Are there further chances after death?

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Der Alte said:
I have read the complete Bible not just a handful of out-of-context proof texts

How many times have you read it?

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Therefore both the spiritually alive and the spiritually dead are in a conscious state of existence in the afterlife.

I agree. NT Wright makes the point that when Paul said "I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;" (Philippians 1:23) he was implicitly saying that there is a conscious existence immediately after death because otherwise he would not have described the state as being "far better" than being alive in this world.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Derf said:
The other answer involves a mental time-warp to the time after the resurrection and after the judgment where those that are tormented in the flame are not able to escape from it, as Abraham indicated, and as the Rich Man seemed resigned to. This helps to lead me away from Universal Redemption from the lake of fire (though I already showed how Jesus universally redeemed everyone from the first death, in my view).

I don't see why it should lead you away from universal redemption. Abraham may only have been saying that while the punishment is ongoing, the person suffering it isn't free to end it whenever they like and cross over from hell to heaven, and nor are people free to cross over from heaven to alleviate that suffering.

Universalism doesn't rule out the possibility of punishment, only that it lasts forever.

It's like if a road is covered by deep snow. You can't cross over that section even though we will be able to once the snow has melted. Jesus of course can cross over anytime He likes because He has a helicopter.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
I agree. NT Wright makes the point that when Paul said "I am hard pressed between the two: my desire is to depart and be with Christ, for that is far better;" (Philippians 1:23) he was implicitly saying that there is a conscious existence immediately after death because otherwise he would not have described the state as being "far better" than being alive in this world.

Unless I misunderstood, I think our friend @Derf was saying that those not in Christ at death are annihilated. As in unconscious nonexistence. And are then resurrected from nowhere to be tossed in the Lake of Fire. Which seems more cruel than standard Damnationism to me. If God already annihilated them, what is the point of recreating them in order to torture them mercilessly for all eternity?

Does he say, "Welcome back!" before he demonstrates his glorious justice?

"We're goin' to the lake; Last one in is a rotten sinner!"

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Unless I misunderstood, I think our friend @Derf was saying that those not in Christ at death are annihilated. As in unconscious nonexistence. And are then resurrected from nowhere to be tossed in the Lake of Fire. Which seems more cruel than standard Damnationism to me. If God already annihilated them, what is the point of recreating them in order to torture them mercilessly for all eternity?

Does he say, "Welcome back!" before he demonstrates his glorious justice?

"We're goin' to the lake; Last one in is a rotten sinner!"

Okay, annihilation and eternal conscious torment! And I thought God wants to be all in all. He's not very successful then.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
Okay, annihilation and eternal conscious torment! And I thought God wants to be all in all. He's not very successful then.

Uh oh, time for another parody. - lol

(Parody)
Sinner: Whoa! Where am I?
God: Welcome back!
Sinner: Welcome back?
God: Yes, I annihilated you at the end of your physical life.
Sinner: Why?
God: You weren't one of the Elect.
Sinner: Do you mean that you predestined me for this?
God: That's one way to look at it.
Sinner: How else could I look at it?
God: That my mercies are endless?
Sinner: Given the circumstances, I'm not sure I'm buying that.
God: You would see it differently if you were one of my Elect.
Sinner: So, why am I here?
God: I needed to demonstrate my love and justice to the Elect.
Sinner: So, they aren't buying it either?
God: No, they totally bought it.
Sinner: How will you demonstrate your love and justice?
God: By throwing you in the Lake of Fire.
Sinner: For how long?
God: For all eternity.
Sinner: In what universe is that justice?
God: There is only one universe. Welcome back!

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Uh oh, time for another parody. - lol

(Parody)
Sinner: Whoa! Where am I?
God: Welcome back!
Sinner: Welcome back?
God: Yes, I annihilated you at the end of your physical life.
Sinner: Why?
God: You weren't one of the Elect.
Sinner: Do you mean that you predestined me for this?
God: That's one way to look at it.
Sinner: How else could I look at it?
God: That my mercies are endless?
Sinner: Given the circumstances, I'm not sure I'm buying that.
God: You would see it differently if you were one of my Elect.
Sinner: So, why am I here?
God: I needed to demonstrate my love and justice to the Elect.
Sinner: So, they aren't buying it either?
God: No, they totally bought it.
Sinner: How will you demonstrate your love and justice?
God: By throwing you in the Lake of Fire.
Sinner: For how long?
God: For all eternity.
Sinner: In what universe is that justice?
God: There is only one universe. Welcome back!

Good parody! I'm coming to the conclusion that some/most people have to believe in the idea of an eternal hell otherwise they lack the motivation to seek God. I was reading something recently about some of the Patristic Fathers who also thought this.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
Good parody! I'm coming to the conclusion that some/most people have to believe in the idea of an eternal hell otherwise they lack the motivation to seek God. I was reading something recently about some of the Patristic Fathers who also thought this.

Absolutely!
We proved the point right here on this forum.
The majority of responders on the topic said they wouldn't be Christians if there was no afterlife. What was their motivation then? (the threat of hell) What I call spiritual extortion.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Absolutely!
We proved the point right here on this forum.
The majority of responders on the topic said they wouldn't be Christians if there was no afterlife. What was their motivation then? (the threat of hell) What I call spiritual extortion.

And spiritual extortion turns our loving heavenly Father into something more akin to a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse. What I call slander.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Absolutely!
We proved the point right here on this forum.
The majority of responders on the topic said they wouldn't be Christians if there was no afterlife. What was their motivation then? (the threat of hell) What I call spiritual extortion.

The motivation is fear. But the first commandment is to love God, not to fear Him. Love and fear cannot be coexistent because love casts out fear.

What sort of relationship can you have with God if it's based on either obliteration or fear of eternal torment? But, as I say, some of the Early Church Fathers believed that, psychologically, many people can only relate to God in this way. As you say, this forum bears the truth of that out. Probably not so much IRL though where mostly lip service is paid to the idea of ECT.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
And spiritual extortion turns our loving heavenly Father into something more akin to a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse. What I call slander.

From God the Father to godfather. You can see the psychology though.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
And spiritual extortion turns our loving heavenly Father into something more akin to a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse

Unless you're one of the Calvanist Reprobates (the predetermined damned) in which case God doesn't make you an offer (of salvation) but, even if He did, you wouldn't be able to accept.

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
From God the Father to godfather. You can see the psychology though.

Psychology?
I thought it was Psychopathology. - lol

Saint Steven · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
Unless you're one of the Calvanist Reprobates (the predetermined damned) in which case God doesn't make you an offer (of salvation) but, even if He did, you wouldn't be able to accept.

Right. They should at least get a free T-Shirt.

--- BORN TO BURN ---

Lazarus Short · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Psychology?
I thought it was Psychopathology. - lol

It is all so psycho-illogical.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Psychology?
I thought it was Psychopathology. - lol

I"d say it's not really psychology where emotions play a part but more of an intellectual understanding. I realise it sounds patronising but some of the ECF really did believe that some people could only obey God out of fear, on the same basis that very young children obey their parent/carer.

Hmm · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Right. They should at least get a free T-Shirt.

--- BORN TO BURN ---

No need to wash clean (you can't), just throw in the fiery furnace for a couple of eternities and then iron.

Der Alte · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
How many times have you read it?

I don't know. Over the past several decades I have preached and taught through the Bible numerous times.

Der Alte · Sep 9, 2021

Saint Steven said:
And spiritual extortion turns our loving heavenly Father into something more akin to a gangster godfather, making us an offer we can't refuse. What I call slander.

How many sermons have you heard on Hell? I think I can safely say zero. How many Bible studies/classes have you attended where Hell was mentioned? I think I can again safely say zero. So why do you spend so much time arguing about something you know absolutely nothing about?
I have heard one sermon on Hell and I preached it about 26 years ago.

Der Alte · Sep 9, 2021

Hmm said:
The motivation is fear. But the first commandment is to love God, not to fear Him. Love and fear cannot be coexistent because love casts out fear.
What sort of relationship can you have with God if it's based on either obliteration or fear of eternal torment? But, as I say, some of the Early Church Fathers believed that, psychologically, many people can only relate to God in this way. As you say, this forum bears the truth of that out. Probably not so much IRL though where mostly lip service is paid to the idea of ECT.

I got tired of copying but there are many more.
Genesis 20:11
11 And Abraham said, Because I thought, Surely the fear of God is not in this place; and they will slay me for my wife's sake.
Genesis 42:18
18 And Joseph said unto them the third day, This do, and live; for I fear God:
Exodus 9:30
30 But as for thee and thy servants, I know that ye will not yet fear the LORD God.
Exodus 18:21
21 Moreover thou shalt provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, men of truth, hating covetousness; and place such over them, to be rulers of thousands, and rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens:
Leviticus 19:14
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:32
32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 25:17
17 Ye shall not therefore oppress one another; but thou shalt fear thy God: for I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 25:36
36 Take thou no usury of him, or increase: but fear thy God; that thy brother may live with thee.
Leviticus 25:43, Deuteronomy 6:2, Deuteronomy 6:13, Deuteronomy 6:24, Deuteronomy 8:6
6 Therefore thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to fear him.
Deuteronomy 10:12, Deuteronomy 10:20, Deuteronomy 13:4, Deuteronomy 14:23, Deuteronomy 17:19, Deuteronomy 28:58, Deuteronomy 31:12, Deuteronomy 31:13, Joshua 4:24
Hebrews 10:30-31
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Revelation 19:5
5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Revelation 14:7
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
1 Peter 2:17
17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.
Ephesians 5:21
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.

Hmm said:
But, as I say, some of the Early Church Fathers believed that, psychologically, many people can only relate to God in this way.

Which ECF and when?

Are there further chances after death?

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You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

You can call me Steve

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Hey, I'm just this guy, you know

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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