Question around someone converting to orthodoxy...

rhomphaeam · Jul 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
he should when other Western Christians erroneously speak of Orthodoxy as if they know what they are talking about.

Im a Jew. But you win priest. May the Lord indeed have mercy.

ArmyMatt · Jul 31, 2021

rhomphaeam said:
Im a Jew. But you win priest. May the Lord indeed have mercy.

indeed, Lord have mercy

BNR32FAN · Jul 31, 2021

Malleeboy said:
I know this is the debate section, but I wasn't sure how my post would be responded to elsewhere (Cause it is bring typed with considerable anguish, I apologize it is a rant in pain)
I have an 18 year old son, who has become interested in Orthodoxy.
(He has promised to work through scripture and the early church documents with me)
My family are evangelical protestants.

Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

I get the need from your perspective to defend truth, however it is said of God "that your kindness leads to repentance".

All the Orthodox that I have meant in person are so nominal and uncommitted to being a disciple of Jesus, it is largely just a cultural things they do once or twice a year. So my son could pray with utterly luke warm, apathetic orthodox people but has to effectively spiritual shun his own family.

This seems on par with the JW's and the Plymouth Exclusive Brethren.

I believe the separation of his body (the church) from each other causes great sorrow for Jesus, and I for one would wish that we could live out the ones of Ephesian 4. But if my son joins Orthodoxy, I will get some idea of what being a "man of sorrows" means, cause at the moment I cannot feel that a day would pass but the sorrow of the separation would not hurt.

Now I get you will say it is for vital truths, and of course despite that I ascribe to both Nicaea/Chalcedon, baptism as a saving sacrament, even the theotokos, unless I choose to "enthnicize" to your ethnically drenched churches, the separation with my son must but be maintained. Given your churches cut communion over if Estonia could have its own church, and now over if Ukraine having its own church, to rank outsider I'm just not that it is anything to do with the love of Jesus.

I apologize if this is an uncharitable rant, we all need the mercy and love of God. I'm just not sure tearing families apart is the best way to live Jesus message out to the world but these are your churches. I can only hope that the LORD hastens his return to minimize the pain we cause another.

You might try posting this in the second called The Ancient Way. That’s the EOC forum here on CF. I’m not familiar with these issues you’ve described here but I’m not an EOC member either. To my knowledge I don’t think these are official EOC teachings.

BNR32FAN · Jul 31, 2021

ArmyMatt said:
to your questions:

correct, he cannot take communion outside of Orthodoxy.
correct, he can't deny going to the Liturgy (although, exceptions can be made for special occasions. this is something for him to work out with his priest).
he shouldn't participate in the prayers, but he still can be with you as you pray. but again, this is something between him and his priest.

Lord have mercy.

Ok I stand corrected

KisKatte · Aug 15, 2021

Although you have already an answer from an orthodox priest I slightly have to disagree. If your son becomes orthodox he will establish his OWN relationship with God. And God will not forbid him to pray with you together. It is then in the hands of your son to follow the commandments of the priest or to succeed in his own relationship with God. Orthodox Church has good quality, while evangelical christians attack me for my belief. So do not think bad generally of any church. I also do not know much priests who forbid ANY private prayer. So I am sorry to disagree. To my defense dear orthodox priests on this forum I have to say I always struggle with authority. I am a person who is an autist. And according to a personality test I belong to only 4% of people on this earth who never ever accepts any authority over oneself. Concering communion this is difficult. Your son simply could believe that would be not a true communion. But personal prayers to God are never forbidden. So He can pray with you. Visiting your church is also not a big sin or something like that. I also visit catholic and evangelical churches during service and if I like the prayers I pray together. But I look at the prayers if I would like to say this to God.

Many people feel an unknown attraction towards orthodoxy and only later in their lifes understand why they landed in the orthodox church. Do not be afraid it is God's purpose maybe for him. Our Metropolit in Germany is also from a protestant family. And became orthodox. He often scolds me being a protestant but he has heart and no of the orthodox people will hurt you willingly.

My justification to visit catholic churches is that their sacraments are also true. And the wonder God send us in these days to unite the churches. You can watch this wonder on youtube: if you type in: miracle of damascus part 10. Watch from minute 3:45 and part 11 and 12. This woman gets holy oil from face and hands and from the icon in her house. She has an assignment from God to unite the christians in one church. I know this wonder is true from God. So I do not care if some priest is worried.

KisKatte · Aug 15, 2021

rhomphaeam said:
What I said regarding Eastern Orthodoxy was chiefly stated in present tense. The only historical precept in past tense was stated about divisions within the Eastern Churches that gave Islam its upper hand. I am an Islamic Scholar and I have involvement with brethren in the East including the Levant and so I know how they perceive their own history. Regardless as to denominational distinctions in the East - which even at the time of Muhammed exited - both in the Arabian Peninsula and Syria and the Levant more broadly - those kind of details were only meaningful when set into present tense. What I said was that it isn't possible to convert to Eastern Orthodoxy in the West - but that it could only be held true in the East. What I could have stated was that when a son of a father turns to Eastern Orthodoxy in the West and he is already in a true faith into Christ then any such supposed conversion cannot be a conversion at all because a man can only convert to Christ.

I also recognise that I stated that many of the Churches in the East [and I cited Russian, Greek and Syriac] had by now a greater measure of the Holy Spirit in their midst - and that was also present tense yet was predicated on a historical claim to divisions and the ravages of Islam.

I know what I said and what any spirit filled believer could discern from what was hidden. The only wilful element I made was that I cited the wrong date for the death of Muhammed. I simply wanted to see if anyone would correct me. Apparently not!

I am sorry I have to disagree. I am not good in citating any sources because my memory is not good. During soviet union the patriarch knew that there would be an underground church and permitted it. So part of the church flew to the west during revolution. There was never ever a real separation. They united after having checked if the western church is still a true church. Now the church is united again and all possible failures are approved. And there were no failures because it was allowed by the Patriarch.

Secondly I have a question to you before you claim to be a true christian who is able to judge about other denominations. As a former muslim(maybe?) how did you deal with Jesus? Do you already accept Jesus as God or do you still believe that Jesus is a simply prophet? Sorry to ask this but if God did not show you personally the godly nature of Jesus you are not a "true christian"

KisKatte · Aug 15, 2021

small little offtopic: It is not the whole truth to differentiate converts and people who were born in the orthodox world. Me too was born in the orthodox world, left church, became muslim and so on atheist and so on.... I am a true convert after having real experience with Jesus and returned to my church. What I have to say is that people who do not leave church simply do not know what suffering and bad luck they escape if they continue visit the church. And also the born in the orthodox world christians can develop during time to true believers. Just be not too simple with prejudices. I also tend to love more the converts of any denomination becaues they really searched and found God but this does not change that my leaving of the church was a FAILURE and led to lots of SINS. So how can I judge the ones who sinned less than me???? And who escaped through this a lot of suffering? Just judging them because I now know more than them???? Through failures????

KisKatte · Aug 15, 2021

How do you determine that a traditionalistic born in orthodox world orthodox believer is not a true believer? Just because He/She does not talk to you? Does not understand your sufferings and your faith? The secret in their hearts only knows God. And it is normal that people who know suffering tend to love others who are also suffering. They have a wider horizont to understand different people in their needs. So they can appear as more strong believers. The ones who did not leave church know less suffering and are more self confident and arrogant. But this does not make them wrong believers!

KisKatte · Aug 15, 2021

In my humble opinion the secret to make more of ones faith is to not let oneself distract by details. The argue about the details of the faith is up to the high rulers, the pope and the patriarch, they are wise and have studied the differences. This is THEIR fight. And their temptation. For simple church visitors it is more to remember the judgement day. Nobdoy will ask with whom you prayed, the only thing that will matter is the two questions: Whom did you do wrong? Whom did you do good?. Nothing, absolutely nothing else will matter. Sure it is interesting when orthodox wise people warn you to go to the catholics. Some consider catholics being mentally ill and dangerous. There are reasons why one should focus on the own faith and not be distracted by different cultures and false dogmas who can lead you wrong way. So you can search for the truth out of interest, but this does not value you a strong believer. Your faith will be judged according your actions. Not dogmas.

Malleeboy · Aug 22, 2021

Thanks for all who answered, some were kind, some were challenging and some were confusing.
We have both been studying and learning about Orthodoxy and then talking through what we think.

In some ways my own tradition is closer to Orthodox beliefs than many Evangelicals, as I come from a restorationist church tradition.

Synergism
Faith is more than mental ascent
Read Paul and James in a similar way; not faith and works; nor faith without works; but faith that works.
Baptism is for remission of sin, union with Christ and entry into the church
Partial depravity as opposed to Augustinian total depravity.
Amillennialism

In other ways very different

Credobaptist
Priest of all believers
Deacon and Elders (your Priests) and viewing Overseers (your Bishsops) as synonym to Elders.

I have learnt that my son is names after two orthodox saints, one from Ireland and another from Brittany.
Anyway I would like to ask some more questions, so thanks for your responses in advance.

ArmyMatt · Aug 22, 2021

no, worries! by all means do continue to ask!

but I will say that Orthodoxy does believe in the priesthood of all believers, as every Orthodox Christian participates in the Eucharist (and that is the main priesthood).

and every bishop is a priest, and therefore an elder (elder and priest are synonymous).

All4Christ · Aug 22, 2021

Malleeboy said:
Thanks for all who answered, some were kind, some were challenging and some were confusing.
We have both been studying and learning about Orthodoxy and then talking through what we think.

In some ways my own tradition is closer to Orthodox beliefs than many Evangelicals, as I come from a restorationist church tradition.

Synergism

Faith is more than mental ascent

Read Paul and James in a similar way; not faith and works; nor faith without works; but faith that works.

Baptism is for remission of sin, union with Christ and entry into the church

Partial depravity as opposed to Augustinian total depravity.

Amillennialism

In other ways very different

Credobaptist

Priest of all believers

Deacon and Elders (your Priests) and viewing Overseers (your Bishsops) as synonym to Elders.

I have learnt that my son is names after two orthodox saints, one from Ireland and another from Brittany.
Anyway I would like to ask some more questions, so thanks for your responses in advance.

Please feel free to ask anything!

As mentioned - we actually do believe in the priesthood of all believers (upon entrance into the faith / baptism). We are all called to intercede for the world before God, to speak on God's behalf to others, and to offer sacrifices of praise, talents and our goods in thanksgiving to Him.
Along with the universal royal priesthood of believers - there is an additional call for certain believers to also serve as presbyters or elders (priests), ordained by an apostle or by someone who has that authority through the apostolic succession. Some refer to this as the sacerdotal priesthood.

A royal priesthood – S I L O U A N

Regarding the elders, presbyters and overseers - a bishop is an presbyter / elder who is also acts as overseer. His priestly (presbyter) duties are first and foremost though. A deacon has a distinct role of service.

Malleeboy · Sep 5, 2021

Thanks to both ArmyMatt and All4Christ,

My son and I continue to read, talk and pray. He suggested I read John of Damascus. I plan to read Ignatius as well. I have been watching Gavin Ortlund, who I have really enjoyed. (Who is very different to Jay Dyer, who my son watches, who already labelled me a Marcionite to my son.)

I note that America has an American Orthodox church but there is no such church in Australia, and from my understanding America only had it is own Orthodox church through Alaska having been Russian territory. So if yours is the universal church, why isn't there an Australian Orthodox church? Melbourne has 5 million people, the majority of whom are Angloceltic, but it appears there are very few services in English? (The ROCOR church he has visited has English services once a month) Why isn't there a St Alfred's or St Eanswythe's?

Paidiske · Sep 5, 2021

While I'm not Orthodox, I'm very familiar with the church landscape in Melbourne. If looking for services in English, I'd suggest the Antiochian Orthodox, who tend to be less migrant communities and have more converts.

There's a member here who converted to that church and was worshipping in the religious centre at Monash University, under their chaplaincy, but I can't now for the life of me remember her name. Does anyone else remember a young Australian woman who converted from Anglicanism to Orthodoxy in Melbourne? Had an avatar of herself wearing a headscarf? Keen musician? Some diminutive of Rebecca in her name, I think?

prodromos · Sep 5, 2021

Malleeboy said:
Thanks to both ArmyMatt and All4Christ,

My son and I continue to read, talk and pray. He suggested I read John of Damascus. I plan to read Ignatius as well. I have been watching Gavin Ortlund, who I have really enjoyed. (Who is very different to Jay Dyer, who my son watches, who already labelled me a Marcionite to my son.)

I note that America has an American Orthodox church but there is no such church in Australia, and from my understanding America only had it is own Orthodox church through Alaska having been Russian territory. So if yours is the universal church, why isn't there an Australian Orthodox church? Melbourne has 5 million people, the majority of whom are Angloceltic, but it appears there are very few services in English? (The ROCOR church he has visited has English services once a month) Why isn't there a St Alfred's or St Eanswythe's?

Most of the spread of Orthodoxy into Australia has been through migration rather than missionary activity, and the supply of Orthodox migrants has primarily come from countries that had only recently emerged from severe persecution, Greece had been subjucated under the Ottomon Empire for centuries, Russia had been under the heel of Communism and Serbia had suffered under both. So the Orthodox Christians were in survival mode, having struggled to keep their Orthodox faith alive under threat of extinction. Australia was also, at the time of these migrations, a largely Christian country, so you can't simply go about preaching Christ crucified when most people around you have accepted Christ

prodromos · Sep 5, 2021

The Church that we regularly attend has services only in English. It is under the Russian Orthodox Archdiocese but the priestmonk who serves is a former Anglican missionary who converted decades ago. The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese used to have English services once a month, pre COVID.

buzuxi02 · Sep 6, 2021

Malleeboy said:
Do I have it correct that if he commits to Orthodoxy it would mean:
He cannot take communion with his family.

Correct on this point. Communion requires holding a common confession of faith. It's a sign of unity to the faith group and doctrines you belong to (hence being communal). Also in Orthodoxy, The Orthodox Christian themselves should have prepared themselves to receive. A priest can forbid a known sinner who refuses to confess, fast, and repent.

Malleeboy said:
He cannot attend a church service with his family, except for weddings and funerals
He cannot pray with us (we have had a 5 min together nearly ever night since the boys were infants).
So that the next time we will be in church together would when I'm dead, and only then begrudgingly.
Of course I have the hope that we both (with the grace of God) be together in heaven.

This is more of a pastoral question. You are not wrong with what you write. In Orthodoxy certain canons and rules can be applied with "akribeia"- Greek for exactitude, strict application and rigid application, its following the exact letter of the law. OR they can be applied with "oikonomia" - Greek for "household management" which means applying rules with leniency and making exceptions. The latter application is more about looking at the spirit of the law and seeing if it can be disregarded in the spirit of the greater good.
For example an Orthodox can always lead a prayer with non-Orthodox, he can even be present and stand respectfully in the presence of non- Orthodox prayers. He can even be allowed to continue to attend his old sect as a weaning off or occasionally for family reasons. What he cannot do is imply the heterodox confession is equal to the Orthodox or imply an equality of confessions to the [Orthodox] church.

Malleeboy · Sep 6, 2021

"so you can't simply go about preaching Christ crucified when most people around you have accepted Christ" in that line lies the whole challenge of Orthodoxy and its relationship to followers of "the way" outside the Orthodoxy's understanding of Orthodoxy's singularity and organizational monopoly of the church and therefore the body of Christ. If it (the Orthodox church) really believes what it appears to believe then I can't help but see a disconnect.

The church in the first millennium often arrived in pagan lands, and sort to redeem pagan customs and Christianize them. The Orthodox do hold that pre-schism British churches were Orthodox but there seems no attempt to utilize that in mission. As Protestant looking on the outside at both groups, I perceive Catholics do a better job of being catholic (universal) than Orthodox.

My other questions, is I don't understand how the Orthodox hold the spirit is active in any real Christian manner outside their ranks? Am I to listen to Handel and JS Bach and not see the Holy Spirit working through true believers to glorify the real Jesus? Did not the Holy Spirit illuminate Bunyan to write the Pilgrim's Progress?

buzuxi02 · Sep 6, 2021

Malleeboy said:
so you can't simply go about preaching Christ crucified when most people around you have accepted Christ" in that line lies the whole challenge of Orthodoxy and its relationship to followers of "the way" outside the Orthodoxy's understanding of Orthodoxy's singularity and organizational monopoly of the church and therefore the body of Christ. If it (the Orthodox church) really believes what it appears to believe then I can't help but see a disconnect.

Sure you can, in hopes of them coming to the Church. We do not believe in denominations or branch theory. For us the Church cannot be divided into competing heresies. It's impossible for the Body of Christ to be splintered or fragmented and divided against itself, Not a bone of His was broken.
But mass conversion can only occur when the time is ripe and maybe never and it's hard once fallen away to ever reverse such a course of action. (Hebrews 6:4-6).
In Orthodoxy the word catholic does not neccesarily mean universal, for us that goes to the word oikomene. The word Kata-Holos means complete and whole. Corresponding to the whole faith under the sun, (which we believe we hold).
If not then it wouldn't matter which church you attend or what anyone teaches, no need for strict rules, it could all be subjective and still correct.

We don't really make pronouncements outside the Church. If God works outside us great, we can only abide by what has been revealed to us. There is an understanding of the Spirit working externally in all things being God but internally within the Church. If an Orthodox church is present and times and circumstances are fairly normal the Spirit will lead the seeker to the Church to make full anything that was lacking.

ArmyMatt · Sep 6, 2021

Malleeboy said:
My other questions, is I don't understand how the Orthodox hold the spirit is active in any real Christian manner outside their ranks? Am I to listen to Handel and JS Bach and not see the Holy Spirit working through true believers to glorify the real Jesus? Did not the Holy Spirit illuminate Bunyan to write the Pilgrim's Progress?

the Holy Spirit is God, and therefore can do whatever He wants, and inspire whoever He wants.

Question around someone converting to orthodoxy...

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