Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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robycop3

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There is NO "rapture" text that promises this so-called translation of the still-living saints. This is a fabrication that has unfortunately prevailed in modern-day thinking. It runs totally counter to the Hebrew 9:27 rule that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment".
"We shall not all sleep" is plain as day!!!!!!!!!!!

You are mistaken that this Hebrews 9:27 rule was set aside for the Beast and the False Prophet thrown ALIVE into Hell. That's NOT what Revelation 19:20 says. It says that both of them were "thrown alive into A LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone". The "Lake of Fire" is NOT Hell, because scripture tells us that both Hell and Death themselves were thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Hell cannot be thrown into itself. These are two different things.
"Hell" being thrown into the LOF is a mistranslation of 'hades' in the KJV & a few other versions. And in most translations, when Jesus said "gehenna', it's translated as "hell".

People's concept of what the "Lake of Fire" actually is needs considerable revision. God tells us WHERE the "Lake of Fire" or the "Furnace of fire" was to be located. It was IN THE CITY OF JERUSALEM, according to Isaiah 31:9. In that verse, the Lord said that His "FIRE IS IN ZION, AND HIS FURNACE IN JERUSALEM."


How goofy ! !
The LOF was prepared for the devil & his angels long ago, and God has chosen to cast wicked men into it as well.


As you remember, the "Furnace of fire" was where there was going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth in Matthew 13:42. This is the same thing as the Lake of Fire in Revelation 19:20. And it was to be in the city of Jerusalem itself. The Lake of Fire was NOT intended to portray a realm of eternal torment in the afterlife. It was a LOCAL site of judgment, functioning within a finite period that ended, since the city of Jerusalem today is not still flaming with brimstone.
Pure and incorrect conjecture. There certainly be wailing & gnashing of teeth in hell, the LOF.

Your deductions about the presumed translation of still-living people need correction in order to align with scripture.

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

Again, "we shall not all sleep" is plain as it can get ! ! !
 
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robycop3

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I have shown you before a generous sampling of historical records on the other GCF website, and you have simply brushed them aside as not being included in your encyclopedia's content (which are a type of condensed "cliff's notes" versions of history, and are not exhaustive in content).

Off the top of my head, I remember using Tacitus, Seneca, Quadratus, Eusebius, Ussher, ancient seismic records for Israel and the Mediterranean, the Syriac Peshitta, current archaeological evidences, etc., as well as Josephus for providing proof of Revelation's prophetic material having been fulfilled. It is really strange that you reject Josephus's eye-witness accounts of that era. He was the high priest Matthias's son, you know, with a thorough education of his people's history, and a front-row seat to the first-century AD 70 era events described in Revelation. In any court case, this eye-witness testimony would be given serious consideration, regardless of Titus becoming his patron.
Josephus was a REBEL LEADER, captured by Vespasian, who was ready to decapitate him until he offered to dictate & write a history of the Jews, which V wanted to know, in order to better deal with them & understand the cause of their rebellion. He so impressed V that he made J a member of the Flavius family, forgetting his rebel activity. But J never forgot he was still on precarious ground & was very careful to not say or write anything that would displease V, and later, Titus. While much of his history is true, he added a few things, altered some stories, & left a few things out to avoid upsetting his patrons.

Funny that only J "recalled" seeing chariots in the sky, etc. above Jerusalem, while over 100,000 other people missed it! tacitus likely heard stuff from those who'd read Josephus' stuff, (Maybe he himself had read it.) while Seneca died 65 AD, before the siege of J, & so couldn't've seen it.

And Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's Encyclopedia, & World Book are hardly "Cliff's Notes"!

You prets are at a loss to tell us who the "beast/antichrist" was, who the false prophet was, or describe the mark of the beast, or many other prophesied events, because they simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED!
 
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robycop3

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The reason they added the 7 church ages to the Bible, is the exact same reason you added "Jesus will enable those who pierced Him to see His return". Both are added to scripture for the same reason--the assumption that futurism is true. The church at Philadelphia was told "10Because you have kept My word of perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of the testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming quickly; hold firmly to what you have, so that no one will take your crown."
The church at Philadelphia no longer exists. Only Smyrna has a church now.
As the book of Hebrews says:
37FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE,

HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
...Except you have a MAJOR prob-HE HASN'T YET RETURNED ! !
 
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Josephus was a REBEL LEADER...

You prets are at a loss to tell us who the "beast/antichrist" was, who the false prophet was, or describe the mark of the beast, or many other prophesied events, because they simply HAVE NOT YET OCCURRED!

I agree that Josephus became one of the rebel leaders. Josephus was one of the 10 "horns" on the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17:12. These 10 "horns" were the 10 generals chosen in AD 66 to prepare for the war with the Romans. Josephus lists all of these 10 "horns", including himself, in Wars 2.20.4.

As for being "at a loss to tell us who the 'beast/antichrist' was" (which were really not the same thing), "who the false prophet was, or describe the mark of the beast, or many other prophesied events...", I have already done so many times over on the GCF website, and am continuing to do the same here on christianforums as well. Your acceptance of this material or your rejection of it represents only one viewpoint among the many thousands who read this forum. No more, and no less. You and I are both "playing to the gallery", so to speak, and I don't really expect to change you from your already-settled position. However, for those who are still analyzing and weighing these things in their minds, I'm continuing to offer evidence of an alternate position for them to consider besides your own.
 
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3 Resurrections

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The LOF was prepared for the devil & his angels long ago, and God has chosen to cast wicked men into it as well.

Yes indeed, God certainly did that very thing back in the AD 70 era. Why do you think John in Revelation 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 both prophesied of "every unclean spirit" and the "host of the high ones" being punished by their imprisonment in the city of Jerusalem? God gathered them all together into that city, and the devils and unclean spirits and Satan plagued the citizens with their seven-fold wickedness tormenting the people of that city in its "last state". Truly a type of "Great Tribulation" that will never again be repeated in times after AD 70.

When "Death and Hell (Hades - the grave)" were cast into the Lake of Fire in Jerusalem in AD 70, God got rid of the wicked in that local site of judgment, as well as the entire demonic realm which was reduced to ashes, as prophesied in Malachi 4:3 and Ezekiel 28:18.

You continue to call "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" the same thing, and they are NOT. Hell (Hades - the grave) was thrown INTO the Lake of Fire, picturing the destruction of the wicked dead, so Hell and the LOF have to be two separate things.
 
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Again, "we shall not all sleep" is plain as it can get ! ! !

If your chosen interpretation of "We shall not all sleep" in 1 Cor. 15:51 is presuming that some will not die, then you are flatly contradicting Hebrews 9:27 which says that all are APPOINTED "ONCE TO DIE". You have NOT reconciled these two texts with your assumption that the living are somehow "translated" without dying. Your interpretation requiring a supposed "translation" change of the living at the rapture creates a man-made contradiction between scriptures.
 
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while Seneca died 65 AD, before the siege of J,

Seneca wrote evidence of some of the "beginning of sorrows", namely the surge of seismic activity in those years just prior to the "Great Tribulation" breaking out in AD 66. Seneca wrote a volume called "Concerning Earthquakes", following the AD 63 Vesuvius earthquake - a precursor to its later cataclysmic eruption in AD 73. Christ had already told the disciples that an increased surge in seismic activity, (among other natural disasters and wars among nations), would occur just prior to those years of Great Tribulation (the "Days of vengeance"), which started when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in AD 66, and lasted until AD 70, which period of tribulation would be unlike any before or after that time in history to come.
 
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Ed Parenteau

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...Except you have a MAJOR prob-HE HASN'T YET RETURNED ! !
Maybe it's your understanding of His Coming that is wrong
because you obviously don't believe the verses I gave you, so you probably don't believe the following clearly stated verses either:
James 5:8 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.
1 Peter 4: The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.
Romans 13:11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12The night is far gone; the day is at hand.
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 4:6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Is this your expectation of the coming of the Lord?
20Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said,
“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
 
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robycop3

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I agree that Josephus became one of the rebel leaders. Josephus was one of the 10 "horns" on the Scarlet Beast of Revelation 17:12. These 10 "horns" were the 10 generals chosen in AD 66 to prepare for the war with the Romans. Josephus lists all of these 10 "horns", including himself, in Wars 2.20.4.
No, the 10 horns will be 10 kings or rulers of nations or peoples, 7 of which will willingly become vassals of the one who arises among them. Josephus wrote that because it was general knowledge among the Romans he'd been a rebel leader, & he wanted to give them a "rational" explanation that powers beyond his control had caused him to become a rebel.


As for being "at a loss to tell us who the 'beast/antichrist' was" (which were really not the same thing), "who the false prophet was, or describe the mark of the beast, or many other prophesied events...", I have already done so many times over on the GCF website, and am continuing to do the same here on christianforums as well. Your acceptance of this material or your rejection of it represents only one viewpoint among the many thousands who read this forum. No more, and no less. You and I are both "playing to the gallery", so to speak, and I don't really expect to change you from your already-settled position. However, for those who are still analyzing and weighing these things in their minds, I'm continuing to offer evidence of an alternate position for them to consider besides your own.
Your "alternate position" is simply wrong. Paul refers to "the MAN of sin", not men. The angel narrator of Rev says "the beast', not "beasts", and "he", not "they". And there's not yet been any beast/antichrist nor miracle-working false prophet, no worldwide great trib, no marka the beast, & certainly, no physical, visible return of Jesus. You prets simply cannot avoid those FACTS.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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There have been m,any outlines of the various "church ages" made, but none are correct. Types of all 7 of those churches have existed since those churches did, and exist today. You need another doctrine to support, as "7 church ages" is false.

The greatest evidence supports the seven churches as seven epochs between the antitypical spring and autumnal festivals.
 
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robycop3

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Yes indeed, God certainly did that very thing back in the AD 70 era. Why do you think John in Revelation 18:2 and Isaiah 24:21-23 both prophesied of "every unclean spirit" and the "host of the high ones" being punished by their imprisonment in the city of Jerusalem? God gathered them all together into that city, and the devils and unclean spirits and Satan plagued the citizens with their seven-fold wickedness tormenting the people of that city in its "last state". Truly a type of "Great Tribulation" that will never again be repeated in times after AD 70.
HORSE FEATHERS! Jerusalem is NOT the 2nd Babylon. The first Babylon still existed in 70 AD; while not an important place any more, it was still there. The events of 66-70 AD were the "days of vengeance" prophesied by Jesus to come upon that generation of Jews.

When "Death and Hell (Hades - the grave)" were cast into the Lake of Fire in Jerusalem in AD 70, God got rid of the wicked in that local site of judgment, as well as the entire demonic realm which was reduced to ashes, as prophesied in Malachi 4:3 and Ezekiel 28:18.
More horse feathers. There was no lake of fire in Jerusalem. While there were some fires, most of it was non-combustible, & was destroyed same as the temple was, by being pulled down. That's been confirmed by archaeology.

You continue to call "Hell" and the "Lake of Fire" the same thing, and they are NOT. Hell (Hades - the grave) was thrown INTO the Lake of Fire, picturing the destruction of the wicked dead, so Hell and the LOF have to be two separate things.
That's because hell & the LOF ARE the same thing. The "hades=hell thingie" is a KJV mistranslation, one of the reasons I don't use it. JESUS was NOT in hell 3 days & nights as the KJV says!

"...and the smoke of their torment ascends forever."
 
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robycop3

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Seneca wrote evidence of some of the "beginning of sorrows", namely the surge of seismic activity in those years just prior to the "Great Tribulation" breaking out in AD 66. Seneca wrote a volume called "Concerning Earthquakes", following the AD 63 Vesuvius earthquake - a precursor to its later cataclysmic eruption in AD 73. Christ had already told the disciples that an increased surge in seismic activity, (among other natural disasters and wars among nations), would occur just prior to those years of Great Tribulation (the "Days of vengeance"), which started when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies in AD 66, and lasted until AD 70, which period of tribulation would be unlike any before or after that time in history to come.
The great trib will be WORLDWIDE. And its main events are written in Rev. 16.
There have been many disasters moch-worse than the siege of Jerusalem. The "black death" plague pandemic in Europe, the Yangtze River floods, the 2 World Wars & the events within them, the 1918 flu pandemic, all killed many more people than died in Jerusalem. remember, Jesus said that if the trib wasn't to be cut short, that NO FLESH (man or animal) would survive.
And He also said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the trib, so if it was in 70 AD, He's long-overdue!

Simple, obvious TRUTH-THE GREAT TRIB HASN'T YET OCCURRED!
 
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robycop3

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Maybe it's your understanding of His Coming that is wrong
because you obviously don't believe the verses I gave you, so you probably don't believe the following clearly stated verses either:
James 5:8 You, too, be patient and strengthen your hearts, because the Lord’s coming is near.
1 Peter 4: The end of all things is at hand; therefore be self-controlled and sober-minded for the sake of your prayers.
Romans 13:11Besides this you know the time, that the hour has come for you to wake from sleep. For salvation is nearer to us now than when we first believed. 12The night is far gone; the day is at hand.
1 John 2:18 Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour.
1 John 4:6We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Is this your expectation of the coming of the Lord?
20Now He was questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, and He answered them and said,
“The kingdom of God is not coming with signs that can be observed; 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”
Jesus plainly said, in Matt. 24, that He'd return IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, & in rev. 1:7 that EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIMwhen He returns. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.
Now, Jesus is SPIRITUALLY among any gathering of 2 or more people in His name, as He said. But that's different from His physical, visible return, which will be the greatest, most-glorious event ever, since the world was made.
 
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DavidPT

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Jesus plainly said, in Matt. 24, that He'd return IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, & in rev. 1:7 that EVERY EYE SHALL SEE HIMwhen He returns. Obviously, that hasn't happened yet.
Now, Jesus is SPIRITUALLY among any gathering of 2 or more people in His name, as He said. But that's different from His physical, visible return, which will be the greatest, most-glorious event ever, since the world was made.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you about anything here, at least not yet anyway, what do you take every eye to mean? Everyone that is alive at the time? Or everyone that is alive at the time and everyone that is dead at the time?
 
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Timtofly

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That body which has once housed the Holy Spirit which gave its spirit eternal life is forever considered a purchased possession belonging to Christ. Not one hair of the heads of the saints will perish, Christ promised the disciples, even though they might be martyred. We are given that Holy Spirit while still living as an "earnest", a "pledge" as a down payment guaranteeing our body's resurrection after death. That "earnest" will be fully paid at the redemption of the whole "purchased possession" - body, soul, and spirit together.

"Whether we live, therefore, or die, we are the Lord's", Paul said.

Joseph was commended for his faith in giving commandment concerning his bones. If those bones were only to be "disposed of" later on, why the commendation for Joseph giving that command?

Jesus also said, "let the dead bury the dead". This flesh of Adam cannot enter Paradise. It is dead. Even those in the OT could not enter Paradise until the Cross. Although there were a few exceptions. God could have given all the OT believers new bodies and let them into Paradise, yet it seems they had to wait for the physical appearance of God Himself on earth.

If it truly is an "obsession" to speak of the resurrection of the dead, then count me in along with Paul, who was determined to know nothing among the Corinthians except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. Christ's bodily resurrection as a pattern for our own bodily resurrection was a basic ground-level belief for Paul. Hebrews 6:1-2 lists the resurrection of the dead as one of those basic foundations of the doctrine of Christ. I'm sorry you have a problem with it.
I do not have a problem with a bodily resurrection. Paul clearly taught two different types of bodies. 2 Corinthians 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

This body is corruption. The eternal body is incorruption.

I never even mentioned the "Second Death" above in my comment about the "remnant of the dead" coming to life again as being the "First Resurrection". The "Second Death" was Jerusalem's Lake of Fire phenomenon during the AD 70 era when the city of Jerusalem and the nation was dying again; the second time that had happened since Jerusalem's first death under the Babylonian invasion back in 586 BC.
The second death is that of the spirit. It is complete separation from God.
 
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Timtofly

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It is if there's no relationship to anything written in scripture. The dead watching us is not taught in scripture. As the scripture does say, the "dead know not anything".
The dead are in sheol. The living are in Paradise. Which were you referring to?
 
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DavidPT

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Even those in the OT could not enter Paradise until the Cross. Although there were a few exceptions.


What few exceptions were those, in light of what Jesus said per the following?

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
 
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Timtofly

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There is NO "rapture" text that promises this so-called translation of the still-living saints. This is a fabrication that has unfortunately prevailed in modern-day thinking. It runs totally counter to the Hebrew 9:27 rule that "it is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after this the judgment".

You are mistaken that this Hebrews 9:27 rule was set aside for the Beast and the False Prophet thrown ALIVE into Hell. That's NOT what Revelation 19:20 says. It says that both of them were "thrown alive into A LAKE OF FIRE burning with brimstone". The "Lake of Fire" is NOT Hell, because scripture tells us that both Hell and Death themselves were thrown into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 20:14). Hell cannot be thrown into itself. These are two different things.

People's concept of what the "Lake of Fire" actually is needs considerable revision. God tells us WHERE the "Lake of Fire" or the "Furnace of fire" was to be located. It was IN THE CITY OF JERUSALEM, according to Isaiah 31:9. In that verse, the Lord said that His "FIRE IS IN ZION, AND HIS FURNACE IN JERUSALEM."

As you remember, the "Furnace of fire" was where there was going to be wailing and gnashing of teeth in Matthew 13:42. This is the same thing as the Lake of Fire in Revelation 19:20. And it was to be in the city of Jerusalem itself. The Lake of Fire was NOT intended to portray a realm of eternal torment in the afterlife. It was a LOCAL site of judgment, functioning within a finite period that ended, since the city of Jerusalem today is not still flaming with brimstone.

Your deductions about the presumed translation of still-living people need correction in order to align with scripture.
There is no rule that all have to die once. All are already dead. In Adam all are born dead.

It is an appointment, that all dead will face the judgment. No human will physically die twice. Why is that part of the appointment not emphasized? If it is a rule that all must die once, then no one can die twice. Many make exceptions to their own rule, that Lazarus had to die twice. No consistency, just a point to argue over.

That "once to die" part is the legacy of Adam. It is not about the soul leaving the body. The judgment does take place after the soul leaves the body. That judgment for most is the GWT.
 
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Timtofly

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current archaeological evidences, etc., as well as Josephus for providing proof of Revelation's prophetic material having been fulfilled. It is really strange that you reject Josephus's eye-witness accounts of that era. He was the high priest Matthias's son, you know, with a thorough education of his people's history, and a front-row seat to the first-century AD 70 era events described in Revelation. In any court case, this eye-witness testimony would be given serious consideration, regardless of Titus becoming his patron.
Josephus never even read Revelation. He could not be an eye witness to what is written in the letter. Josephus never claimed that Jesus Christ and the angels were there ministering to those in Jerusalem while the Romans were slaughtering many.

You are taking Josephus to prove Revelation was about 70AD, and then have to incorporate the OD because it describes the book of Revelation.

The only corroboration of Josephus on any Scripture is that in 66AD, many fled Jerusalem when they saw the approaching Roman army. That was not 70AD.

Does anyone accept that Christ is coming to earth again, and bringing the angels with Him just as He promised? Until that happens, there can be no Second Coming event, period.
 
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