His followers.) You gents are simply trying to support the false notion that Mary, Jesus' mom, was a perpetual virgin. (Joseph didn't marry her just to be a household keeper.)

Abaxvahl · Sep 9, 2021

robycop3 said:
All the bros. had names that were very common among Jews of that time, as did Mary. It was almost certainly some other men with the same names, as there's no indication the ones of Matt. 27:56 & Mark 15:40 & 16:1 were Jesus' bros. (There were at least 2 other Marys besides His mom among His followers.) You gents are simply trying to support the false notion that Mary, Jesus' mom, was a perpetual virgin. (Joseph didn't marry her just to be a household keeper.)

You've proven nothing, and people are simply supporting an idea God Himself stated, just as people say that Jesus is God.

prodromos · Sep 9, 2021

robycop3 said:
We don't know when Joe died, but from the cross, Jesus directed John to take His place as the guardian of Mary, which would've been the oldest bro's place. There's simply nothing in Scripture that makes Jesus' bros. older than He.

Its crazy how you take a verse in Scripture which supports Jesus being an only child of Mary, and twist it to claim He wasn't. If Jesus was the eldest of multiple children, it was His place to leave His mother in the care of those younger siblings, not to take their mother away from them.

bbbbbbb · Sep 9, 2021

prodromos said:
Its crazy how you take a verse in Scripture which supports Jesus being an only child of Mary, and twist it to claim He wasn't. If Jesus was the eldest of multiple children, it was His place to leave His mother in the care of those younger siblings, not to take their mother away from them.

If Jesus Christ was in His early 30's when He was crucified his younger siblings would assuredly have reached adulthood by that time and would not have needed anyone to look after them.

prodromos · Sep 10, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
If Jesus Christ was in His early 30's when He was crucified his younger siblings would assuredly have reached adulthood by that time and would not have needed anyone to look after them.

The Apostle John had a mother. He was also an adult. Your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

robycop3 · Sep 10, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
You've proven nothing, and people are simply supporting an idea God Himself stated, just as people say that Jesus is God.

Actually, I simply repeated Scriptural proof that you RCs don't like to hear.

robycop3 · Sep 10, 2021

prodromos said:
Its crazy how you take a verse in Scripture which supports Jesus being an only child of Mary, and twist it to claim He wasn't. If Jesus was the eldest of multiple children, it was His place to leave His mother in the care of those younger siblings, not to take their mother away from them.

Jesus, being God, consigned His mom to the person He knew would look after her best, bro. or not.

prodromos · Sep 10, 2021

robycop3 said:
Jesus, being God, consigned His mom to the person He knew would look after her best, bro. or not.

That is your unscriptural opinion.

bbbbbbb · Sep 10, 2021

prodromos said:
That is your unscriptural opinion.

What is your scriptural opinion?

Lukaris · Sep 10, 2021

Why did the Lord have have to entrust the care of His mother to the apostle John & not his alleged younger siblings? Why does he tell the apostle John to refer to His mother as also the apostle’s mother?

John 19:25-28.

concretecamper · Sep 10, 2021

bbbbbbb said:
If Jesus Christ was in His early 30's when He was crucified his younger siblings would assuredly have reached adulthood by that time and would not have needed anyone to look after them.

I think you need to re-think your answer. @prodromos wasnt speaking of someone taking care of the children.

concretecamper · Sep 10, 2021

robycop3 said:
Jesus, being God, consigned His mom to the person He knew would look after her best, bro. or not.

3 possibilities:
1. If Jesus was the eldest brother, He would have charged a younger sibling to take care of The Blessed Mother
2. If Jesus was not the eldest sibling, He would have not charged anyone to take care of the Blessed Mother.
3. Jesus was the only sibling and therefore was free (according to Jewish custom) to charge John with caring for the Blessed Mother.

So, did all His siblings die before the crucifixions? Do you see if you take this event in historical context, it mean HE HAD NO OTHER SIBLING?

robycop3 · Sep 10, 2021

prodromos said:
That is your unscriptural opinion.

Scripture is plain that He assigned John to look after her by calling John "her son" & Mary "John's mother".

robycop3 · Sep 10, 2021

concretecamper said:
3 possibilities:
1. If Jesus was the eldest brother, He would have charged a younger sibling to take care of The Blessed Mother
2. If Jesus was not the eldest sibling, He would have not charged anyone to take care of the Blessed Mother.
3. Jesus was the only sibling and therefore was free (according to Jewish custom) to charge John with caring for the Blessed Mother.

So, did all His siblings die before the crucifixions? Do you see if you take this event in historical context, it mean HE HAD NO OTHER SIBLING?

Not at all. We don't know what His siblings(including His sisters) were doing when He was crucified. Perhaps they'd fled for fear of being crucified as well? We don't know.

concretecamper · Sep 10, 2021

robycop3 said:
Not at all. We don't know what His siblings(including His sisters) were doing when He was crucified. Perhaps they'd fled for fear of being crucified as well? We don't know.

thanks for the guess. I'll stick with a balanced interpretation of scripture.

prodromos · Sep 10, 2021

robycop3 said:
Scripture is plain that He assigned John to look after her by calling John "her son" & Mary "John's mother".

But the explanation you gave was unscriptural.

Is there salvation without Mary?

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