IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?
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ShineyDays2
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Question: When you say that "not every Jew will be saved" and then say that "after the tribulation* the whole nation of Israel will be saved" are you not actually saying that for the past 2,000 years plus the questionable 1,000 literal years of the
tribulation, all unsaved Jews will go to hell and only those AFTER your 1,000 years ends, everyone who walks on the ground of Israel will be saved?(which I don't agree on the 1,000 year tribulation and am just hypothesizing)
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JohnD70X7
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Question: When you say that "not every Jew will be saved" and then say that "after the tribulation* the whole nation of Israel will be saved" are you not actually saying that for the past 2,000 years plus the questionable 1,000 literal years of the
(which I don't agree on the 1,000 year tribulation and am just hypothesizing)
1,000 years tribulation???
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JohnD70X7
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Question: When you say that "not every Jew will be saved" and then say that "after the tribulation* the whole nation of Israel will be saved" are you not actually saying that for the past 2,000 years plus the questionable 1,000 literal years of the
(which I don't agree on the 1,000 year tribulation and am just hypothesizing)
What [ I ] gather from his point is that Israel will become the Messianic Nation it was intended to become in the first place, but after the two tribulations: the believer's in Jesus tribulation (the first 3.5 years of the 70th Week of Daniel †) and the Great Tribulation (the last 3.5 years of the 70th Week of Daniel ††).
† Revelation 12:17 - Revelation 13:18 especially verse 7
†† Daniel 12:11, Matthew 24:21, Revelation 3:10
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Guojing
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Question: When you say that "not every Jew will be saved" and then say that "after the tribulation* the whole nation of Israel will be saved" are you not actually saying that for the past 2,000 years plus the questionable 1,000 literal years of the
(which I don't agree on the 1,000 year tribulation and am just hypothesizing)
The answer is in the paragraph that you removed when you quote me.
You are very fond of doing this, this is the third time I noticed.
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JohnD70X7
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Galatians 3:28 (AV)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 2:11–22 (AV)
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
No, of course not. I don't know how you could conclude this.
Jeremiah alone prophecied about the New Covenant. In it there is no mention of Gentiles even though he is the prophet to the Gentiles / Nations. And the plan of God's salvation was to include Gentiles / Nations as far back as Abraham (the father of many nations) was my point. So Jeremiah omitted any distinction between Jew and Gentile in his prophecy categorizing all who would be saved as either of the House of Judah or the House of Israel.
Nice...
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JohnD70X7
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The Kingdom is the Church. It has come and has been here since Christ died on the cross:
Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
The Hebrew thought kingdom of priests was expressed through the Greek as kings as priests... Peter's account is more Hebrew in expression:
1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Echoing the original thought:
Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
What God originally intended for the entire nation Israel (but had to relegate only to the Levitical tribe see Exodus 32 as to why) is fulfilled in the Church. God's kingdom has come.
And keeping the commandments:
John 6:28–29 (AV)
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Ephesians 2:8–10 (AV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
John 3:16-18 = believe
John 16:27 - love and believe
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JohnD70X7
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The difficulty in believing the Gospel during the tribulation will be that the false messiah will be so convincing as to be able to fool the very elect if that were possible (Matthew 24:24). And those elect will be executed for not recanting their faith in Jesus and bowing to the false messiah.
Christianity to all but the elect will appear to be the stupidest thing in the world to all but the elect.
Never underestimate the blindness and deafness of mankind.
Christianity to all but the elect will appear to be the stupidest thing in the world to all but the elect.
Never underestimate the blindness and deafness of mankind.
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ShineyDays2
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I did include your reference! But criticizing over trivial matters is a pattern for you I would say.....I included ALL of your post so you won't have a hissy-fit again.
It is not required to insert an entire quote if some parts of it do not apply.
My reply INCLUDED everything you presented concerning the thought that your words indicated and the thought was not changed. I did include the question that the "thought" presented though because that is what it really means. Evidently, you did not consider the implications of your own statement?Question: When you say that "not every Jew will be saved" and then say that "after the tribulation* the whole nation of Israel will be saved" are you not actually saying that for the past 2,000 years plus the questionable 1,000 literal years of the
(which I don't agree on the 1,000 year tribulation and am just hypothesizing)
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Guojing
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That verse is frequently misapplied. So many people use this out of its context. They read Paul's mystery grace revelation into it when that was not the intention of what Jesus was saying above.
John wrote his gospel as a record of the 8 signs that Jesus performed in order for Jews to believe that he is their promised Messiah (John 20:30-31).
In that record, the signs are seen as works of God. There are at least two times the John account explains that.
John 10:
24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
John 14
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.
Once you understand what John was trying to do in his gospel, this verse you quoted is not saying we are trying to make it say, after we read Paul's revelation of the mystery.
Jesus was not saying to "believe in his death burial and resurrection and that is all you need to do to be saved." He was telling the Jews to believe in the signs, that he is their promised Messiah. The Jews, and Jesus were always under the Law of Moses pre-cruxifiction, and that Law must still be kept.
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
After Matthew 16:23, apparently Jesus forgave Peter... Jesus prays for His Disciples... and those who believe on Him through their word... meaning, those who keep Jesus' Commandments, Matthew 28:18-20... because they keep God's word:
John 17:6 I have manifested Thy name unto the men which Thou gavest Me out of the world: Thine they were, and Thou gavest them Me; and they have kept Thy word. 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine. 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word;
Nor did Jesus stop forgiving Peter:
John 21:16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, [son] of Jonas, lovest thou Me? He saith unto Him, Yea, Lord; Thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed My sheep.
Matthew 6:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
I was showing you that the Old Covenant makes room for these foreign but believing women and their children, by blessing them directly... with the seed of Abraham from the sons of Abraham. I would've thought that'd amount to good news, given this from the New Covenant:
Matthew 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;
Because frankly, if these women are in the pedigree of Jesus... This becomes literally true: Genesis 22:18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice. Genesis 17:13 and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. So that the seed and the circumcision of Abraham are the means and the transmission... from the Old Covenant into the New Covenant. The Covenant itself doesn't change:
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (ginomai = generated) Matthew 24:14-15 And this Gospel of the Kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. Revelation 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as He hath declared to His servants the prophets.
Esaias 55:1 Ye that thirst, go to the water, and all that have no money, go and buy; and eat and drink wine and fat without money or price. 2 Wherefore do ye value at the price of money, and give your labour for that which will not satisfy? hearken to Me, and ye shall eat that which is good, and your soul shall feast itself on good things. 3 Give heed with your ears, and follow My ways: hearken to Me, and your soul shall live in prosperity; and I will make with you an everlasting covenant, the sure mercies of David.
Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent Mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, [and] the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
Revelation 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in Heaven. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon the rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon the rock.
7:26 And every one that heareth these words of Mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
I couldn't resist this one!
Yes, calling himself by his Roman name was a wise thing to do as long as it was truthful. I too have done the same thing. Not by changing my name though.
There is one thing I have noticed of people who have lived all their lives in one area of a state or country and that is that they DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE MOVING FROM other states, or country because they don't want the "foreigners/newcomers" to start changing things that they have lived or believed like forever.
Example: I was born in the northeastern part of the USA when I was 3 years old. My parents moved the family to the southeastern part of the USA where my dad had been born and we lived there for 11 years. During those school years we moved a lot and was always teased about being a "Yankee". Then my parents moved back to the same state I had been born in. Having a southern accent by then I was "rebel" so I practiced how to speak as they spoke so the teasing would go away.
After I got married (in the north) we remained in the same state I was born in (Massachusetts). We knew people that lived on Cape Cod (a famous place for tourist). People from NY would come up and pay such high prices for home that the people who lived there all their lives could not afford to remain there due to the higher taxes. They did not like outsiders pushing them out of "their territory."
We then moved to NH. We heard constantly "we don't like people coming to NH and changing our ways of doing things.
We then bought a cabin on a lake in central Maine and eventually moved there where we were blatantly told the same old thing...."We have a lot of dirt roads and you people down in NH have a lot of highways. We like out dirt roads so get used to it because you will never be a Mainer no matter how long you live here!"
Then we inherited a home in southern California from a relative that was in a subdivision that had "covenants" . There was a half wall of beautiful plants that hung halfway over the wall. We were informed that if we did not trim them then we would be fined...."because we don't like those plants hanging over walls here so change it!"
Upon retirement age, we decided to move back to the south where I had spent my school years and where my dad was born. I had to let people know that my roots were in the south before they would accept me as being a "southerner after all." Go figure!
The moral of my story is that "people do not like change" any more than the people liked wandering in the wilderness after having survived the Egyptian plagues.
Paul used his name legitimately as a Roman citizen speaking to Gentiles. (Wikipedia) he also bore the Latin name of "Paul" (essentially a Latin approximation of Saul) – in biblical Greek: Παῦλος (Paulos), and in Latin: Paulus.[Acts 16:37][22:25–28] It was typical for the Jews of that time to have two names: one Hebrew, the other Latin or Greek.
Yup. People don't like their culture changed. And why would they, since religion is the base of culture. Europe is being forcibly multiculturalized even as we speak... by people who think nothing of raping and carving up women.
The Ebionites thought Paul was Greek, btw.
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
Paul's gospel to the gentiles says that, true; the Edomites and Cainites would be genetically opposed to God... so are the tribes who make war 24/7.
But peaceful tribes are not opposed to law and order, because they know the law is the only thing standing between them and this:
Psalms 2:1 Wherefore did the heathen rage, and the nations imagine vain things? 2 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together, against the Lord, and against His Christ; 3 saying, Let us break through their bonds, and cast away their yoke from us. 4 He that dwells in the heavens shall laugh them to scorn, and the Lord shall mock them. 5 Then shall He speak to them in His anger, and trouble them in His fury. 6 But I have been made King by Him on Sion His holy mountain, 7 declaring the ordinance of the Lord: the Lord said to Me, Thou art My Son, to-day have I begotten thee. 8 Ask of me, and I will give thee the heathen for Thine inheritance, and the ends of the earth for Thy possession. 9 Thou shalt rule them with a rod of iron; Thou shalt dash them in pieces as a potter's vessel.
The law is pretty much lying dead in the streets of Jerusalem. Revelation 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings. Matthew 10:18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for My sake, for a testimony against them and the nation. John 15:27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with Me from the beginning.
John 6:65 is strengthening the idea of people drawn to Jesus who had been drawn to the law and order of the Father beforehand. Since the Father gave the 12 to Jesus, and Jesus had also chosen them... they serve the purposes of God. Judas, to be the son of perdition; the Eleven to complete the Great Commission that Jesus started in Galilee with the same Gospel: Matthew 4:23 And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people... Matthew 24:14. John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on Me, believeth not on Me, but on Him that sent Me. The Gospel of the Kingdom is John 12:44-50... meaning, every word Jesus spoke to the circumcision is the Gospel of the Kingdom = the Father's Gospel.
The rest of John 3:16-18 says: John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
So obviously not all tribes are opposed to God.
The simple fact is this: God chose men who were already drawn to His law and order. This is what Jesus means when He says: Matthew 19:17 if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. ... Matthew 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go [and] sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come [and] follow Me. Matthew 11:28 Come unto Me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you, and learn of Me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. 30 For My yoke [is] easy, and My burden is light. The people who labor are those under the yoke of the Pharisees Matthew 23:4, and the additions to the law (Moses not God, the altar of stone, sacrifice rather than mercy, kings, put away their wives because whatever, etc.) which Jesus rolled back, Matthew 5-Matthew 7... replacing the sacrificial system with repentance and forgiveness between men. This is the sure mercies of David. Because without the law, there isn't a need for mercy... this means the Gospel of the Kingdom.
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Ligurian
Cro-Magnon
True... but why does Saul, a Benjaminite born in Tarsus, call himself a Judean?
Galatians 2:15 We [who are] Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
Ioudaia = feminine of Ioudaios, the Judaean land (i.e. Judaea), a region of Palestine:--Judaea.
Romans 3:29 [Is he] the God of the Jews only? [is he] not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
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ShineyDays2
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