20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
If so, then your view looks like this. It makes no sense.

saying peace and safety (the tribulation)
Jesus's Second Coming (the Day of the Lord)

the futurist view is

saying peace and safety
the beginning years of the Day of the Lord
the tribulation
Jesus's Second Coming

How does your view make any sense? Did you somehow miss that Paul wrote that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Where does that fit in your view?

In other words, when exactly does the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" happen in relation to Christ's second coming in your view?

How long do you think the "sudden destruction" will last?

And how exactly does the day of the Lord come as a thief in the night in your view?

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
Jesus is the one who put 2000 years between His first coming and His second coming, to full Daniel 9:24 to seal up the vision and prophecy about the little horn, in the time of the end, who dares to make war on Jesus in Daniel 8:25. Take it up with Him.

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

What do you think it means when it says "to anoint the most Holy"? What do you think it means when it says "to make an end of sins"?

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Now it seems you have been listening to or reading those who are in error regarding the millennium. It is NOT a perfect time, or of prosperity. It is a very difficult time for the cities of the world have fallen, so civilization as we know it would be gone. It is a time of hard work to just live. Wild animals roam around. there is no corner store, chemist, doctor etc etc. No internet, phones etc. Just hard work to plant and tend animals that you could find.

This is not biblical, and the bad theology SG seems to hang his private interpretation on. His answer is not biblical, because this point you make is not biblical. They both are private opinions.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you think it means when it says "to anoint the most Holy"?

When Jesus returns to become the recognized rightful King of Israel by the Jews. Anoint the most holy is in Psalms 2
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Spiritual Jew said:
What do you think it means when it says "to make an end of sins"?

When the Jews to Jesus in the middle of the 7 years, in Revelation 12:10, to receive salvation and be included in the kingdom of God.

Also based on Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

Jesus Himself speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth, and having just executed judgment on the heathen who try to make war against Him in verses 17-20.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

jeffweedaman said:
Are you talking about Zech 8:23 that I quoted from you ??

23 The Lord of armies says this: ‘In those days ten people from all the nations will grasp the garment of a Jew, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”’”

Since when have people from the whole world had the opportunity to hear such good news? surely this is a current reality.....only through our Lord Jesus Christ right?

The nation of Israel is not currently pointing the rest of the world to Jesus Christ.

Not literally, and not figuratively.

Now if you want to replace Israel, and state the church is currently in charge of Jerusalem, and pointing all to Christ from Jerusalem, I still do not see that literally nor figuratively.

The church is not centered in Jerusalem. The verse is not for the church. This verse is for the church:

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature."

Nothing about bringing them all back to Jerusalem.

"And I will bring them, and they shall dwell in the midst of Jerusalem: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God, in truth and in righteousness."

"Yea, many people and strong nations shall come to seek the Lord of hosts in Jerusalem, and to pray before the Lord. Thus saith the Lord of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you."

Jerusalem was destroyed and desolate for many years. Christians did not restore Jerusalem.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
We have seen from various Scripture that “the beginning” of this age kicked in at the beginning of creation. Well, Scripture also equally delineates that the end of this age will occur at the restoration of creation, the time when Jesus returns to make all things new

What Scripture claims "this evil age" was created in Genesis 1:1?

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
How does your view make any sense? Did you somehow miss that Paul wrote that "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" will accompany the arrival of the day of the Lord as a thief in the night (1 Thess 5:2-3)? Where does that fit in your view?

In other words, when exactly does the "sudden destruction" from which "they shall not escape" happen in relation to Christ's second coming in your view?

How long do you think the "sudden destruction" will last?

And how exactly does the day of the Lord come as a thief in the night in your view?

In 1Thessalonians5, the world will be saying peace and safety - because it will think it has entered the beginning years of the messianic age, with the Antichrist being the perceived messiah, King of Israel. But it will be a false messianic age.

The sudden destruction that comes up on them and the beginning years of the Day of the Lord, will be because totally unexpected the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claims to have achieved God-hood.

That act will take place around the 3 year mark into the 7 years. We cannot pinpoint it.

The act reveals the Antichrist to be the man of sin, and not the messiah after all. The act triggers the beginning of the Day of Lord. And the revealed man of sin begins to persecute his own people who reject him at that point.

So the sudden destruction begins like a flash flood. The destruction upon the world last until Jesus returns around 4 years later.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

Timtofly said:
How can you claim this when this is the time for:

"putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place."

This is not Paradise coming down from heaven. This is the time, life on earth will be equal to that in heaven. God's Will will be lived out on earth. No sin, or sin nature, so no death and decay. No Satan, so no deception, and reasoning against God's Will.

Tim, the translation you are using is leading you to the wrong conclusions.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

If you were to dig up their graves, their bones would still be there.

The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints has not happened yet.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
If you were to dig up their graves, their bones would still be there.

The resurrection of the martyred great tribulation saints has not happened yet.

They are there in spirit reigning with Christ. The general resurrection arrives when Jesus comes.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
They are there in spirit reigning with Christ. The general resurrection arrives when Jesus comes.

But the fact that the remains of their bodies are still in graves means that Amil view of Revelation 20 as another camera view of events that have already happen - incorrect.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
But the fact that the remains of their bodies are still in graves means that Amil view of Revelation 20 as another camera view of events that have already happen - incorrect.

It is not talking about physical resurrection. The 1st resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ. The physical resurrection of all mankind happens at the end of Revelation 20. Please check it out.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
It is not talking about physical resurrection. The 1st resurrection is the physical resurrection of Christ. The physical resurrection of all mankind happens at the end of Revelation 20. Please check it out.

Check out verse 5.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The resurrection of martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4 is referring to their former physical bodies.

Don't take my critique of the Amil view as personal. I am critiquing the view not you personally.

DavidPT · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The physical resurrection of all mankind happens at the end of Revelation 20. Please check it out.

Let's assume that for a moment.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group A---the dead, small and great----and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Group B---sea gave up the dead which were in it----and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group C---and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them----and they were judged every man according to their works.

With these 3 groups in mind let's now look at 1 Thessalonians 4 for a moment.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Group 1----the dead in Christ shall rise first

Group 2---we which are alive and remain

As to group 1, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

As to group 2, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

One major question though----those in group 2, how do they even end up among the dead in Revelation 20 to begin with if they are still alive when the 2nd coming takes place, thus put on bodily immortality at the time, and are never physically dead at any point? Thus they don't need to be bodily raised from the dead. Obviously, probably not to you though, any judgment and rewards involving the saved take place before the time of the great white throne judgment, and not during it instead. If it is meaning during the GWTJ one then has to explain how the raptured church ends up among the dead at the GWTJ.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
Check out verse 5.

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The resurrection of martyred great tribulation saints in verse 4 is referring to their former physical bodies.

Don't take my critique of the Amil view as personal. I am critiquing the view not you personally.

The "rest of the dead" are the wicked – those who reject the Gospel call. They remain separated from God until judgement day. The wicked are barred from the presence of God upon death, although they experience it at the judgment. They are only brought to life to the degree that they are resurrected at Christ's Coming to encounter Christ, and even then it is for the solemn purpose of hearing those awful words “away from me I never knew you” at the judgment and receive their final punishment.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

DavidPT said:
Let's assume that for a moment.

Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group A---the dead, small and great----and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Group B---sea gave up the dead which were in it----and they were judged every man according to their works.

Group C---and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them----and they were judged every man according to their works.

With these 3 groups in mind let's now look at 1 Thessalonians 4 for a moment.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Group 1----the dead in Christ shall rise first

Group 2---we which are alive and remain

As to group 1, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

As to group 2, which group of the dead in Revelation 20, where each man is being judged according to their works, do you propose these will be standing among and why? Group A, B, or C?

One major question though----those in group 2, how do they even end up among the dead in Revelation 20 to begin with if they are still alive when the 2nd coming takes place, thus put on bodily immortality at the time, and are never physically dead at any point? Thus they don't need to be bodily raised from the dead. Obviously, probably not to you though, any judgment and rewards involving the saved take place before the time of the great white throne judgment, and not during it instead. If it is meaning during the GWTJ one then has to explain how the raptured church ends up among the dead at the GWTJ.

Paul is just talking about believers. That is his exclusive focus. John is showing the general resurrection of all at the end of Satan's little season and at the second coming. This corresponds with various passages in Scripture (Daniel 12:1-3, Matthew 12:41-42, Luke 11:31, John 5:28-29 and Acts 24:15).

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
When you want to be serious we can re-engage.

I agree your post was not being serious, as is this whole thread.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The "rest of the dead" are the wicked – those who reject the Gospel call. They remain separated from God until judgement day. The wicked are barred from the presence of God upon death, although they experience it at the judgment. They are only brought to life to the degree that they are resurrected at Christ's Coming to encounter Christ, and even then it is for the solemn purpose of hearing those awful words “away from me I never knew you” at the judgment and receive their final punishment.

There are a thousand years separation between the martyred tribulation saints physical resurrection and the physical rest of the dead resurrection (which would certainly include the wicked).

5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
(1) "finish the transgression"? - Jesus's Second Coming, ending the 70 weeks of years determine upon Daniel's people the Jews and Jerusalem

Can you be more specific? What exactly do you think it means to "finish the transgression"?

(2) "make an end of sins"? - when the Jews turn to Christ in the middle part of the 7 years. Revelation12:10

You can't be serious with this understanding of what "make an end of sins" means. In no way, shape or form would sins end "in the middle part of the 7 years.

(3) "make reconciliation for iniquity"? when Jesus returns to planet earth and is speaking in Ezekiel 39:21-29, the Jews in good standing with Him, forgiven of their iniquity.

So, you don't think Christ's death on the cross had anything to do with making "reconciliation for iniquity"? You think it's His return that will accomplish that?

(4) "bring in everlasting righteousness"? when Jesus returns and brings the Kingdom of Heaven to be the Kingdom of God here on this earth, Daniel 2.

Everlasting righteousness that will result in a number "as the sand of the sea" rebelling against Christ (Rev 20:8)? Really?

(5) "seal up the vision and prophecy"? when Jesus returns and the beast (the little horn person) is cast into the lake of fire, Daniel 8 and Revelation 19.

Where does Daniel 9:24-27 say anything about the beast? The beast has nothing to do with that prophecy.

(6) "anoint the most Holy”? when Jesus returns and is ruling from Jerusalem, the throne of David; God places His King on Zion, i.e. Jerusalem. Psalms 2.

You don't think Jesus was already anointed long ago?

Luke 4:14 Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. 15 He was teaching in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. 16 He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. He stood up to read, 17 and the scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written: 18 “The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to set the oppressed free, 19 to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.”

Matthew 3:13 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John. 14 But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?” 15 Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented. 16 As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting on him. 17 And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”

Peter said that Jesus ascended to the throne of David upon His resurrection:

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. 30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; 31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. 32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.

Spiritual Jew · Sep 8, 2021

keras said:
The righteousness referred to in Daniel 9:24 is everlasting. That is not yet.

When do you think that will be fulfilled exactly?

Again; Jesus sacrifice to take away the sins of the world, is a Promise, to be partly fulfilled when He Returns and fully in Eternity, after the final Judgment. Revelation 21:8

So, do you believe the end of the 70th week will occur "after the final Judgment"? I ask that because the prophecy has to be fulfilled during the 70 weeks, not after.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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