The Danger of Creationism

pitabread said:

The video specifically shows examples of professional creationists and creationist organizations promoting vaccines, and then proceeding to get into arguments with anti-vax contingents of their own followers.

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So what? There's people concerned about vaccines that aren't Christians too who don't believe in Creationism. So you're saying there's a contingent among their group which don't have comfort about the vaccines. There's a contingent in all other groups as well.

So your OP really is just a hit piece opposing certain type of Christians. Not fair.

pitabread said:

And that by not doing so, scientists are allowing general mistrust of science and science professionals to foster. Which in the context of anti-vax movements has deadly consequences.

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I would agree...but.. I also am not a fan of the idea that just because we have the ability to create a vaccine, and print up money to pay for it, that it is the right of every person in the world to receive it, and the obligation of providers to administer it universally.

Some current medications can be tens, of thousands per month, and with DNA research it may be possible to spend 100's of thousands for medication for one person. Are there any lines to draw on how much we will spend on healthcare and will we make it universal for every person in the world to spend all the resources we have on everyone?

SkyWriting said:

I would agree...but.. I also am not a fan of the idea that just because we have the ability to create a vaccine, and print up money to pay for it, that it is the right of every person in the world to receive it, and the obligation of providers to administer it universally.

Some current medications can be tens, of thousands per month, and with DNA research it may be possible to spend 100's of thousands for medication for one person. Are there any lines to draw on how much we will spend on healthcare and will we make it universal for every person in the world to spend all the resources we have on everyone?

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Or just go with the medications that the science shows are effective and have been shown to be safe for years, now, that because the AMA and FDA and WHO knows whay and the powers that bay haven't put their stamp of approval on them, they are no longer safe, no longer reliable, and "the science doesn't show they are effective."

I'm tired of talking points and morning shows ruling the day. Why does the media have to tell us what to believe?

pitabread said:

The thesis of the stream is the idea that creationist organizations (e.g. professional creationists) have spent decades training their followers to distrust science and science professionals. In the context of evolution-denial, it's theoretically not a big deal. In the context of the current pandemic and vaccines, however, science distrust is causing real harm.

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Comparing believers of Young Earth Creationism and anti-vaxxers is a false equivalence.

Creation Ministries, especially, has always been careful to distinguish operational science and historical science. The study of immunology fall under the latter; the experiments involved in that field are repeatable and reproducible, and therefore the reports on the efficacy of a newly-developed vaccine is easily falsifiable by a different laboratory/research team testing the sample of the vaccine on a sample of the virus strain and see whether or not the product works as advertised (although, of course, in vitro and in vivo experiments may produce different results due to the variety of the human body response in different individuals -- which are in turn affected by a myriad of other factors from genetics to pre-existing health conditions -- and this adds the complexity of verifying any scientific claims, especially when it involves health & wellness).

The evolution vs. creation debate, meanwhile, is a historical science. It is neither repeatable, reproducible nor falsifiable, as we cannot re-create the Big Bang or whatever origin story one believes in, and as a result the proponents of any such theory would rely more assumptions and presuppositions (i.e. faith) in order to reach a conclusion on the narrative. History, after all, are based more on eyewitness accounts, testimonies, written records such as letters and memoirs, rather than actual empirical evidence. And while the origin narrative a person holds can have philosophical implications that might influence the rest of their worldview, it doesn't determine the authenticity of their scientific authority -- just as a programmer doesn't need to know how their computer and the history behind its invention, to be able to create a functioning software.

As for the issue of fostering science distrust, I think it has more to do with the people's general wariness against government bodies, large institutions and media outlets who tend to have something to gain by promoting their version of truth claim (whether or not it actually true) and have the power to get away with the consequences if they are disproven. What they believe about the origins of the universe seems hardly a factor in these issues.

pitabread said:

But also laments that a lot of the folks posting vaccine conspiracies and other nonsense are basically just "gone" at this point.

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When dealing with the motives of men, the most pessimistic and doubting in the room are the ones closest to the truth. Those trusting in the "inherent goodness of man" are naïf persons ripe for the taking.

Vaccine hesitancy is a wise response to shady, money grubbing power brokers manipulating "science" for themselves. All roads lead back to their coffers and control. No evil motives there, no, none at all.

GOD Shines Forth! said:

Vaccine hesitancy is a wise response to shady, money grubbing power brokers manipulating "science" for themselves.

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I think that degree of cynicism and pessimism is unwarranted in the face of a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands.

pitabread said:

That's a bogus distinction though. This just reinforces the notion that creationist organizations are peddling misinformation about science.

This is misinformation.

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How is it bogus or misinfo? Can the things be distinguished or not? Is it possible to categorize various ideas in that way? If it is then the distinction is legitimate, if it isn't then it either needs to be refined or thrown out. Just because it supports their point doesn't make it bogus or misinfo.

Mark Quayle said:

Or just go with the medications that the science shows are effective and have been shown to be safe for years,

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For treating viral infections?
Why not take measures to PREVENT the infection in the first place?

now, that because the AMA and FDA and WHO knows whay and the powers that bay haven't put their stamp of approval on them, they are no longer safe, no longer reliable, and "the science doesn't show they are effective."

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I know you have admitted to not being a scientist - are you now a medical expert?
Do you understand the difference between in vitro and in vivo? That dosages for treating a parasitic illness are not the same for others?

I'm tired of talking points and morning shows ruling the day. Why does the media have to tell us what to believe?

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I'm tired of a pudgy right-wing trust-funder who has never truly worked a day in his life and has no scientific background telling his gullible audience that masks don't work and the vaccines don't work for purely political reasons.

pitabread said:

While true, this doesn't absolve creationist organizations from being part of the broader movement fostering mistrust of science and contributing to science denialism.

That's really the point of the video. It's about holding creationist organizations to account for their role in this and being part of the problem.

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Creationists have NO ROLE at all in having to give account for NOT ALWAYS accepting what the standard line of science or falsely so called science says! There's some times science can be right about other subjects....and sometimes they're wrong. Seems like you'd delight in seeing censorship of anyone saying anything different about anything or the standard thinking of the day.

You need to remember that Einstein's work released in 1905 was NOT well received for it contradicted what was thought about ether space.

In the U.S. few understood special relativity and it was generally ridiculed as totally impractical and absurd. Check out the link below,

Why No One Believed Einstein | JSTOR Daily

pitabread said:

Livestream from yesterday from Creation Myths (creationism debunking channel run by evolutionary biologist Dan Cardinale).

The thesis of the stream is the idea that creationist organizations (e.g. professional creationists) have spent decades training their followers to distrust science and science professionals. In the context of evolution-denial, it's theoretically not a big deal. In the context of the current pandemic and vaccines, however, science distrust is causing real harm.

The video specifically shows examples of professional creationists and creationist organizations promoting vaccines, and then proceeding to get into arguments with anti-vax contingents of their own followers.

There is a palpable irony in seeing creationists arguing in favor of science against other creationists arguing against it. At one point, a quote from Dr. Jonathan Sarfati, whereby Sarfati states that anyone thinking that the vaccine is worse than COVID-19 is living in a "magical world". Meanwhile, I'm thinking, "you mean like people who believe the world is only 6000 years old? Those people?"

Dr. Dan does credit these creationists and orgs that at least they are being responsible in promoting the vaccines and trying to save lives. But also laments that a lot of the folks posting vaccine conspiracies and other nonsense are basically just "gone" at this point. Words on the internet are not likely to convince them, even from people they otherwise had trusted.

He ends the video by calling on professional scientists to take more responsibility in debunking anti-science and pseudoscientific views no matter what they are. And that by not doing so, scientists are allowing general mistrust of science and science professionals to foster. Which in the context of anti-vax movements has deadly consequences.

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I’m doing my bit: I’m teaching six year old about evidence and hypothesis testing.

I read an interesting book recently that I think has a lot of truth to it.

A Lot of People Are Saying: The New Conspiracism and the Assault on Democracy

Classic conspiracy theory insists that things are not what they seem and gathers evidence—especially facts ominously withheld by official sources—to tease out secret machinations. The new conspiracism is different. There is no demand for evidence, no dots revealed to form a pattern, no close examination of shadowy plotters. Dispensing with the burden of explanation, the new conspiracism imposes its own reality through repetition (exemplified by the Trump catchphrase “a lot of people are saying”) and bare assertion (“rigged!”).

The new conspiracism targets democratic foundations—political parties and knowledge-producing institutions. It makes it more difficult to argue, persuade, negotiate, compromise, and even to disagree. Ultimately, it delegitimates democracy.

I think classic creationism is more like a classic conspiracy theory. It's wrong, but at least they attempt to look at things like bombardier beetles and the Grand Canyon and come up with 'theories'. I agree it's corrosive to trust in science, and is definitely part of the problem.

But what we're seeing now is a much broader dismissal of experts of all kinds. Public health authorities, climate scientists, our own intelligence agencies, our own election officials. And not much interest in evidence. Asked for evidence of fraudulent ballots, you'll be shown affidavits of people saying there are fraudulent ballots. The claim itself is all the evidence they need.

Anyway, sorry for the book report, but I think standard creationists are at least playing the game of evidence and (conspiracy) theories. And so I'm not surprised they're flummoxed by people who have abandoned the game entirely.

pitabread said:

Dan shows numerous quotes in that video showing exactly the above; the anti-science conspiracy-theory mongering that leads people to not vaccinate and increases suffering and death in the broader population. And why things like mandatory vaccinations are ultimately necessary, because otherwise folks like yourself continue to jeopardize public safety and health of others.

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Baloney. I’m Covid-recovered, so I’ve looked at life from both sides now.

Akita Suggagaki said:

I think that degree of cynicism and pessimism is unwarranted in the face of a pandemic that has killed hundreds of thousands.

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That’s your filter, filtering. It has nothing to do with my post, or the truth of it.