What it means to have dead faith

Albion said:

I'm not sure that's quite right. The end result is the same (no works), but James in his Epistle isn't saying that if a person with real Faith, as opposed to belief, doesn't "put any effort into doing good deeds" then his Faith remains dormant, etc.

What he's saying is that a person doesn't have Faith if he doesn't live like it. That's because it's impossible to have Faith and not seek to do good.

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What did I say that you disagree with? Nothing you just said is different from what I said.

Dead equals nonexistent faith. No actions equals dead. No action equals no faith. Period

It is not that no action results in “dormant” faith. No action results in no faith equals no salvation.

FreeGrace2 said:

So you think James meant that salvation REQUIRES works? Really?

There's more than one way to explain v.26.

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No, not “works of the Law” as Paul makes plain through many of his letters, but, yes, it most certainly requires action.

Rom 10:10 makes that plain when it clearly says that confession “with the mouth” leads to salvation. Jesus Himself said that those who hear the Word, believe it and are baptized will be saved. Acts 3:19 says that repentance leads to forgiveness of sins.

most certainly action on man’s part is required to receive salvation.

Doug Brents said:

What did I say that you disagree with? Nothing you just said is different from what I said.

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This particular topic does involve a lot of hair-splitting, I agree, and slight changes in wording can change the meaning.

What I read your post to be saying is that the message criticizes the person who has Faith but is half-hearted about exercising it. I think it is saying that a person who claims Faith but doesn't do good deeds is showing that he doesn't actually have Faith.

Dead equals nonexistent faith.

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I agree.

FreeGrace2 said:

No, faith alone without works cannot be demonstrated. See v.18

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Of course it cant be demonstrated. Its dead see v17

Nice discussion guys, does anyone see it a little like the blind leading the blind ?


Matthew 15:14 Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.



Talking about faith is not doing faith, it is doing the opposite, it is confirming that VAIN MAN THINKS DISCUSSING ABOUT FAITH IS NOT VANITY ?


James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?




Now you can ignore this ( it is predictable of vain men anyhow) or pay attention, and I will prove all that is vain, as vanity anyway, that is what the word is for, against vain man.


Then, we are beseeched, to not receive the grace ( the faith of Christ) of God in vain.

Now is the accepted day of salvation, when succoured, ( He succours those tempted) to not give any offence in any thing, that the Holy ministry of Christ be not blamed ( by us) but then ( in faith) approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions ( of Christ) in distresses, in troubles, by pureness, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by sincere love..


Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

2 Corinthians 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.
2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.)
3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed:
4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,
5 In stripes, in imprisonments, in tumults, in labours, in watchings, in fastings;
6 By pureness, by knowledge, by long suffering, by kindness, by the Holy Ghost, by love unfeigned,




Having on he full armour of righteousness, chastened and not killed, as sorrowful, rejoicing only in the Lord, made poor, to make many rich, having nothing to possess all things, now that all is enlarged to you, be also enlarged..



2 Corinthians 6:7 By the word of truth, by the power of God, by the armour of righteousness on the right hand and on the left,
8 By honour and dishonour, by evil report and good report: as deceivers, and yet true;
9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;
10 As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things.
11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.


This is not vain talk, this is our instruction, ( not vain for us as it is our life) to perceive the love of God is to lay our lives down for the brothers, loving your neighbour as yourself, and if compassion is shut up, no love of God dwells in there, ( O vain man) and discussing this, is it love ?


No, you are discussing what is addressed to VAIN MAN.

Then, do not love in your word, or your tongues, but love in deed and in truth, to know you are of the truth and to assure your heart before the Lord...



Deuteronomy 32:47 For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

1 John 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.




If I hear no agreement to this, it is because I may already know, it is because of being vain talkers.



We are not to have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons..

James 2:1 My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.


But to be holy, for the Lord is Holy.

Then call on the Lord, who without respect of persons judges according to every mans work, and then pass your timer here in fear.

You were not redeemed with corruptible things from your VAIN CONVERSATION.

But with the precious blood of Christ, as the Lamb without blemish or spot...



1 Peter 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
17 And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

Doug Brents said:

Dead equals nonexistent faith. No actions equals dead.

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This is an assumption. There are many people in nursing homes who perform no actions, yet they are alive.

A dead faith is a faith that produces no works. There are saved people who perform no works. Just review a few of the Barna surveys on evangelicals. Many act like unbelievers, which is what Paul accused the Corinithan congregation of.

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
So you think James meant that salvation REQUIRES works? Really?

There's more than one way to explain v.26.

Doug Brents said:

No, not “works of the Law” as Paul makes plain through many of his letters, but, yes, it most certainly requires action.

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Are you saying salvation requires action??

Rom 10:10 makes that plain when it clearly says that confession “with the mouth” leads to salvation.

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No, it doesn't say "leads to salvation". That is an opinion. The word "save" is used in the majority of times to refer to deliverance from some danger. Unfortunately, too many people immediately defalut to soul salvation when that is not the usage.

We are saved WHEN we believe in Christ for salvation. Acts 16:31, John 3:15,16, etc.

most certainly action on man’s part is required to receive salvation.

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This is merely a works salvation mentality. Not the Bible.

Freegrace: "This is an assumption. There are many people in nursing homes who perform no actions, yet they are alive.

A dead faith is a faith that produces no works. There are saved people who perform no works. Just review a few of the Barna surveys on evangelicals. Many act like unbelievers, which is what Paul accused the Corinithan congregation of."



Purity is a work, in a pure conscience, so are our words what we are judged by, to be of a pure honest conversation, otherwise we are judged as unfaithful..


Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Freegrace: "No, it doesn't say "leads to salvation". That is an opinion. The word "save" is used in the majority of times to refer to deliverance from some danger. Unfortunately, too many people immediately defalut to soul salvation when that is not the usage."



Confession of the Lord Jesus ( not denial of Him ) is made unto salvation. ( it is a danger to avoid, which is hell/destruction)

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.


To not be ashamed before Him at His coming, and to depart from iniquity after confessing, as the Lord knows those that are His ( for salvation/saved)..

1 John 2:28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

BibleBeliever1611 said:

Having faith without works doesn't mean that the faith is not genuine or that it's not saving faith, it just means what it says: dead. Just believe what the Bible says, don't make up your own interpretations by twisting scripture.

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In verse 14 James specifically said “can that faith save him”?

“What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Dead faith is not a saving faith.

Maria Billingsley said:

It is impossible for a Holy Spirit filled Christian not to have good works. The fruits of the Spirit tells us those good works. In other words, no good works , no Holy Spirit. No Holy Spirit , no Salvation. Blessings.

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In John 15:2 Jesus specifically said that The Father cuts off every branch in Me that beareth not fruit. In Ephesians 4:30 Paul said that even those who are sealed with the Holy Spirit can grieve Him. In 2 Timothy 2:12 Paul also said that if WE deny Him, He will deny US including himself in that statement. If Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them then they were capable of grieving the Holy Spirit to the point of condemnation.

Good, and neither can talk save us too, but deed and truth does do.


The love of the truth saves us, which is to do love, why not try it ?


2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

Albion said:

That doesn't appear to be what James is saying in his Epistle, though. His point is that a dead faith is not faith. He's talking of real people who claim to have faith but show the opposite by the way they live. That's a faith that isn't genuine.

It's a "faith" in name only. That's different from saying that you do indeed have saving faith but it's not good enough or not being put to use.

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I think what James is referring to here is a faith without love since the works he is referring to are works resulting from love.

prophecy_uk said:

Good, and neither can talk save us too, but deed and truth does do.


The love of the truth saves us, which is to do love, why not try it ?


2 Thessalonians 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

1 John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

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Are you replying to me?

Guojing said:

Are you thinking in terms of "vertical vs horizontal justification"?

i.e, James is talking about justification before men while Paul is talking about justification before God?

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Amen, the word justified not only means to be declared righteous but also means to be shown or evinced as righteous. James 2 and Romans 4 are using two different definitions of the word otherwise James and Paul would be directly contradicting each other. James is talking about being shown to be righteous and Paul is talking about being declared as righteous.

BNR32FAN said:

I think what James is referring to here is a faith without love since the works he is referring to are works resulting from love.

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Well, it's acts of charity or mercy that we most often think of when we think of "good works," so that would be right.

BNR: "Paul also said that if WE deny Him, He will deny US including himself in that statement. If Paul and Timothy were capable of denying Christ and Christ is capable of denying them then they were capable of grieving the Holy Spirit to the point of condemnation."


Yes, speaking about denying.

False teachers deny the Lord that bought them.

Many follow the harmful ways, speaking evil of the truth ( the love of the truth) and through covetousness, they invent words to deceive, which is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish...

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 Peter 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.



That is why a reminder goes to the ones who have not denied the name, by keeping the word of the Lord, that the hour of temptation comes on all the world and tries all men, ( now) and to hold fast so no man ( in this temptation) takes your crown ( for life)..



Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.



Holding fast the name of the Lord, to not deny the faith, has a rebuke too, and repentance may be needed if anything false is allowed near you..


Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.
14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.
15 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes, which thing I hate.
16 Repent; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.


If you really wanted to know, you need to pray always to be accounted to escape all these temptations, and to stand before the Son of man..


Luke 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

BN: "Amen, the word justified not only means to be declared righteous but also means to be shown or evinced as righteous. James 2 and Romans 4 are using two different definitions of the word otherwise James and Paul would be directly contradicting each other. James is talking about being shown to be righteous and Paul is talking about being declared as righteous."



They are the same meaning for both, justification is by belief in righteousness, and to have that you need to have a heart that perceives, a soft heart by the Holy Spirit, through hearing the words that are Spirit and life.

BN: "I think what James is referring to here is a faith without love since the works he is referring to are works resulting from love."

Albion: "Well, it's acts of charity or mercy that we most often think of when we think of "good works," so that would be right."


Both of you seem a little confused, charity is not knowledge of discussion, charity is showing the faith through the work and through talk you show what charity..


James 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

1 Corinthians 8:1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.

1 John 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Ezekiel 33:31 And they come unto thee as the people cometh, and they sit before thee as my people, and they hear thy words, but they will not do them: for with their mouth they shew much love, but their heart goeth after their covetousness.

FreeGrace2 said:

This is an assumption. There are many people in nursing homes who perform no actions, yet they are alive.

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Yes, because they still have a heart beat, they breathe, they eat, etc. Just so, their faith continues in trust in God’s promises. And once they are “in Christ”, they are not cast out because they are no longer physically capable of doing “good works”. Just as we are called to physically lay up for ourselves money to support ourselves when we are old, so too we lay up a treasure in Heaven that will “support us” in our old age.