Are there further chances after death?

Derf said:

Have you thought about why you understand it that way? Is it because that's how the bible describes it, or is it because that's how some Christians have described it to you? I was in the latter camp, and I'm having a hard time moving to the former camp. Which makes me look for a third camp.

Maybe this question will help. I've talked about where the bible defines "second death"; where does it define "first death"? If you immediately think "death = separation", try to find that definition anywhere in the bible. I couldn't find it, and I've tried. The best I've seen (and it's not all that great, imo) is that because Adam didn't really die ON the day he ate the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, then "death" must mean something different from what "death" usually means in our language.

Click to expand...

When it comes to "second death" and "lake of fire" there's only Revelation to go by. So it's like draw the best conclusion you can, with what little there is to work with. Some just dismiss Revelation altogether.

Derf said:

Ok. They can’t all be right, can they? So we have these kind of conversations—bringing scripture to bear since that is the only authoritative source we have—not so we can just have 3 opinions, but so we as brothers in Christ can be united in one doctrine, if at all possible.

Click to expand...

What Steve does in his lecture is weigh out which of the three views has the most support scripturally. To my surprise, he seems to lean towards universalism. I say that I was surprised, because he's definitely not into a soft gospel.

Derf said:

@Saint Steven
And just to show you that’s my goal, I’ll offer the best solution yet, imho, at deconflicting all three.

1st. Let’s handle annihilationism first. God said, when you eat if the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, you will die. Adam died. He was annihilated. Fortunately God is able to resurrect someone from even annihilation.
2nd. Damnationism. Anyone who rejects the only begotten Son of God, and His immortal choice to become a man and die and live again, is damned.
3rd. Ultimate Redemption. Well, just like for the other two, the best I can do is acknowledge that although there are some that are both annihilated and damned (John 3:18 (KJV) …he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.) they can be redeemed, though I haven’t any clue from the scripture that such can happen after they are thrown into the lake of fire.

It seems that we have to allow for those who refuse to be converted to a righteous person, since righteousness is as much a state of mind (or spirit) as a state of action.

Click to expand...

Like a walk around the block, we didn't really get anywhere. Right back to your presupposition. Have you seen this scripture?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

MMXX said:

What Steve does in his lecture is weigh out which of the three views has the most support scripturally. To my surprise, he seems to lean towards universalism. I say that I was surprised, because he's definitely not into a soft gospel.

Click to expand...

Nor am I. As I have said here on CF before, the "lost" will not enter the Kingdom with a free pass and under a shower of rose petals. They will be in for age-long punishment and correction, BUT it is for their eventual benefit, and for the glory of God.

Hmm said:

That's a very powerful passage in support of universalism/ultimate restoration for all. It's meaning is perfectly clear (Paul was perfectly able to write straightforwardly and he should be read that way) and irrefutable unless you're prepared to engage in mental gymnastics and frightening contortionist positions in an attempt to give it a different or opposite meaning.

Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.
They will typically land with both feet on the word "many".
Saying, "Many doesn't mean all."

Then we have to explain that it says "THE many", not just "many".
How many were made sinners through the disobedience of the one man? (all)
So, "the many" equals all. Now apply that to "the many" that will be made righteous.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Like a walk around the block, we didn't really get anywhere. Right back to your presupposition. Have you seen this scripture?

Romans 5:18-19
Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people,
so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people.
19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

Lazarus Short said:

Nor am I. As I have said here on CF before, the "lost" will not enter the Kingdom with a free pass and under a shower of rose petals. They will be in for age-long punishment and correction, BUT it is for their eventual benefit, and for the glory of God.

Click to expand...

That sounds pretty severe. But I guess not severe enough for some.

Saint Steven said:

In case we haven't discussed this already, there are three doctrinal views of the final judgment. All three are biblical. (adherents can quote verses to support them) And all three are conflicting. (they all disagree biblically)
1) Damnationism
2) Annihilationism
3) Ultimate Redemption (UR)

Here's an unbiased video explaining all three views.

Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

Click to expand...

I like Steve Gregg. I hear him on the radio every now and then (he's not usually on during my drive time). I listened to part of that talk (thanks for posting it--I will finish it sometime soon, hopefully), and you might notice he said the same thing I had in this post to @MMXX. He noted that the scriptures don't define "death" as separation. Which in my mind leaves us with the first death as the penalty for sin, and it is total, or what I think corresponds fairly with "annihilation". The second death (which IS defined for us, as "the lake of fire" in Revelation).

I don't think Steve went where I went with it, but some of his conclusions were similar.

I'll repeat my view here with additional info: If the first death is the one that is the wages of sin, and we actually experience the full death when our body dies, then there's no more need for payment for sin. Christ's death in some way allows us to be resurrected (I don't know if that's a method allowing His power to be applied to our resurrection or something else), as well as everyone that is descended from Adam. Thus, Jesus is the savior of all men--everybody will be saved from the first death:
[1Ti 4:10 KJV] 10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
But what about the bold text? If some are more specially saved than others, what does that mean? I think it allows for the lake of fire AFTER salvation from death. And salvation from death, or resurrection, necessitates the lake of fire for those who will not submit to God's authority (like Satan, who Gregg mentions as the original target of the lake of fire).

This submission to God's authority is my own conjecture that distinguishes between the "resurrection to life", and the "resurrection to judgment" (or condemnation) Jesus talked about in John 5:29, as well as the key to remaining in the book of life in [Rev 20:15 KJV] 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
and [Rev 21:8 KJV] 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note that Rev 21:8 is referencing the current sinfulness of these people. Those that ARE fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc.

Note also that there doesn't seem to be a salvation from second death, was entered. Jesus' death was for the first death, in my view, but not the second. That doesn't preclude there being some kind of way out, but it isn't mentioned anywhere.

Derf said:

I listened to part of that talk (thanks for posting it--I will finish it sometime soon, hopefully), and you might notice he said the same thing I had in this post to @MMXX. He noted that the scriptures don't define "death" as separation. Which in my mind leaves us with the first death as the penalty for sin, and it is total, or what I think corresponds fairly with "annihilation". The second death (which IS defined for us, as "the lake of fire" in Revelation).

Click to expand...

Great, I think that presentation by Steve Gregg does a terrific job of defining all three views in an amazingly unbiased way. Thanks for taking the time to review what you could of that for now and committing to finishing it when you have time. Kudos.

Just so you know where I am coming from, if someone will take the time to understand the three views and either make an informed choice, or at least have a working understanding of the three views, I am very happy with that. I am fine with an informed decision on any of the three views, or even an informed decision as undecided. I am only bothered by those whose mind is made up and refuse to even try to understand the other views. So, I am very pleased that you are doing your homework on this. Much appreciated.

However, I am struggling with your choice of the word "annihilation" in the context of the first death. It makes it sound too final. Especially if you believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead. (of which Christ was the firstfruits) Is there a better word to use in communication your idea there? In reference to physical death, it doesn't seem to fit. IMHO

Derf said:

This submission to God's authority is my own conjecture that distinguishes between the "resurrection to life", and the "resurrection to judgment" (or condemnation) Jesus talked about in John 5:29, as well as the key to remaining in the book of life in [Rev 20:15 KJV] 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
and [Rev 21:8 KJV] 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note that Rev 21:8 is referencing the current sinfulness of these people. Those that ARE fearful, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, etc.

Note also that there doesn't seem to be a salvation from second death, was entered. Jesus' death was for the first death, in my view, but not the second. That doesn't preclude there being some kind of way out, but it isn't mentioned anywhere.

Click to expand...

These are good points as well. Consider this. Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.


The Refining Furnace

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me. All of them are copper, tin, iron, and lead inside the furnace; they are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Because all of you have become dross, behold, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 Just as one gathers silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin into the furnace to melt with a fiery blast, so I will gather you in My anger and wrath, leave you there, and melt you. 21 Yes, I will gather you together and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you will be melted within the city. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted within the city. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have poured out My wrath upon you.’ ” Ezekiel 22:17-22 (Berean Study Bible).

Saint Steven said:

However, I am struggling with your choice of the word "annihilation" in the context of the first death. It makes it sound too final. Especially if you believe in the bodily resurrection of the dead. (of which Christ was the firstfruits) Is there a better word to use in communication your idea there? In reference to physical death, it doesn't seem to fit. IMHO

Click to expand...

I'm not sure you getting my point. I'm looking at "death" as "complete and utter death", rather than some kind of hybrid of life and death. So when you say that annihilation doesn't seem to fit with physical death, I would agree, and that's not what I was proposing. I'm proposing an utter end to the person when he dies. No soul in hades, no spirit floating around somewhere, and no body, because it decays. Just complete and utter cessation of activity, function, interaction with other persons or environments. "Annihilation" seems like it fits the bill perfectly--the person doesn't exist any more.

You might consider using Jesus' answer to the Sadducees regarding the multiply married woman as a rebuttal--that God is the God of the living, not the dead. But Jesus qualified that: it was in regard to "the resurrection".
[Mat 22:31-32 KJV] 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jesus wasn't saying that they were currently alive, because that would mean the resurrection would have already happened. He was using the reference to point out that their theology of "the resurrection of the dead" was wrong. Thus, God is the future God of the future living with respect to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Saint Steven said:

These are good points as well. Consider this. Jesus said...

Mark 9:49
Everyone will be salted with fire.

Malachi 3:2
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.


The Refining Furnace

Then the word of the LORD came to me, saying, 18 “Son of man, the house of Israel has become dross to Me. All of them are copper, tin, iron, and lead inside the furnace; they are but the dross of silver. 19 Therefore this is what the Lord GOD says: ‘Because all of you have become dross, behold, I will gather you into Jerusalem. 20 Just as one gathers silver, copper, iron, lead, and tin into the furnace to melt with a fiery blast, so I will gather you in My anger and wrath, leave you there, and melt you. 21 Yes, I will gather you together and blow on you with the fire of My wrath, and you will be melted within the city. 22 As silver is melted in a furnace, so you will be melted within the city. Then you will know that I, the LORD, have poured out My wrath upon you.’ ” Ezekiel 22:17-22 (Berean Study Bible).

Click to expand...

I haven't completely ruled out the idea that the lake of fire is a refining fire, but I don't think your passages are referring to that, rather the refining fire is applied to the "house of Israel" in Eze 22:17, or the "sons of Jacob in Mal 3:8. Mark 9 might be what you are talking about, but it still seems to speak of the fire as something that removes people, not just people's sinful character.

Derf said:

I'm not sure you getting my point. I'm looking at "death" as "complete and utter death", rather than some kind of hybrid of life and death. So when you say that annihilation doesn't seem to fit with physical death, I would agree, and that's not what I was proposing. I'm proposing an utter end to the person when he dies. No soul in hades, no spirit floating around somewhere, and no body, because it decays. Just complete and utter cessation of activity, function, interaction with other persons or environments. "Annihilation" seems like it fits the bill perfectly--the person doesn't exist any more.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the clarification on your position. I appreciate it.
Here's something to consider.

There are 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible translation. Reviewing these passages shows something quite different than what you are describing. Furthermore, if what you are proposing is correct, Jesus was being very misleading in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. But I imagine you will say it is a parable (not a story) so it should not be taken literally. But even then... ??? (seems misleading)

Derf said:

You might consider using Jesus' answer to the Sadducees regarding the multiply married woman as a rebuttal--that God is the God of the living, not the dead. But Jesus qualified that: it was in regard to "the resurrection".
[Mat 22:31-32 KJV] 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Click to expand...

Looks like you forgot the punch line. (from memory)
"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. For to him, all are alive."

And here's another Universalist scripture from my file of biblical treasures.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Saint Steven said:

Thanks for the clarification on your position. I appreciate it.
Here's something to consider.

There are 29 references to the "realm of the dead" in the NIV Bible translation. Reviewing these passages shows something quite different than what you are describing. Furthermore, if what you are proposing is correct, Jesus was being very misleading in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. But I imagine you will say it is a parable (not a story) so it should not be taken literally. But even then... ??? (seems misleading)

Click to expand...

You might also notice that "realm of the dead" is not in most translations. So it seems like the NIV translators took some liberties with the translation of "Sheol" or "Hades". Nevertheless, "realm of the dead" could equally apply to "the grave" just like "Sheol" and "Hades" can.

I have two possible answers on the Rich Man and Lazarus story. And I admit I've gone back and forth on it as to whether it's a parable or not. Because of the overlap with the real Lazarus who was raised from the dead, and the mighty witness his return to life provided to the leaders of the Jews (who then sought to kill him because of that witness), I think it's a parable pointing to the real-life event, similar to how the good Samaritan story was likely a parable that pointed to a real-life event.

The other answer involves a mental time-warp to the time after the resurrection and after the judgment where those that are tormented in the flame are not able to escape from it, as Abraham indicated, and as the Rich Man seemed resigned to. This helps to lead me away from Universal Redemption from the lake of fire (though I already showed how Jesus universally redeemed everyone from the first death, in my view).

Saint Steven said:

Looks like you forgot the punch line. (from memory)
"God is not the God of the dead, but of the living. For to him, all are alive."

And here's another Universalist scripture from my file of biblical treasures.

Romans 14:9
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that
he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.

Click to expand...

I don't think I forgot "For to him, all are alive." It's not in the Matthew account I cited. But I don't see much problem with that. Remember that even the dead are alive to Him, according to your citation. This can't mean that they are alive, else they wouldn't be called "dead" and need to be resurrected (the subject of the passage). The way Jesus presents makes the most sense (to me, anyway) as an assured future state. Just like Paul told the Thessalonians not to grieve over their loved ones--NOT because they were still alive in some shadowy underworld, but because they could be sure their loved ones would rise again when Christ returns. 1 Th 4:16.

This has been an intriguing and interesting discussion, St. Steve!

Hmm said:

I'm not sure why you say that the onus will be on the person..God says that He will ultimately be "all in all" and this requires things like freely loving Him. Obviously to get to that state from a position where you have rejected or hated God is not just something anyone can just decide to do. We can only love what we know and so it will take a process over probably a very long time for God to give that person the experiences of Himself and of themselves to enable them to do this.
God will never torment anyone. Of course no-one can torment anyone into loving you.
Of course no-one's going to come to God if they're in a lake of fire. You think of the lake of fire and sulfur as punitive because you believe in ECT but fire is often used in the Bible to depict a process of purification, and sulfur was used at the time to help burn off impurities from metal.

Click to expand...

I have read the complete Bible not just a handful of out-of-context proof texts which seem to support a particular viewpoint.
The lake of fire passages, in context.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
…..The terms “the lake of fire” and “the second death” are interchangeable.
“The lake of fire” is “the second death” and “the second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
…..We also see that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later, in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone/anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
…..Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life; it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
If “hell” refers to the grave, graves are empty holes. Empty cannot be literally thrown anywhere.
Since neither death nor hell could/did die a first death they can’t die a second death.
But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
My name for these two beings are the angel of death and the demon of hell. Feel free to call them anything you want. They are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
….More verses which show that the LOF is not synonymous with death or destruction.
Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.”
“No more death” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says 8 groups of the unrighteous “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.”
If there is “no more death” after vs. 4 then those thrown into the lake of fire in vs. 8 do not die although it is called the “second death.”.

Derf said:

You might also notice that "realm of the dead" is not in most translations. So it seems like the NIV translators took some liberties with the translation of "Sheol" or "Hades". Nevertheless, "realm of the dead" could equally apply to "the grave" just like "Sheol" and "Hades" can.

Click to expand...

Either way you define it, doesn't it indicate that physical death is not annihilation but rather there is an afterlife? Even the word "afterlife" indicates such.

Derf said:

I don't think I forgot "For to him, all are alive." It's not in the Matthew account I cited. But I don't see much problem with that. Remember that even the dead are alive to Him, according to your citation. This can't mean that they are alive, else they wouldn't be called "dead" and need to be resurrected (the subject of the passage). The way Jesus presents makes the most sense (to me, anyway) as an assured future state. Just like Paul told the Thessalonians not to grieve over their loved ones--NOT because they were still alive in some shadowy underworld, but because they could be sure their loved ones would rise again when Christ returns. 1 Th 4:16.

This has been an intriguing and interesting discussion, St. Steve!

Click to expand...

Perhaps we should explore how your position fits with the immortality of the soul and my definition of life and death. It seems that you do not believe that the soul is immortal, if it can be annihilated.

I define life and death this way, please react. Thanks.
1) Physical life and physical death
2) Spiritual life and spiritual death

- We are all born physically alive but spiritually dead.
- Those who come to Christ in this physical life are both physically alive and spiritually alive.
- At physical death, those alive in Christ are physically dead but still spiritually alive.
- Those not in Christ at death are both physically dead and spiritually dead when they enter the afterlife.
- Therefore both the spiritually alive and the spiritually dead are in a conscious state of existence in the afterlife.
- I think this conscious state of existence is what Christ was referring to when he said "to God, everyone is alive".
- Ultimate Redemption then indicates that those who die physically without having attained spiritual life in Christ will find that spiritual life in the afterlife before they enter the kingdom of heaven.
- This is what Hades, or Sheol, or the Grave, or the realm of the dead (whatever you choose to call it) is intended for. An actual place where the spirits of the dead dwell. Existing in a conscious state.

Here is an interesting citation.

Isaiah 14:9-11 NIV
The realm of the dead below is all astir to meet you at your coming; it rouses the spirits of the departed to greet you— all those who were leaders in the world; it makes them rise from their thrones— all those who were kings over the nations. 10 They will all respond,
they will say to you,
“You also have become weak, as we are;
you have become like us.”
11 All your pomp has been brought down to the grave,
along with the noise of your harps;
maggots are spread out beneath you
and worms cover you.