Lake of Fire

LittleLambofJesus said:

Good question.
Apparently the Abrahamic religions of Judaism and Islam have a problem with it.
I have no problem with it myself.......

Trinity > Judaic and Islamic Objections (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
Judaic and Islamic Objections
With rare exceptions atheists and naturalists don't bother to criticize trinitarian doctrines, beyond the passing joke or dismissal, rightly seeing issues about monotheism generally, and about the teachings and status of Jesus Christ as more fundamental.
Serious critics of trinitarian doctrines are nearly always fellow Abrahamic monotheists.
Objections by Christians are discussed in the supplementary document on the history of trinitarian doctrines, section 2.2, and the supplementary document on unitarianism; here we survey Islamic and Judaic objections.

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I'm not against the Trinity, just saying that it isn't spelled out

David Cabrera said:

I'm not against the Trinity, just saying that it isn't spelled out

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I agree and thks for that clarification. I tend to steer clear of Trinity debates....

LittleLambofJesus said:

Gotta burn that dross away.............

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it, So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
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How and when would Yahweh gather them into the "furnace of Jerusalem"?
How about the feast of the Passover......

Luke 21:
23 “But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days!
For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people.
36 “Yet be being vigilant/watching in every season, beseeching that ye should be being strong to be escaping<1628> all these, the being about to be becoming, and to stand before the Son of the Man.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman.
And they shall not escape<1628>.


The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
Proof that Matthew 24 was fully fulfilled in 70 AD!
Also see: Rapture refuted

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover ;
The city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers, and foreigners from all parts, so that the whole nation may be considered as having been shut up in one prison, preparatory to the execution of the Divine vengeance ; and, according to Josephus this event took place suddenly...........

.........Meanwhile the horrors of famine grew still more melancholy and afflictive.
The Jews, for want of food were at length compelled to eat their belts, their sandals, the skins of their shields, dried grass, and even the ordure of oxen. In the depth or this horrible extremity, a Jewess of noble family urged by the intolerable cravings of hunger, slew her infant child, and prepared it for a meal ;........

The tumult and disorder which ensued upon this event, it is impossible (says Josephus) for language to describe. The Roman legions made the most horrid outcries ; the rebels, finding themselves exposed to the fury of both fire and sword, screamed dreadfully ; while the unhappy people who were pent up between the enemy and the flames, deplored their situation in the most pitiable complaints.
Those on the hill and those in the city seemed mutually to return the groans of each other. Such as were expiring through famine, were revived by this hideous scene, and seemed to acquire new spirits to deplore their misfortunes. The lamentations from the city wore re-echoed from the adjacent mountains, and places beyond Jordan.
The flames which enveloped the Temple were so violent and impetuous, that the lofty hill. on which it stood appeared, even front its deep foundations, as one large body of fire.
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The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Revelation 18:8
Thru this in one day shall be arriving<2240> Her blows, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be utterly burned
that strong Lord the GOD, the One judging Her.

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I meant to say, the burning away of dross, happens not just in the lake of fire, but also in this life....if you are one of God's elect.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Can that wicked believers be thrown in the LoF/Gehenna?

OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

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Yep....many.

mkgal1 said:

I believe the context of Mark 9:43-48 is the impending destruction (to Jesus' listeners) of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
View attachment 263211
Notice the uses of the word Ge-henna. Ge-henna is a literal valley in Jerusalem known for as a place of judgment because it was there that Israel offered sacrifices of children to the false god Molech. So as the apostate Jews murdered their believing brothers, the day would come where they themselves would suffer at the hands of Rome and end up burned in the city's destruction and thrown into the valley below. History records that this is exactly what happened.
~ Hell No, We Won't Go! The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus — A New Day Dawning

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Great post mkgal.
Preterists know it as the "Valley of Slaughter"[Armageddon] concerning Jerusalem 70AD......




Jeremiah 7:
31 “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.
32 “Therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “when it will no more be called Tophet, or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom,
but the Valley of Slaughter; for they will bury in Tophet until there is no room.
Jeremiah 19:
2 “And go out to the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, which is by the entry of the Potsherd Gate; and proclaim there the words that I will tell you,
6 “therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.

Isa 30:25
There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill
Rivers and streams of waters,
In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

James 5:
5 ye luxuriate upon the land and ye squander, ye nourish the hearts of ye, in Day of-Slaughter/sfaghV <4967>;
8 be ye patient! also stand-fast the hearts of ye, that the Parousia <3952> of the Lord has-neared/hggiken <1448>(5758);
==============================
Coincidentally, the elite Roman 10th Legion, along with Titus, camped on the same Mount that Jesus gave His 70ad Jerusalem Temple Discourse!

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Matthew 24:
Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying "be telling to us!
when shall these be being? and what the sign of Thy parousia<3952>
and full-consummation<4930> of the Age?
6 “Yet ye shall be being about to be hearing battles and hearings of battles...but not as yet the End<5056>

APRIL, A.D. 70 - PHASE ONE
THE ROMAN ARMY ARRIVES AT JERUSALEM TO PREPARE THE SIEGE

The first night of Titus' encampment with the 15th, 3rd and 18th Legions, the 5th Legion arrived from Emmaus and set camp north of the city on Mount Scopus.
Later the next day, the famed 10th Legion (founded by Julius Caesar) marched in from Jericho and camped on the Mount of Olives, east of the city.
Instead of waiting to starve the Jews into submission, Titus decides to assault many different parts of the city and overwhelm the defenders. Titus was early on in the middle of the fighting with his soldiers. At least two times, Titus and his detachment are surrounded by defenders, only to escape unharmed.

‘Admirable as were the engines constructed by all the legions, those of the tenth were of peculiar excellence. Their scorpions were of greater power and their stone-projectors larger, and with these they not only kept in check the sallying parties, but those also on the ramparts. The stones that were thrown were of the weight of a talent, and had a range of two furlongs and more. The shock, not only to such as first met it, but even to those beyond them for a considerable distance, was irresistible. The Jews, however, at the first, could guard against the stone; for its approach was intimated, not only to the ear by its whiz, but also, being white, to the eye by its brightness.

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LittleLambofJesus said:

Please visit my "Jewish Wars" thread

Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada
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Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus coming out, departed from the Temple.
3 Yet of Him sitting on the Mount of the Olives, the Disciples came toward to Him according to own saying.............
Mark 13
1 And He going forth out of the Temple,
3 And of sitting of Him into the Mount of the Olives overlooking the Temple,
Luke 21
5 and of some saying concerning the Temple,
9 “Yet whenever ye should be hearing battles and tumults<181>, no may be being frightened<4422>, for is binding these to be becoming,
but not immediately the End<5056>

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mkgal1 said:

If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.

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Hello mkgal.

Let's look at the word "lake" used in the Bible.........

The Greek word for LAKE<3041>, as shown in Revelation, is used in 2 chapters of Luke [5 verses] and 3 chapters of Revelation [5 verses]
This site shows the word used in various Bible versions, [which I haven't yet studied on]:

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

3041. limne λίμνη (limnē) probably from 3040 occurs 10 times in 10 verses
(through the idea of nearness of shore); a pond (large or small):--lake.

3 of the events that occur in these 2 chapters is the "catching of a boat load of fish", "Jesus calming the storm", and the event of the "Kamikaze swine/demons":

Luke 5:
1 And it came to pass, in the multitude pressing on Him to hear the word of God, that He was standing beside the lake<3041> of Gennesaret<1082>,
2 and He saw two boats standing beside the lake<3041>, and the fishers, having gone away from them, were washing the nets,
Luke 8:22
22 And it came to pass, on one of the days, that He Himself went into a boat with His disciples, and said unto them, 'We may go over to the other side of the lake<3041>;' and they set forth,
23 and as they are sailing he fell deeply asleep, and there came down a storm of wind to the lake<3041>, and they were filling, and were in peril.
33 and the demons having gone forth from the man, did enter into the swine, and the herd rushed down the steep to the lake<3041>, and were choked.
Luke 5:1 mentions the name of a lake: the lake of Gennesaret, which according to Matt and Luk, lies by the land of Gennesaret.

G1082. Gennesaret of Hebrew origin (compare H3672); Gennesaret (i.e. Kinnereth),
a lake and plain in Palestine:--Gennesaret.

Luke 5:1
And it came to pass, in the multitude pressing on him to hear the word of God, that he was standing beside the lake of Gennesaret<1082>(Gennēsaret),

Mark 6:53
And having passed over, they came upon the land of Gennesaret, and drew to the shore

1082. Gennesaret Γεννησαρέτ (Gennēsaret) occurs 3 times in 3 verses
of Hebrew origin (compare 3672); Gennesaret (i.e. Kinnereth),
a lake and plain in Palestine:--Gennesaret.

That word is vaguely similar to this Greek word "Gehenna":
1067. Geena γέεννα (geenna)of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011);
valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem, used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment:--hell.

Some interesting facts about Lake Gennesaret:

Sea of Galilee - Wikipedia
(Redirected from Lake of Gennesaret)

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There are 2 other forms of the greek word for lake, all 3 having the same 1st 3 letters:
Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

3041. limne probably from 3040 (through the idea of nearness of shore); a pond (large or small):--lake.
3040. limen apparently a primary word; [Compare 2568]. Occurs 3 times in 2 verses
a harbor:--haven.[ 2568. Kaloi Limenes plural of 2570 and 3040; Good Harbors, i.e. Fairhaven, a bay of Crete:--fair havens.]
3042. limos probably from 3007
(through the idea of destitution); a scarcity of food:--dearth, famine, hunger.

G3042 means "FAMINE", and also has the same 1st 3 letters as the former 2 Greek words.
G3042 (YLT)
is used in all 3 verses of the Jerusalem/Temple discourses in the Gospels
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Please visit my Gehenna and Lake of Fire thread:

Gehenna and the Lake of Fire in NT

Matthew 23:
1 Then Jesus spake to the multitudes, and to his disciples, 2saying, ‘On the seat of Moses sat down the scribes and the Pharisees;
15 ‘Woe to you, Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! that ye go round the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever it may happen — ye are making him a son of gehenna<1067> twofold more than yourselves.
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna<1067>
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Der Alter said:

Let us read what John said about the lake of fire in Rev.
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.​

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Hello.
There just happens to be a thread on the "2nd death"............

"appointed to die once" and "the second death"

..................................

I see that the lake of fire is symbolic, many images in the Book of Revelation are, to represent true things. There is anguish depicted, with remorse and gnashing of teeth, that lasts, as the way of salvation is narrow, it is just through Christ. Even people who have not heard of Christ already have a chance, with repentance that God would not have them perish, but that is not available to those who choose themselves to reject Christ, blaspheming the Spirit of God.

Der Alte said:

Post below previously posted, and ignored this thread.

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Let us read what John said about the lake of fire in Rev.
The lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
The verb translated "tormented" is plural. So although the Greek word for "they" is not in the text, the plural verb makes it read correctly in English.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is no more death after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Hello.
There just happens to be a thread on the "2nd death"............

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Tell me why should I read or respond to your post when you apparently didn't bother to read mine. You blew it off with one sentence.

FredVB said:

I see that the lake of fire is symbolic, many images in the Book of Revelation are, to represent true things. There is anguish depicted, with remorse and gnashing of teeth, that lasts, as the way of salvation is narrow, it is just through Christ. Even people who have not heard of Christ already have a chance, with repentance that God would not have them perish, but that is not available to those who choose themselves to reject Christ, blaspheming the Spirit of God.

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Not according to the early church. But that is a nice cop out anything that doesn't fit your agenda hocus pocus make it symbolic.

LittleLambofJesus said:

Hello.
There just happens to be a thread on the "2nd death"............

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Tell me why should I read or respond to your post when you apparently didn't bother to read mine? You blew it off with one sentence.

mkgal1 said:

* * * Notice the uses of the word Ge-henna. Ge-henna is a literal valley in Jerusalem known for as a place of judgment because it was there that Israel offered sacrifices of children to the false god Molech. * * *

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This is totally wrong! It is internet gossip.
There was a valley near Jerusalem that was used to burn trash and I assume bodies but it was not Gehinnom, it was the Kidron valley.
I might suggest you examine some of your other beliefs that are based on false information.
…..Note there is no “archaeological nor literary evidence in support of this claim, [that Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump] in either the earlier intertestamental or the later rabbinic sources” If Gehenna was ever used as a garbage dump there should be broken pottery, tools, utensils, bones, etc. but there is no such evidence.
= = = = =

Der Alte said:

Tell me why should I read or respond to your post when you apparently didn't bother to read mine. You blew it off with one sentence.

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That is one option for a response.

brinny said:

It is the main focus.

Isn't this why Jesus Christ was crucified on a cross, shedding His blood, and dying?

Wasn't a Savior needed to be the "Remedy" for a sin-cursed world for any who would repent? (as it is written in John 3:16), thus saving any who repented from such a fate?

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The "Fate" is not being with God. That is what Hell is.
It's not that it goes on for Eternity. It clearly doesn't.
But time doesn't exist after death, so it's an "eternal" result.
And the "Fire" is your soul never getting the forgiveness it requires.
It burns. You are "burned" by your sins.

mkgal1 said:

I'm of the Franciscan belief that God would have become incarnate even if Adam hadn't sinned.

Quoting Fr Richard Rohr ~ For Duns Scotus, the incarnation of God and the redemption of the world could never be a mere mop-up exercise in response to human sinfulness, but had to be the proactive work of God from the very beginning. We were “chosen in Christ before the world was made” (Ephesians 1:4). Our sin could not possibly be the motive for the incarnation—or we were steering the cosmic ship! Only perfect love and divine self-revelation could inspire God to come in human form. God never merely reacts, but supremely and freely acts—out of love.

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This is amazing!

You're the first professing Christian on this forum to directly and openly claim that Christs cross work was (potentially) unnecessary. Altogether not needed, his ministry without anyone to save.....that is amazing.

I've heard universalists deny Christs Cross work (indirectly) by claiming that all people will be saved, regardless of faith or lack thereof. And obviously totally undermining the message of faith in Christ to be saved from (....). So it makes no difference whether we accept Christ or not, we will still be saved. Thus undoing all the perfect work and life of Christ, so ultimately the Cross is denied but in an covert manner.

This view is just Christ would enter creation with or without lost to be saved. And if no-one to save, it appears his ministry is utterly pointless. The Cross is an optional extra.

That, is, amazing.

FredVB said:

I see that the lake of fire is symbolic, many images in the Book of Revelation are, to represent true things. There is anguish depicted, with remorse and gnashing of teeth, that lasts, as the way of salvation is narrow, it is just through Christ. Even people who have not heard of Christ already have a chance, with repentance that God would not have them perish, but that is not available to those who choose themselves to reject Christ, blaspheming the Spirit of God.

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So you think of things that are symbolic, as not being true?

martymonster said:

I meant to say, the burning away of dross, happens not just in the lake of fire, but also in this life....if you are one of God's elect.

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Scripture?

Der Alte said:

The Lazarus story was not introduced as a parable and Jesus did not explain it to His disciples afterward.
Abraham was a actual, historical person. If he was not in the place Jesus described and did not speak the words Jesus said, Jesus was a liar. Would Jesus use a fictional story that never happened to explain Bible truth?

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I agree this story was to represent actual people that Jesus' audience would have recognized. The cast of characters is as follows; namely...

The "rich man", clothed in fine linen and faring sumptuously every day represented the high priest Caiphas with his high priestly vestments, eating from the finest of the people's sacrifices every day.

The rich man's "five brothers" of his "Father's house" which Caiphas wished to warn were the five sons of Annas who would hold the high priesthood over the Temple as well as their "Father" the high priest Annas.

The "beggar named Lazarus", covered with sores, was the real, beloved Lazarus who died, probably of leprosy passed on by his father Simon the leper. He had to stay outside the "gate" of the "rich man's" Temple because of his unclean state. He wished to eat even the crumbs from the table of the "rich man" because the shewbread in the Temple was only allowed for those priests who were ritually clean to share in this privilege. There is no emphasis in this story put on the beggar Lazarus being buried after death, because Jesus was actually going to raise him from the dead four days after his death. Once Christ had actually performed this miracle of raising Lazarus from the dead, the covetous Pharisees would have remembered this story Jesus told about Lazarus, and would have recognized that the entire story was spoken in condemnation of themselves and their corrupt high priesthood.

The "great gulf fixed" between the dead Caiphas seeing Abraham with Lazarus represented the deep Kidron Valley between the city of Jerusalem and the Mount of Olives directly in view across this Kidron Valley. In AD 70 when Jerusalem's inhabitants were under siege, Christ would gather all the resurrected saints to meet Him in the air above that Mount of Olives before they returned to heaven with him. The wicked dead, including the "rich man" Caiphas, would all experience annihilation in that city, which would turn into a literal Lake of Fire at the end.

The living inhabitants of Jerusalem held captive in the city at that point were going to see the resurrected Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets being gathered to Christ in the resurrection, with themselves thrust out of that resurrection experience (Luke 13:28). Lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth for those besieged inhabitants of Jerusalem who would claim that they "had eaten and drunk in the Lord's presence, and had heard Him teach in their streets" (Luke 13:26). None of that mattered, since most had already rejected their Messiah when He was among them.

mkgal1 said:

If this phrase means "hell" then why didn't Jesus or Paul (or any of the disciples) ever teach that the Lake of Fire is a place of everlasting punishment in the afterlife? You'd expect that to be their main focus if that were the case - and we'd have that teaching recorded for us in the Scripture.....but I don't see it.

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The Lake of Fire is a metaphorical reference to Gehenna. Gehenna, The Valley of the Son of Hinnom, Tophet, and the Lake of Fire, refer to a valley outside of Jerusalem. It is not "Hell" as the English portrays it. The English concept of Hell as a place of eternal torment is not taught in Scripture. Calling any of these Hell is simply wrong and misleading. Jesus spoke of the wicked being cast into Gehenna. People think, because of this English translation, that Gehenna is some underground cavern of burning. It's not. It is a valley outside of Jerusalem. Anyone can go there today and visit. However, When Christ returns and the battle of Armageddon takes place God is going to destroy those who come to battle against Him and it is in this valley where the corpses of these men will be burned. Jesus said that the wicked would also be cast here. These bodies will burn there for quite some time. But, they will not burn forever and it is not some place inside the Earth. Imaging a valley full of dead bodies burning and it's easy to see John's metaphor of a Lake of Fire.