An example of how the whole law cannot be practiced today (discussion)

SabbathBlessings

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So, why did Ellen White say that those who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath are not saved?
I would be more concerned about what the Bible says 1 John 3:4, Romans 3:20, Romans 7:7. Breaking any of God's commandments including the 4th commandment is considered a sin. Does the bible teach that sinners who don't repent from their sins will be saved? True repentance means turning from our sins and with the Holy Spirit we can have victory over sin.
 
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BobRyan

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Col 2 does not say "God's Law was nailed to the cross" it says "our certificate of DEBT was nailed to the cross". NASB

13 And when you were dead in your wrongdoings and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our wrongdoings, 14 having canceled the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. NASB

That's an interesting new translation, but I'm not seeing that in the strongs words. I'm not sure if quoting the ESL bible is really a good scholarly resource.


That is NASB and is one of the most accurate translations known.
 
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BobRyan

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To bring things back on topic, this is about why the death penalty verses are not expounded as mandatory, when the law precepts in posts such as most of the above are expounded as mandatory.

As already noted - and as the Gospel account confirms - even before the cross the Jews themselves admit that they were no a theocracy and could not apply death penalty as was specified in the O.T.

This is so incredibly clear that well known Sunday groups affiliated with the "Westminster Confession of Faith" (section 19) and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 freely admit that when the theocracy ceases to function so also the civil laws under that theocracy are no longer enforceable. This is not a "sabbath keeper only" POV - it is a detail affirmed by both sides of the Sabbath subject.

You are of course free to differ with everyone on this - you have free will.
 
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BobRyan

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So, why did Ellen White say that those who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath are not saved?

1. She never said that. In fact she said that the majority of saved saints are in non-Sabbath keeping denominations.

2. How does this relate to this thread (or do you think that SDAs are the only people that keep Sabbath?)
 
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Freth

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So, why did Ellen White say that those who do not keep the Saturday Sabbath are not saved?

Ellen addressed all manner of sin in her writings, not just the Sabbath.

If you know the law of God, but do not obey it, then the wages of sin is death. This goes for any commandment, not just the Sabbath.

Why then is special significance given to the Sabbath?
  1. Whether you receive the mark of the beast or the Seal of God is a worship issue (as per the prophecy of Revelation).
  2. The Sabbath is God's day of worship (Isaiah 66:23, Exodus 31:13-14).
  3. The changing of God's times and laws was prophesied to occur by Daniel (Daniel 7:25). This prophecy was fulfilled in the instituting of Sunday as a day of worship, et al.
The significance of God's day of worship can be found in the creation account, long before there was such a thing as Jew or Israel. God set aside a day and sanctified it as a holy day for man long before any faction existed. Just as creation itself was quite deliberate and forthright for our existence, the Sabbath day was deliberate and forthright for our relationship with God.

There is a parallel that can be drawn in the choice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God specified that all trees were good to eat—except one—which He commanded us not to eat of. In this command, God set forth a choice: obey or disobey. In the law of God, we are given a choice. Do we obey God or do we obey man (ultimately Satan)? God's law isn't relative to our human desire or our human tradition, it's absolute to God's will for us.

The Sabbath has been made the main issue by the institutionalization of the tradition of men. It could have just as easily been another commandment, but Satan isn't stupid. He went big, attacking the most important law of all, the worship law that God set forth at creation and commanded us to remember.

Sin is sin. However, the end time events that are prophesied do center around worship. The Sabbath is clearly God's worship day. The tribulation we are to go through is about who we worship and who we obey, bringing us full circle to the garden of Eden; the choice to obey or disobey God. Do we worship the beast and his image, or do we worship God as He specified from the very beginning, and then wrote in stone twice by His own hand?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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If you got a parking ticked with a $100 fine, but a friend paid it in your place, then would the law still require you to pay the fine?
The point is, this verse does not say that. However, this is illustrated in another passage. When Jesus said "it is finished" this was used on roman tax receipts when a bill was "paid in full"

I am not denying that Jesus paid the debt, I'm deny that this particular passage talks about that.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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even before the cross the Jews themselves admit that they were no a theocracy and could not apply death penalty as was specified in the O.T.
So the point missed here is, if it's God's law, then the civil authorities do not matter.

However, since civil law can trump it, it's not all that important. Now is it?

Onward to what Jesus taught as important.
 
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Presbyterian Continuist

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Ellen addressed all manner of sin in her writings, not just the Sabbath.

If you know the law of God, but do not obey it, then the wages of sin is death. This goes for any commandment, not just the Sabbath.

Why then is special significance given to the Sabbath?
  1. Whether you receive the mark of the beast or the Seal of God is a worship issue (as per the prophecy of Revelation).
  2. The Sabbath is God's day of worship (Isaiah 66:23, Exodus 31:13-14).
  3. The changing of God's times and laws was prophesied to occur by Daniel (Daniel 7:25). This prophecy was fulfilled in the instituting of Sunday as a day of worship, et al.
The significance of God's day of worship can be found in the creation account, long before there was such a thing as Jew or Israel. God set aside a day and sanctified it as a holy day for man long before any faction existed. Just as creation itself was quite deliberate and forthright for our existence, the Sabbath day was deliberate and forthright for our relationship with God.

There is a parallel that can be drawn in the choice of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God specified that all trees were good to eat—except one—which He commanded us not to eat of. In this command, God set forth a choice: obey or disobey. In the law of God, we are given a choice. Do we obey God or do we obey man (ultimately Satan)? God's law isn't relative to our human desire or our human tradition, it's absolute to God's will for us.

The Sabbath has been made the main issue by the institutionalization of the tradition of men. It could have just as easily been another commandment, but Satan isn't stupid. He went big, attacking the most important law of all, the worship law that God set forth at creation and commanded us to remember.

Sin is sin. However, the end time events that are prophesied do center around worship. The Sabbath is clearly God's worship day. The tribulation we are to go through is about who we worship and who we obey, bringing us full circle to the garden of Eden; the choice to obey or disobey God. Do we worship the beast and his image, or do we worship God as He specified from the very beginning, and then wrote in stone twice by His own hand?
The Gentile churches never observed the Saturday Sabbath. They worshiped on Sunday right from the start. Paul and his ministry team went into the Synagogues on Saturdays to preach the Gospel to the Jews.
 
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BobRyan

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So the point missed here is, if it's God's law, then the civil authorities do not matter.

That is not what the Gospels say -- this point you are on is not moral law it is civil law given specifically to a theocracy - as its directive my its king.

Your statement amounts to "yes but context does not matter".

As I point out this is not the sort of logic that the Bible scholars use - not even on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic. They all admit that civil laws of a government depend on that government being in existence and the theocratic earthly government stopped exists as even Christ pointed out - when questioned on this point.
 
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Studyman

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My question however, is when someone is preaching that Christians are obligated to observe the sabbath day (for example), they do not also preach that we must stone with stones anyone who doesn't. The imperative to stone people is part of the commandment, but it is being ignored, so what does this mean?

It is important to consider "Every Word" of Scripture when studying a certain aspect of it, as Jesus instructed. For instance, "The Law is Spiritual". And it was written specifically "for our admonition" as Paul writes, and "for our sake's no doubt".

I would argue that we have all been "Stoned with Stones" by the Congregation of the Lord. That we were all " dead in trespasses and sins" because the wages of sin is death.

Paul said; "I was alive once, and the Law came and I died". How did the Law come? Was it not from Moses, Abraham, Joshua, Isaiah, and the Congregation of the Lord?

And what if we choose not,, as Paul preaches to both Jew and Gentile, To "repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance"?

Shall we not remain dead in our sins?

So if, in the Oracles of God, a man that murders another is stoned to death by the congregation of the Lord, then would it not be wise to be sure we don't murder another? Surely you would agree. And yet, when the Same God, from the Same Law, says not to dishonor His Holy Sabbath, or be stoned to death by the congregation of the Lord, modern religious men, just as those in times of old, don't seem to respect God in this Commandment.

Personally I distance myself from the religions of this world, for this and many other reasons. As such, I find no reason to disrespect any of God's instructions. And am perfectly happy to abide my His "Good works" that HE before ordained that I should walk in them, including His Holy Sabbath.

I am thankful that we have a New High Priest, which is not after the Order of Aaron, and the sacrificial "works of the Law" this priesthood presided over for forgiveness. I don't see the big deal with walking in the "Way of the Lord" that Jesus walked in.

Why would we even want to walk any other path?
 
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BobRyan

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However, since civil law can trump it, it's not all that important. Now is it?

Not in the case of civil laws given specifically under a theocratic government when that theocracy no longer exists. That is pretty obvious.

But if you think "do not take God's name in vain" is a commandment that gets deleted as soon as a theocracy for civil penalties does not exist - then you are not paying attention to 1 John 3:4 telling us that even in the NT "sin IS still transgression of the LAW" of God -

What even the Sunday groups call the "moral Law of God" that define "What sin is".

Having "' honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2
 
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BobRyan

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The Gentile churches never observed the Saturday Sabbath. They worshiped on Sunday right from the start. .

I like the way you say that without any quotes around it since no such statement can be found in scripture.

It is helpful in that regard.
 
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Clare73

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The significance of God's day of worship can be found in the creation account,
And it's fulfillment, like the fulfillment of the promise of Genesis 3:15, is Jesus Christ.

Like the New Covenant and all things salvific, we must take our understanding of the incomplete revelation of the OT in the light of the full revelation of the NT.

In Hebrews 3:7-4:13, the NT reminds the Hebrew professing Christians that God promised Israel his own full-time Sabbath rest from her enemies in Canaan (Exodus 33:14), and she refused to go in (Numbers 14).
And Hebrews warns about failing to go into God's full-time Sabbath rest by failing to believe in Jesus Christ, who is God's own full-time Sabbath rest for us now, in our resting from our own works to save us and resting in Jesus' finished work which saved us, as God rested in his own finished work at creation (Hebrews 3:7-4:13).

We observe the Sabbath in the NT by resting full-time in Jesus' finished work, not in resting just one day in the week.

Hebrews 10:25 - Christians are not to forsake assembling together for the Lord's Supper (Acts 2:42).
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Why would we even want to walk any other path?
Basically my point, if a recurring part of the law becomes obsolete, it means the other parts that a number passages say are obsolete are also now obsolete.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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That is not what the Gospels say -- this point you are on is not moral law it is civil law given specifically to a theocracy - as its directive my its king.

Your statement amounts to "yes but context does not matter".

As I point out this is not the sort of logic that the Bible scholars use - not even on BOTH sides of the Sabbath topic. They all admit that civil laws of a government depend on that government being in existence and the theocratic earthly government stopped exists as even Christ pointed out - when questioned on this point.

Not in the case of civil laws given specifically under a theocratic government when that theocracy no longer exists. That is pretty obvious.

But if you think "do not take God's name in vain" is a commandment that gets deleted as soon as a theocracy for civil penalties does not exist - then you are not paying attention to 1 John 3:4 telling us that even in the NT "sin IS still transgression of the LAW" of God -

What even the Sunday groups call the "moral Law of God" that define "What sin is".

Having "' honor your father and mother' as the first commandment with a promise" Eph 6:2

I tend to look at the commandments as promises instead of rules to follow. Since those being born again are given the divine nature to participate in, it's apt.

Sin is deeper than a mere list of offenses. The list of offenses focus leaves people open for attack in spiritual warfare so I tend to take exception to it. In basis, if it causes harm, it is sin. Therefore, many bible interpretations are sinful due to the harm they cause.
 
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BobRyan

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I tend to look at the commandments as promises instead of rules to follow.

You have free will of course and can choose that view of it.

To some of us it looks like Eve did not view the command not to eat of the tree of knowledge as an outright command... more of a suggestion.

In any case John says "sin IS transgression of the Law' 1 John 3:4 and Paul says the Law defines what sin is - in Rom 3:19-20

Sin is deeper than a mere list of offenses. The list of offenses

Jesus said "if you want eternal life - keep the commandments" in Matt 19. He is asked "Which ones" and then Jesus... gives a list.

in Romans 13 - Paul gives pretty much the same list as it relates to the Mosaic command "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18

"God's Word" is living and active and sharper than a two-edged sword Heb 4 - but our own "refactoring of it" is not nearly that powerful.

I agree that there is an infinite depth to the Word of God - so I am not trying to limit God - yet going beyond that Word is how the Jews got into trouble as Christ points out in Mark 7:6-13
 
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Gregory Thompson

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in Romans 13 - Paul gives pretty much the same list as it relates to the Mosaic command "Love your neighbor as yourself" Lev 19:18
Same passage that states that love does not harm your neighbor, this is one of the summaries of the law.

There's a lot of work to do, so wasting less time memorizing concepts, and keeping it simple i.e. treat people right is part of the reason for these summaries.

If a summary of the law is presented in scripture, it would be a shame if we didn't apply it in reality.
 
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Studyman

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Basically my point, if a recurring part of the law becomes obsolete, it means the other parts that a number passages say are obsolete are also now obsolete.

What part of the Law became obsolete? According to Scriptures, it was the Priesthood that changed, and the "works of the Law" of forgiveness through this Priesthood became obsolete.

Not the Definition of Sin which required the forgiveness in the first place.
 
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Freth

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The Will of the Father

Do the will of the father; i.e. keep His commandments.

Matthew 7:21-23 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​


The Revelation of Jesus

Revelation, which is the revelation of Jesus, was given Him directly from God the Father and passed on to John the Revelator.

Seven times in Revelation 2 and Revelation 3, God, through Jesus, through John, calls for the churches to hear Him:

He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.​

And to the church of Laodicea, the last church age before the second coming:

Revelation 3:14-21

And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.​

This is the same message Jesus gave during His ministry (Matthew 7:21-23; above) The last church age has some serious issues. God thought it important to make the statement, I think we need to take it seriously.


The Final Warning

In Revelation 22:12-16, Jesus points again to God the Father.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.​

I [Jesus] am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

Blessed are they that do his [God the Father] commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.​

For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. [sinners]​

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
God, through Jesus, through John, is telling us to come to obedience.

Perfection: What is Love?
(No, not Haddaway.)

Commandment keeping <-> Love

1 John 5:2-3 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.​

Can we be perfect? Yes. His commandments are not grievous.

1 John 4:12 ...If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Conclusions

Bullet points from this post and my previous:
  • There was no "new" law of love, Jesus was quoting Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 6:4-5, Leviticus 19:18). Jesus pointed to the commandments of the Father. The law and the prophets hang on love.
  • It was made clear that the law was not done away with, but that love and the law are intertwined and cannot be separated.
  • God the Father, through Jesus, through John, warned of lukewarm Christianity, of sin creeping into the church. Sin is transgression of the law.
  • Prophecy states that the church falls away into apostasy. The tradition of men is put before the word of God, in place of the very commandments He gave.
  • God sanctified the seventh day at creation and then wrote a commandment in stone twice with His own hand, telling us to remember it and keep it holy. He wrote nine other commandments along with it. All should be kept.
  • The law issue will come to a head and a choice must be made by each of us. Follow man or follow God. Observe the traditions of men or the law of God. The wheat will be separated from the chaff.
The whole law can be practiced today.

If the saints keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus (Revelation 14:12, Revelation 12:17), then wouldn't you want to be a saint? If the law cannot be wholly kept, then how is it that those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus are considered saints?

It stands to reason, then, that obedience is the keeping of all of the commandments of God and the faith (and testimony) of Jesus, which includes the spirit of prophecy that points to the very apostasy that has manifested itself in the churches, up to and including present-day.

Obey God, not men.

It doesn't matter what I say, or anyone else says. What matters is what scripture says.
 
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