20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Guojing · Sep 8, 2021

oliverab said:
what do you think the meaning of zachariah 8: 23 is

As i said, I interpret it literally here

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

the events in that verse and chapter will happen during the millennial reign of Christ

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
The whole Premillennial argument depends upon believing that Revelation 20 chronologically follows Revelation 19 in fulfilment, rather than commencing another parallel or camera-view

How can Revelation 20 be parallel camera view when it starts out with the martyred great tribulation saints' bodies being resurrected?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I think though that you hit the nail on the head that what it comes down to between pre-mil vs amil is whether Revelation 20 is a unbroken continuation of Revelation 19 as premil contends.

Or is Revelation 20 a parallel camera view as amil contends.

So first Satan has to be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

Next the martyred great tribulation saints are resurrected.

Next they rule with Christ for a thousand years.

Next at the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed from prison a for a short time to deceive the nations and to gather them for a big attack on Jerusalem.

God sends fire down from heaven and destroy the attackers. And Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet will already be.

______________________________________________________

I don't see how any of those things can be a parallel camera view - because the events in Revelation 20 don't parallel the same events previously viewed from a different camera.

Basically I think the Amil position on Revelation 20 is the events of Revelation 20 have be recorded as happened in other parts of the bible.

The problem for Amil's position is that there are no matches.

Marilyn C · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
This proves that your dumping of multiple unrelated OT passages is wrong.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints?
Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus mentioned on earth?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years later?

How can Premils reconcile their conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?

If Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 relate to the second coming (as Premils argue) then we have another contradiction: how can we have Egypt still existing in Zechariah 14:17-19 when Joel 3 clearly demonstrates that “Egypt shall be a desolation” (v19)? How does Premil magically raise this rebellious nation?

Why does God have to keep repeating Himself just for YOU!!!!!!

Guojing · Sep 8, 2021

jgr said:
Genesis 3
15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

I asked some time ago for you to tell us if Genesis 3:15 is literal or spiritual.

I'm still waiting.

Its a prophecy of the virgin birth of Christ. That is literal to me.

I thought that was commonsensical, but you may have your own interpretation of what that verse meant.

Douggg · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints?
Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus mentioned on earth?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years later?

You are asking about things that were not specifically revealed until they were revealed in Revelation when Jesus opened the book - and John saw and heard those things presented to him.

Jesus is on earth in Zechariah 14, because he stands on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it apart.

Ezekiel 39:21 also indicates Jesus will be here on earth at that time, which it says he sets His glory among the heathen.

In Psalms 2, God sets Jesus upon His Holy hill of Zion.

sovereigngrace said:
How can Premils reconcile their conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?

Those verses are not in conflict. When Jesus returns to this earth, King over all the earth, in Zechariah 14:9, there will be universal knowledge of the One True God.

So there will not be any strangers - to the knowledge of the One True God - entering Jerusalem having other gods, and religions, bringing their idols and false religions with them.

Jerusalem will be the camp of the saints, a place where only the saved will occupy.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
The Apostle Paul says, `each in his own order.` By his judicious use of sequential Greek words he delineates three distinct and separate stages, with obvious gaps between each. (1 Cor. 15: 20 - 26)

Christos Aparche - Christ firstfruits
Eipeita Parousia - Afterward at His appearing
Eipa Telos - Then the end.

The `comes the end` indicates a setting out for a goal. And this is over time.

`For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. (all rule and authority and power) The last enemy that will be destroyed is death.` (1 Cor. 15: 25 & 26)

(BTW I am not into reading all your cut and paste notes.)

You are sidestepping every point I presented that forbids Premil. The 1 passage you did address proves Christ's return is the end!

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Why does God have to keep repeating Himself just for YOU!!!!!!

I will take your avoidance as an admission you recognize this rebuts Premil.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
Of course I believe that Jesus` sacrifice is the ONLY sacrifice for sin. Sacrifices before and after make no difference to Christ`s sacrifice.

So why aren`t you in heaven if Christ made the price? You seem to think that there is no outworking of Christ`s salvation. Also you think everyone before the cross had access to Christ`s divine nature which is not possible because Christ had not lived and died and risen to glory to send His Holy Spirit to give us His divine nature. No one else had that opportunity.

We will have bodies like Christ. No one else had that opportunity. I think you demean Christ`s work and what He is accomplishing for His Body to rule and reign with Him in the HIGHEST.

Why then are you promoting rival sin offerings in your so-called future millennium? Amils find the Premil rejection of Christ's sacrifice as the final sacrifice for sin troubling. After all, when Jesus cried it is finished, the old covenant sacrifice system was finished. This was reinforced by the ripping of the temple curtain in two. Christ was the final sacrifice for sin.

Hebrews 7:27 says of Christ and His final atonement, “Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.”

Hebrews 9:28 explains that "Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many.”

Hebrews 10:10 says, “we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.”

Hebrews 10:12 says, “this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God.”

Hebrews 10:14 says, “For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.”

There it is! Clear and irrefutable! This is the sacrifice to end all sacrifices forever!!! "Forever" actually means "forever."

Romans 6:10 says, “he died unto sin once.”

1 Peter 3:18 says, “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit.”

Hebrews 9:12 explains, “by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.”

Christ put and end of sin by this final transaction for sin, thus making an end of sin forever for those who would believe. There will never again be a sacrifice for sin. Christ’s atonement satisfied heaven’s holy demands and ensured that there would never again be another sacrifice/offering for sin carrying God’s blessing.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
The dead in Christ are ASLEEP!!!!

`For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who SLEEP in Jesus.` (1 Thess. 4: 14)

Do you believe in soul sleep?

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
You are asking about things that were not specifically revealed until they were revealed in Revelation when Jesus opened the book - and John saw and heard those things presented to him.

Jesus is on earth in Zechariah 14, because he stands on the Mt. of Olives, splitting it apart.

Ezekiel 39:21 also indicates Jesus will be here on earth at that time, which it says he sets His glory among the heathen.

In Psalms 2, God sets Jesus upon His Holy hill of Zion.

Those verses are not in conflict. When Jesus returns to this earth, King over all the earth, in Zechariah 14:9, there will be universal knowledge of the One True God.

So there will not be any strangers - to the knowledge of the One True God - entering Jerusalem having other gods, and religions, bringing their idols and false religions with them.

Jerusalem will be the camp of the saints, a place where only the saved will occupy.

Please answer the questions instead of stepping around them.

Where in Zechariah 14 is a thousand years mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the new earth mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the glorified saints mentioned?
Where in Zechariah 14 is Jesus shown to be on earth?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the binding of Satan?
Where in Zechariah 14 are the 2 resurrections/judgments?
Where in Zechariah 14 is the release of Satan and an unparalleled global uprising 1,000 years after the second coming?

Could any Premil please do a detailed comparison between Zechariah 14 and Revelation 20 (the two main often-presented Premil proof texts)?

Where does Zechariah 14 make the remotest allusion to any of the detail described at the end of Revelation 20 and therefore the millennium, including the gathering of Gog and Magog to fight the camp of the saints, the destruction of the wicked in total, the destruction of the old earth and heavens and the replacement with the new, the resurrection of the wicked and “Great White Throne Judgement of sinners” 1,000 years after the judgement of the righteous?

Surely the Jerusalem Premils portray in their alleged future millennium is altogether different to the one depicted in Zechariah 14:2 that is being attacked, “the houses rifled,” and “the women ravished”?

How can women in the millennium be "ravished" (or raped) when no one in Jerusalem is even mortal anymore (Zechariah 14:2)?

Zechariah 14:2-3, tells us that the result of the attack of the nations against Jerusalem is that “half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.” Surely this contradicts the whole Premillennial portrayal of Jerusalem during the millennium? This surely runs contrary to the perfect pristine peaceful Jerusalem Premils like to present in their literature, where Israel is exalted to a racially privileged position for 1,000 years?

How then can Jerusalem prosper when half of its population are dead and the other half are prisoners restrained by chains? I thought this was a glorious time for the city?

How can Premils reconcile their conflicting “proof-texts” that in one breath teach that “every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles" (Zechariah 14:16-17) and “the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD” (Isaiah 56:6-7) yet in the next breath at the exact same time because Jerusalem is a "holy" place, a prohibition is placed on all Gentiles that "there shall no strangers pass through her any more" (Joel 3:17) and “No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel” (Ezekiel 44:9)?

If Zechariah 14 and Joel 3 relate to the second coming (as Premils argue) then we have another contradiction: how can we have Egypt still existing in Zechariah 14:17-19 when Joel 3 clearly demonstrates that “Egypt shall be a desolation” (v19)? How does Premil magically raise this rebellious nation?

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You have been posting on this thread for multiple months and you still do not know that there are 20 major reasons in the Op to reject the Premillennial doctrine. Hmmmm.

You only have 3 points with Scripture. According to your own judgment, if a point is not based in Scripture it is just opinion.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

jgr said:
Yes, futurites abhor history.

Why would it? History corroborates it.

So prophecy needs an overhaul? Do you have any suggestions?

jgr · Sep 8, 2021

Guojing said:
Its a prophecy of the virgin birth of Christ. That is literal to me.

I thought that was commonsensical, but you may have your own interpretation of what that verse meant.

If it's a literal prophecy of the literal virgin birth of Christ, then the literal words "virgin, birth, Christ" must literally appear within, or in close proximity to, the text.

They are nowhere to be seen.

That literal interpretation fails.

Do you want to suggest a different one?

jgr · Sep 8, 2021

Timtofly said:
So prophecy needs an overhaul? Do you have any suggestions?

Why does it need an overhaul if history corroborates it?

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

Marilyn C said:
The millennium is NOT Edenic. It is a time of sinful man being under the rule of God through the nation of Israel as promised. After all the cities of the nations fell in the great earthquake (Rev. 16: 19) civilization as we know it will be no more. It will be an agrarian society.

`They shall beat their swords into ploughshares, and their spears into pruning hook; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.` (Micah 4: 3)

So it is not a garden world, but it will be agrarian? Don't agrarians have gardens?

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
How can Revelation 20 be parallel camera view when it starts out with the martyred great tribulation saints' bodies being resurrected?

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

I think though that you hit the nail on the head that what it comes down to between pre-mil vs amil is whether Revelation 20 is a unbroken continuation of Revelation 19 as premil contends.

Or is Revelation 20 a parallel camera view as amil contends.

So first Satan has to be bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

Christ’s first advent involved Him coming to overcome every enemy of man. Christ conquered sin, death, Hades and Satan when He came. They are all defeated enemies that have been given a short season to survive during this intra-Advent. They will all finally be eliminated when Jesus comes again to introduce eternal righteousness. Because the kingdom of God is a unitary whole, the fate of all are tied together, Christ being the representative head. Christ's victory now belongs to the elect of God. That is why they have been given power over Satan and his demons. They have been given authority to invade his dark kingdom since the cross with the light of the truth.

The fate of the Satan, demons, the beast (antichrist spirit or the mystery of iniquity) and the wicked are all tied together. Because the kingdom of darkness is a unitary whole, the fate of all are tied together, Satan being the representative head. When Satan was defeated, the kingdom of darkness was defeated. When Satan was banished to the pit, so also was the beast. When Satan is released before the second coming so also is the beast. The 3 1/2 years (whether literal or symbolic) closely correlate with Satan's little season.

Revelation 20 actually takes us back to the first resurrection - where Jesus conquered, sin, death, Hades and Satan. It shows the spiritual binding of Satan in order to enlighten the Gentiles. When Christ bound Satan’s kingdom through His life, death and resurrection then the kingdom of darkness was bound. 2 Peter 2:4, Jude v 6, Revelation 9 and Revelation 20 all prove the whole demonic realm is currently restrained from stopping the free-flow of the Gospel. The bruising of the head of the beast (Revelation 13:3, 13:12 and 13:14) correlates with the bruising of the head of Satan 2,000 years ago through the earthly ministry of Christ (Genesis 3:15). They correspond with the spiritual binding imprisoning of Satan during the millennial period. These are figurative metaphors describing the impairment of the kingdom of darkness 2000 years ago.

Matthew 12:22-29, Mark 3:11, 23-27, Luke 10:18-19, Luke 11:20-22, John 12:31-33 Colossians 2:13-15, Hebrews 2:14-15, I John 3:8, Revelation 9:1-11, Revelation 12:7-9 and Revelation 20:2 prove Satan was cast out, bound, defeated, incapacitated, divested of power, disarmed, brought to naught, undone, stripped and spiritually imprisoned through Christ's sinless life, atoning death and triumphant resurrection. Colossians 2:15 tells us: “having spoiled (or divested or disarmed) principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.” Satan has not been rendered immobile or inoperative but is limited in his power, kingship and influence by being defeated on the cross. He is like a dog on a chain. He is shackled.

Next the martyred great tribulation saints are resurrected.

Next they rule with Christ for a thousand years.

Firstly, the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet's activity are not simply restricted to 42 months before Christ's Coming.

Secondly, the beast represents the ongoing reign of Satan on the earth throughout time through the world secular anti-Christ system. It is not an end-time invention as Futurist's imagine.

Thirdly, Revelation is not chronological. It is a number of recaps describing the same intra-Advent period. The end of the millennium and Satan's "little season" corresponds with the end time persecution spoke elsewhere in Revelation and in other Scripture. The millennium does not follow Revelation 17-19 in time, but rather parallels it. Revelation 20 is the last of 7 recapitulations.

Fourthly, martyrdom was/is never limited to 42 months at the end. Every informed Bible student knows that. Martyrdom has occurred since the stoning of Stephen. Millions have been butchered by the beast system for their faith in the OT and NT, in the early Church, under the jackboot of Romanism, and right up until today. To limit martyrdom to 42 months at the end exposes your theological bias, your ignorance of history and your lack of objectivity.

Next at the end of the thousand years, Satan is loosed from prison a for a short time to deceive the nations and to gather them for a big attack on Jerusalem.

God sends fire down from heaven and destroy the attackers. And Satan is cast into the lake of fire where the beast and false prophet will already be.

Just before the second coming, Satan gets a little season to wreak havoc on the Church. When Satan is released before the second coming for a little season then so is the beast, and Satan's minions. We see the devils in Revelation 9:2-3, the beast in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-12, Revelation 11:7 and Revelation 17:8, and Satan in Revelation 9:10-11 and Revelation 20:3 all being released before the second coming for a little season. Then comes the end! But Christ comes in majestic and eternal glory to overthrow the kingdom of darkness forever. The demonic realm is all killed when Satan is destroyed at the climactic second coming (Isaiah 26:19-27:1, 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Revelation 19:20, 20:9-10).

I don't see how any of those things can be a parallel camera view - because the events in Revelation 20 don't parallel the same events previously viewed from a different camera.

Basically I think the Amil position on Revelation 20 is the events of Revelation 20 have be recorded as happened in other parts of the bible.

The problem for Amil's position is that there are no matches.

This is your own bias personal opinion (which you are entitled to) but doesn't prove anything or negate the teaching of the inspired text.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

Douggg said:
It will not be a perfect world though as sin will still be present during that time. Which Jesus will rule the nations with a rod of iron, to keep it in check.

There will also be death during the millennium, although lifespans will be longer.

How can you claim this when this is the time for:

"putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place."

This is not Paradise coming down from heaven. This is the time, life on earth will be equal to that in heaven. God's Will will be lived out on earth. No sin, or sin nature, so no death and decay. No Satan, so no deception, and reasoning against God's Will.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You totally sidestepped my enquiry.

Because amil is built upon a misreading of one sole passage in the whole of Scripture, an interpretation that enjoys zero corroboration anywhere else in the Bible. What is more, amil is located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That should be enough to set off the warning bells. We should therefore employ other clear, explicit and repeated Scripture to interpret amil and locate amil.
Everywhere else in the Bible shows us that the coming of the Lord is the end of amil. It is the end of corruption, mortal man and the end of Adam's punishment.
The Bible only recognizes a 2-age model, that of this evil age and the perfect 1000 year Millennium to come. Amil invents a 3rd age through their faulty understanding of this lone chapter (the current church age as only a symbolic age).
Revelation 20 perfectly corroborates the Pre-mill position and plainly relates it to Christ on earth.

sovereigngrace · Sep 8, 2021

Timtofly said:
Because amil is built upon a misreading of one sole passage in the whole of Scripture, an interpretation that enjoys zero corroboration anywhere else in the Bible. What is more, amil is located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That should be enough to set off the warning bells. We should therefore employ other clear, explicit and repeated Scripture to interpret amil and locate amil.

Everywhere else in the Bible shows us that the coming of the Lord is the end of amil. It is the end of corruption, mortal man and the end of Adam's punishment.

The Bible only recognizes a 2-age model, that of this evil age and the perfect 1000 year Millennium to come. Amil invents a 3rd age through their faulty understanding of this lone chapter (the current church age as only a symbolic age).

Revelation 20 perfectly corroborates the Pre-mill position and plainly relates it to Christ on earth.

When you want to be serious we can re-engage.

Timtofly · Sep 8, 2021

sovereigngrace said:
You totally sidestepped my enquiry.

Because your belief is built upon a misreading of one sole passage in the whole of Scripture, an interpretation that enjoys zero corroboration anywhere else in the Bible. What is more, it is located in the most figurative and obscure book in the Bible. That should be enough to set off the warning bells. We should therefore employ other clear, explicit and repeated Scripture to interpret it and locate it.

Everywhere else in the Bible shows us that the coming of the Lord is the end. It is the end of incorruption, mortal man and the end of time.

The Bible only recognizes a 2-age model, that of this evil age and the perfect age to come. Premil invents a 3rd age through their faulty understanding of this lone chapter.

Revelation 20 perfectly corroborates the Amil opposition and plainly relates it to the here-and-now.

The end of incorruption? You may want to look up that definition.

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

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