Refusing to be vaccinated against Covid-19 is a ’sin’ & anti-vaxxers must spend their life repenting

Dorothea said:

I'm the opposite. I don't automatically trust our hierarchs (especially some that are speaking very strange things that border on the heretical as of late...at least in my jurisdiction). We are and should question our hierarchs' statements if they go against the Church's teachings. So, as I've said, having seen that quite often in this last year or two (and it isn't just about the virus, but about other canonical issues), I tend to be pretty vigilant on this. After all, some, if not most, of the past heretics were hierarchs, and the laypeople, knowing the faith well, spoke against them.

The importance of what the elders were saying, which are tied to Saints' warnings, were predicted before covid and they'd already reposed before that time, especially the one that died in 2016, which makes his words even more compelling, and quite amazingly accurate.

I trust the hierarchs and all of clergy that follow the elders who are spiritual children of the Saints of our church over our clergy/hierarchs generally speaking.

Anyway, I understand your point of view. Just sharing mine. I've followed this path since I've been a practicing Orthodox (revert - baptized at one years old into the Church but didn't grow up in it and came back to it in my mid-twenties).

Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing.

To clarify my view - we absolutely do need to be vigilant, but I don’t hold the elders to be higher than the hierarchs, and don’t really see a reason to do so (from my POV). They should dovetail each other.

Ultimately it is the universal consensus of the Orthodox Church that matters - with the overall teachings of the saints, the Fathers of the Church, the hierarchs and clergy, and the ongoing teaching of the Holy Spirit through the mind of the Church.

However, I do try to follow my priest’s guidance, who in turn follows the bishop’s guidance, as unto God, even when I have difficulty doing so.

All4Christ said:

Thank you for sharing.

To clarify my view - we absolutely do need to be vigilant, but I don’t hold the elders to be higher than the hierarchs, and don’t really see a reason to do so (from my POV). They should dovetail each other.

Ultimately it is the universal consensus of the Orthodox Church that matters - with the overall teachings of the saints, the Fathers of the Church, the hierarchs and clergy, and the ongoing teaching of the Holy Spirit through the mind of the Church.

However, I do try to follow my priest’s guidance, who in turn follows the bishop’s guidance, as unto God, even when I have difficulty doing so.

Click to expand...

Ah, I see. I go by if there are more than one or two holy elders saying something...more like several, then I pay attention. Kind of like a more consensus than one or two elders saying something. That's what had me take notice. So many coming out on this virus from the beginning, starting with repentance (and has always been a part of it) and then the warnings. Anyway, that's just my own way of discerning, although my priest and my son's priest seem to agree and are on the same page, so in essence, I am listening to my spiritual father.

I just watch and listen and wait. Hoping things won't be too bad. That God has mercy on us all. I confessed to my best friend a couple of hours ago that I've participated in all of this divisiveness and haven't done well in repenting myself. She said we all have. Yes, this is true, and this is why the tide hasn't changed for the better. Praying, as I said, God has mercy on us and lessens what's coming ahead (whatever it is this fall and next year that is supposed to be worse than what's going on right now).

Dorothea said:

Hoping things won't be too bad. That God has mercy on us all. I confessed to my best friend a couple of hours ago that I've participated in all of this divisiveness and haven't done well in repenting myself. She said we all have. Yes, this is true, and this is why the tide hasn't changed for the better. Praying, as I said, God has mercy on us and lessens what's coming ahead (whatever it is this fall and next year that is supposed to be worse than what's going on right now).

Click to expand...

Amen. I’m praying as well.

Dorothea said:

I just watch and listen and wait. Hoping things won't be too bad. That God has mercy on us all. I confessed to my best friend a couple of hours ago that I've participated in all of this divisiveness and haven't done well in repenting myself. She said we all have. Yes, this is true, and this is why the tide hasn't changed for the better. Praying, as I said, God has mercy on us and lessens what's coming ahead (whatever it is this fall and next year that is supposed to be worse than what's going on right now).

Click to expand...

amen!

All4Christ said:

I go with trusting the hierarchs over the elders, since that is what I agreed to do when I was chrismated.

Click to expand...

Given how many heretical hierarchs we have had through the history of the Church?...

prodromos said:

Given how many heretical hierarchs we have had through the history of the Church?...

Click to expand...

Note my next post clarifying it……

All4Christ said:

…To clarify my view - we absolutely do need to be vigilant, but I don’t hold the elders to be higher than the hierarchs, and don’t really see a reason to do so (from my POV). They should dovetail each other.

Ultimately it is the universal consensus of the Orthodox Church that matters - with the overall teachings of the saints, the Fathers of the Church, the hierarchs and clergy, and the ongoing teaching of the Holy Spirit through the mind of the Church.

However, I do try to follow my priest’s guidance, who in turn follows the bishop’s guidance, as unto God, even when I have difficulty doing so.

Click to expand...

prodromos said:

Given how many heretical hierarchs we have had through the history of the Church?...

Click to expand...

Scripture and the saints are very clear about obedience. There always is a qualification though - as unto God. In other words, if it is against God’s teachings, then we don’t follow blindly. If a bishop tells us the spiritual equivalent of “jump off a bridge”, we obviously should not do that.

However, this is why the church is not led by a single patriarch or a single bishop. This also is why the nous of the Church is so important. We are the body of Christ, and we all have the responsibility to be vigilant. We also, however, have clear instructions from both the Bible and saints on how important obedience is - and how to avoid blindly following misleading teachings at the same time. This isn’t an occasional teaching. It is consistent through the entire history and teachings of the Church since it was founded.

Honestly, I don’t understand how this is so controversial. For all who are adult converts, how could you commit to the articles of faith about this if you disagree with the role bishops play in guiding the Church (in addition to the other forms of guidance I listed earlier)?

Believe me - it’d be so much easier to just disregard the need for obedience. There are some things we are dealing with, where we would like to do the opposite of what we were directed to do when talking to our spiritual father. It sometimes stretches us to the brink, and often is not easy.

My own archbishop is supposedly an expert in bioethics, yet he took the vaccine despite all of them being tested on foetal cell lines taken from aborted children. It turns out that since he spends more time in Constantinople than he does in Australia, that it was a requirement of the Turkish government for him to be able to enter Turkey. Both his long absences from his flock and his ready capitulation to Turkish demands despite his 'expertise' in the field of bioethics does not inspire much confidence in our hierarch.

prodromos said:

My own archbishop is supposedly an expert in bioethics, yet he took the vaccine despite all of them being tested on foetal cell lines taken from aborted children. It turns out that since he spends more time in Constantinople than he does in Australia, that it was a requirement of the Turkish government for him to be able to enter Turkey. Both his long absences from his flock and his ready capitulation to Turkish demands despite his 'expertise' in the field of bioethics does not inspire much confidence in our hierarch.

Click to expand...

I understand your POV based on this information.

That said….

I maintain my POV regarding obedience though, as it is clear that the saints and Bible direct us to do that, with the caveats I mentioned earlier. St. Paisios has a good description of obedience to clergy and bishops - including the vigilance required by all Orthodox Christians. I need to find it…most of my writings from him are paperback…

Question: I don’t think any hierarch (with the exception of the one referenced by the OP) has mandated it. Has yours mandated everyone take the vaccine? I’m asking in relation to obedience.

All4Christ said:

Question: I don’t think any hierarch (with the exception of the one referenced by the OP) has mandated it. Has yours mandated everyone take the vaccine? I’m asking in relation to obedience.

Click to expand...

He hasn't been around to say anything since he is presently in Greece, but we are particularly interested to hear what he has to say now that our state government has announced that only the vaccinated will be able to attend church services when they start to lift restrictions here. As our spiritual father has said, "any church that denies entry to the unvaccinated is not the Church of Christ." Our Prime Minister is Catholic and our State Premier is Armenian Orthodox, unfortunately in name only, but then I guess you are well aquainted with the hypocrasy of your current House Speaker and President.

On a lighter note, my wife and I just went for a lovely evening walk, and were pleasantly surprised that we didn't come across anybody else for the entire time we were out, which meant that we didn't have to go through the pretense of putting our masks on (present restrictions here require masks at all times outdoors). It wasn't until we were nearing the end of our walk that I remembered that our state government has also imposed a curfew after 9pm. Just another of their stupid, arbitrary restrictions that serve no purpose.

I can tell you a couple of hierarchs have been quite harsh and, to be frank, mean, toward those Orthodox laypeople (and in some instances, priests -- threatening to remove the priests from his metropolis) who chose not to take the vaccine. Both not showing the spirit of God in their words and tone.

prodromos said:

He hasn't been around to say anything since he is presently in Greece, but we are particularly interested to hear what he has to say now that our state government has announced that only the vaccinated will be able to attend church services when they start to lift restrictions here. As our spiritual father has said, "any church that denies entry to the unvaccinated is not the Church of Christ." Our Prime Minister is Catholic and our State Premier is Armenian Orthodox, unfortunately in name only, but then I guess you are well aquainted with the hypocrasy of your current House Speaker and President.

On a lighter note, my wife and I just went for a lovely evening walk, and were pleasantly surprised that we didn't come across anybody else for the entire time we were out, which meant that we didn't have to go through the pretense of putting our masks on (present restrictions here require masks at all times outdoors). It wasn't until we were nearing the end of our walk that I remembered that our state government has also imposed a curfew after 9pm. Just another of their stupid, arbitrary restrictions that serve no purpose.

Click to expand...

I certainly hope that neither the federal or state governments enact that here. It shouldn’t be allowed constitutionally either (mandates like by the government for religious institutions).

So sorry to hear Australia is mandating that.

[Yes, I am very aware of the current state here as well….Lord have mercy on us all.]

prodromos said:

He hasn't been around to say anything since he is presently in Greece, but we are particularly interested to hear what he has to say now that our state government has announced that only the vaccinated will be able to attend church services when they start to lift restrictions here. As our spiritual father has said, "any church that denies entry to the unvaccinated is not the Church of Christ." Our Prime Minister is Catholic and our State Premier is Armenian Orthodox, unfortunately in name only, but then I guess you are well aquainted with the hypocrasy of your current House Speaker and President.

On a lighter note, my wife and I just went for a lovely evening walk, and were pleasantly surprised that we didn't come across anybody else for the entire time we were out, which meant that we didn't have to go through the pretense of putting our masks on (present restrictions here require masks at all times outdoors). It wasn't until we were nearing the end of our walk that I remembered that our state government has also imposed a curfew after 9pm. Just another of their stupid, arbitrary restrictions that serve no purpose.

Click to expand...

I’m glad we don’t need to have masks on all day outdoors….It feels like things are mostly back to normal in our area, except for my work being fully remote. (Technically, non-vaccinated are supposed to wear masks when in indoor public settings…but it is on the honor system).

Besides work, the big impact is lack of workers….most restaurants, for example, are severely crippled by the lower number of employees. Some even shut down due to not having chefs!

We do wear masks if I’m with my grandma at the nursing home face to face (even outside), but I consider that to be an acceptable exception.

The whole issue of hierarchs “vs” elders seems easy to me - the issue of whether their words and actions uphold the consensus of the fathers in Holy Tradition or not. If they do, then they will necessarily dovetail. If they don’t, if they contradict each other, then somebody is off those rails.

I do understand Podromos’s point about modern hierarchs on occasion being unreliable and more prone to be off the rails, and if they truly are and we are certain of that, then obedience is not necessarily a virtue. But it does require a strong basis in Tradition for certainty. I’d say there is one for certainty that it is wrong to deny people worship and communion out of fear of anything at all.

rusmeister said:

The whole issue of hierarchs “vs” elders seems easy to me - the issue of whether their words and actions uphold the consensus of the fathers in Holy Tradition or not. If they do, then they will necessarily dovetail. If they don’t, if they contradict each other, then somebody is off those rails.

I do understand Podromos’s point about modern hierarchs on occasion being unreliable and more prone to be off the rails, and if they truly are and we are certain of that, then obedience is not necessarily a virtue. But it does require a strong basis in Tradition for certainty. I’d say there is one for certainty that it is wrong to deny people worship and communion out of fear of anything at all.

Click to expand...

I agree - a strong basis in Tradition is critical. Denying people worship and communion out of fear of anything fits into the category for me as well.

My priest said once, while we were required to only have a skeleton crew, that he cannot refuse entrance to the liturgy, per instruction of the Church (I thought he mentioned a canon, but I can’t find it.) Of course, there are legitimate reasons for barring people from the Eucharist, but it cannot be out of fear.

All4Christ said:

My priest said once, while we were required to only have a skeleton crew, that he cannot refuse entrance to the liturgy, per instruction of the Church (I thought he mentioned a canon, but I can’t find it.) Of course, there are legitimate reasons for barring people from the Eucharist, but it cannot be out of fear.

Click to expand...

I think this is why, in our "jurisdiction" or however you call these territorially overlapping bishoprics in the US, the priests were banned from entering the church during that first lockdown. They could not serve the Divine Liturgy with the Reader only. They could not stream prayers from in front of the iconostasis. They were allowed to stream prayers from their own homes.

I'm not even commenting, just pointing it out.

Andrei D said:

I think this is why, in our "jurisdiction" or however you call these territorially overlapping bishoprics in the US, the priests were banned from entering the church during that first lockdown. They could not serve the Divine Liturgy with the Reader only. They could not stream prayers from in front of the iconostasis. They were allowed to stream prayers from their own homes.

I'm not even commenting, just pointing it out.

Click to expand...

Interesting to hear that experience. I didn’t realize that there were some that couldn’t even enter the parish. I guess it is one way to take care of that dilemma though.

I was blessed to be able to be part of the skeleton crew - 4 choir members, 2 subdeacons and Father. We had to be under 10, so we had a few less than the max with our skeleton crew (which somewhat alleviated the aforementioned dilemma).

It was very strange though to sing with an empty congregation. For Pascha, Father put icons of saints on all the chairs. It was a surreal experience.

When I first heard the congregation come and sing The Angel Cried…..that brought tears to my eyes.

When we had the lockdowns here in the Springs (Colorado), only the priest, altar man (the kids weren't there), and chanter were there at the church for the liturgy and other services. It sucked, to be totally honest. As I've said before, it angered me what the state did to my church and other churches at that time. The Church IS ESSENTIAL and one of the most essential places on the planet, especially during crises and horrible events.

All4Christ said:

Interesting to hear that experience. I didn’t realize that there were some that couldn’t even enter the parish.

I was blessed to be able to be part of the skeleton crew - 4 choir members, 2 subdeacons and Father. We had to be under 10.

Click to expand...

Great blessing. And for those at home, having their parish still offer the Liturgy was still a great blessing.

Also, understand, no one asked them to do this. It was their initiative. In fact, Lord forgive us, we went to our county Sheriff and they explained we could have up to I think 10 people in the church. But we again got no from our own. We asked the secular power again for Pascha and specifically we were allowed by the county to do an outdoor service if we could ensure the "social" distancing (eerily unusual misnomer for physical distancing). We even imagined a Light / blessed bread drive-through of sorts for anyone who'd be too fearful to step into the church yard. That was a no go from our authority as well. It's hard to struggle with such things but I think we came through in the end.

I recall that my friends in Romania, at least, had the assurance of being remembered at the Holy Proskomidia every time. Not here. Also, in Romania, I think they had the... police deliver Light and Paschal blessed bread to people in their homes.

And even there, people were realizing that through the Turks, the Tatars, innumerable and far more gruesome plagues, famine, drought, 2 world wars, the communists - the Church was never closed, Pascha was never "restructured". On the contrary, the Church was the place of refuge and the place of strength, through century after century. Often, the ONLY such place.

I don't want that history to be forgotten and I don't want this more recent history to be forgotten either.