IS ISRAEL IN THE NEW COVENANT GOD'S CHURCH?

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

Huh???

Either this is bloody nonsense... or...

there is a physical Israel and a Spirit Israel.
Physical Israel is unbelieving heirs of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Spirit Israel is believing Jews... and Gentiles:

Ephesians 2:14 (AV)
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Davy said:

So Lord Jesus was pointing to another group with that "synagogue of Satan" group, which represent His strongest enemies of this world.

Click to expand...

I disagree with your statement that "Jesus was pointing to another group" instead of the "synagogue of Satan"; meaning those who were not "true Jews." Clearly there was persecution in the early church by the Jews to those who accepted Jesus as the Messiah as you can see from the following....

(Acts 5:27-42)
(Acts 6-8:1)
(Gal 1:13)

Paul’s conversion was a bitter pill to the Jews of Damascus where he first began to preach this gospel. Paul, after his conversion, was subject to almost immediate threat to life and limb,... Paul was a Jew of high standing in his time, but somehow his standing afforded him no protection when he began to preach Christ crucified.

(Acts 9:23-25)

Perhaps the most striking demonstration of the evolution of Jewish persecution is found in the treatment James, the brother of Jesus,

(Acts 12:1-5)

Shortly after James, the brother of Jesus was killed, the persecuted leadership of the church moved outside of Judea – to Pella in the early 60’s A.D. seeking safety from Jewish wrath. The Jews had persecuted the Christians in the hopes that they could protect their captive nation.

In addition to the reference to "the Synagogue of Satan", in John 8:44, 47b where Jesus is speaking to the crowd in the temple court of the Gentiles, and of which the Jewish scribes and Pharisees were there also, he says to them..."You are of your father the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires..."

And the Jews in company when Jesus said...

John 8:43–44 (AV)
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

???

We have to get off this false belief system that makes humanity out to be good.

The Bible says only God is good (Matthew 19:17 Mark 10:18 Luke 18:19).

Mankind is evil (Isaiah 64:6 Psalm 14:3 Psalm 53:3 Romans 3:10).

The point Jesus was making in Matthew 16:13-23 is that the things of man are of the devil. And we are opposed to God by nature.

We who believe in Christ are counted as righteous... we are not righteous. His righteousness is imputed to our account (Romans 4:3 Romans 4:5).

There are only two sides in this conflict: good and evil.

When I tried (years ago) to make this biblical point: that the Church is Israel / All Israel / Spirit Israel / the Israel of God... I received no small amount of opposition and grief from all sides.

Pride and Prejudice.

Pride from the physical Jews (people born Jewish) and prejudice from those born Gentile... regardless of whether either believed in Jesus or not.

The Prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:5 Jeremiah 1:10) wrote:

Jeremiah 31:31–40 (AV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Hebrews 12:18–29 (AV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Galatians 4:21–31 (AV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 either totally omitted the Gentiles from a salvation God clearly set out to save both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:4-5 Romans 4:18 Romans 3:29 Colossians 1:27 Acts 11:1) not to mention John 3:16-18 (the world), 1 Timothy 4:10, and 1 John 2:2...

Either Jeremiah omitted the Gentiles altogether in Jeremiah 31:31-37... or it included all who would believe in the Jewish Messiah Jesus. And Gentiles are in the House of Israel spiritually. Clearly this has no birthright on the Land (Eretz Israel). Being a Gentile by birth and reborn a Spirit Jew does not make one a physical Jew. Only the Lord through Jewish born parents can make you that way.

But there are two distinct Israels...

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They are not all Spirit Israel which are of physical Israel. Otherwise the statement makes no sense.

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This distinction dates back as far as:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

This circumcision is available to females as well.

Only in Spirit Israel is this word fulfilled:

Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Not Levi only.

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The Jewish thought is expressed in Greek thus:

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

The concept is a kingdom of priests each with individual / unique ministries to perform...

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Ephesians 2 (AV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

JohnD70X7 said:

When I tried (years ago) to make this biblical point: that the Church is Israel / All Israel / Spirit Israel / the Israel of God... I received no small amount of opposition and grief from all sides.

Click to expand...

So you don't distinguish the Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal, and Israel the nation?

Guojing said:

So you don't distinguish the Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal, and Israel the nation?

Click to expand...

Israel the nation is separate. I showed as much in Galatians 4:21-31.

Israel the nation / modern day Sate is made up of Jews, Gentiles / believers and unbelievers.

If you refer to the nation Israel as the Jews over history, I also distinguished them (believing Jews versus unbelieving Jews and pointed out where the Apostle Paul did too in Romans 9:6 and Romans 2:28-29).

Spirit Israel (believers in Jesus) is distinct (distinguished) from Physical Israel (Jewish-born non believers in Jesus).

Ligurian said:

Jesus called them sons of the devil. How can they be Abraham's seed and never have been in bondage? They were Edomites, and/or from Ishmael or Keturah. Since Edomites had been made proselytes by the Maccabees, they became none other than Jews... says Josephus. But I doubt that God would see it that way, since He says, Esau I hated.

John 8:33 They answered Him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?

They just didn't do what Abraham did... can't change your DNA, since God knows what He made you. Can't pretend that the Everlasting Covenant of Genesis 17:13 is over, either.

Paul was a Benjamite... not a Judahite. And Jesus wasn't an apostle, either.

John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
(Ioudaios = Judaean)
Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man [which am] a Jew of Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.
Philippians 3:5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, [of] the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

Kinda hard to see how Paul considered himself a Judaean, since he came from Tarsus of the tribe of Benjamin... but this must be the first place where the whole 12 tribes started calling themselves Jews... or rather, Ioudaios... since the name Jew seems to be connected with the theology called Judaism, today:

"Pharisaism became Talmudism, Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism, and Medieval Rabbinism became Modern Rabbinism."--rabbi Finkelstein, The Pharisees
Full text of "The Pharisees The Sociological Background Of Their Faith Volume I"

Click to expand...

Moriah's Song said:

I think you read my post incorrectly. I never said "Jesus was an apostle." All I said was that Jesus, Paul and the apostles were ethnic Jews.

Click to expand...

My mistake, your wording was confusing to me.

However, Paul was not an ethnic Jew... since the word Jew in the New Testament is actually Ioudaios... meaning Judean, of the tribe of Judah. Paul was from Benjamin, not Judah. The whole 12 tribes are not from Judah, so calling them all Jews is wrong. Especially since the fairly modern name Jew means they keep Judaism. Judaism isn't just the Torah, it includes the Talmud. Certainly Paul must have kept the Talmud... being a Pharisee, that's what he'd've been raised on.

But saying you're a Judean/Judahite when you're not one will not turn out well, as Revelation 3:9 proves. After the Maccabees proselytized Esau, whom God hates in Malachai 1:2-3, probably a lot of people in Judea were Edomites. Who else could say they were Abraham's seed and killed the Lamb of God in Jerusalem? In fact, the Pharisees are accountable for the blood of all righteous people from Abel to Zechariah in Matthew 23:34-37. I don't know what that says to you, but it speaks volumes to me.

Guojing said:

So you don't distinguish the Body of Christ, where Jews and gentiles are equal, and Israel the nation?

Click to expand...

That's called replacement theology. If it weren't religion, it would be called identity theft.

JohnD70X7 said:

When I tried (years ago) to make this biblical point: that the Church is Israel / All Israel / Spirit Israel / the Israel of God... I received no small amount of opposition and grief from all sides.
Pride and Prejudice.
Pride from the physical Jews (people born Jewish) and prejudice from those born Gentile... regardless of whether either believed in Jesus or not.

The Prophet to the nations (Jeremiah 1:5 Jeremiah 1:10) wrote:

Jeremiah 31:31–40 (AV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.
38 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that the city shall be built to the LORD from the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes, and all the fields unto the brook of Kidron, unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, shall be holy unto the LORD; it shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.

Hebrews 12:18–29 (AV)
18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
27 And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.
28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Galatians 4:21–31 (AV)
21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

Jeremiah 31:31-37 either totally omitted the Gentiles from a salvation God clearly set out to save both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:4-5 Romans 4:18 Romans 3:29 Colossians 1:27 Acts 11:1) not to mention John 3:16-18 (the world), 1 Timothy 4:10, and 1 John 2:2...

Either Jeremiah omitted the Gentiles altogether in Jeremiah 31:31-37... or it included all who would believe in the Jewish Messiah Jesus. And Gentiles are in the House of Israel spiritually. Clearly this has no birthright on the Land (Eretz Israel). Being a Gentile by birth and reborn a Spirit Jew does not make one a physical Jew. Only the Lord through Jewish born parents can make you that way.

But there are two distinct Israels...

Romans 9:6 (AV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:

They are not all Spirit Israel which are of physical Israel. Otherwise the statement makes no sense.

Romans 2:28–29 (AV)
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

This distinction dates back as far as:

Deuteronomy 10:16 (AV)
16 Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked.

This circumcision is available to females as well.

Only in Spirit Israel is this word fulfilled:

Exodus 19:6 (AV)
6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Not Levi only.

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The Jewish thought is expressed in Greek thus:

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

The concept is a kingdom of priests each with individual / unique ministries to perform...

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Ephesians 2 (AV)
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 3:16 (AV)
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

Click to expand...

All God's people are the one olive tree going back to Abraham, of Romans 11, consistng of both OT and NT saints.

Davy said:

Matt 13:38-40
38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
KJV

Click to expand...

Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the Kingdom, and understandeth [it] not, then cometh the wicked [one], and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

Matthew 13:52 Then said He unto them, Therefore every scribe [which is] instructed unto the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure [things] new and old.

JohnD70X7 said:

Israel the nation is separate. I showed as much in Galatians 4:21-31.
Israel the nation / modern day Sate is made up of Jews, Gentiles / believers and unbelievers.
If you refer to the nation Israel as the Jews over history, I also distinguished them

Click to expand...

(believing Jews versus unbelieving Jews and pointed out where the Apostle Paul did too in Romans 9:6 and Romans 2:28-29).
Spirit Israel (believers in Jesus) is distinct (distinguished) from Physical Israel (Jewish-born non believers in Jesus).

Click to expand...

God's people in the OT were called Israel, God's people in the NT are called the church, both being the one olive tree of God's people going back to Abraham (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:20). . .
called the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16), or true Israel (Romans 2:28-29, Romans 9:6-9), or spiritual Israel (Galatians 3:29).

Since not all Israel are believing-in-Jesus-Christ Israel, not all Israel are God's people (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:20).
Hence the distinction between Israel and true Israel of the promise (Romans 9:6-9).

Ligurian said:

That's called replacement theology. If it weren't religion, it would be called identity theft.

Click to expand...

The NT presents Fulfillment theology, by no means "identity theft."

And speaking of "replacement," how would you characterize the cutting off of unbeleiving Israel from the one olive tree of God's people going back to Abraham, and Gentiles being grafted on in their place (Romans 11:19-20)?

Looks like God's replacement to me. . .so why are you complaining about God's work?

JohnD70X7 said:

Jeremiah 31:31-37 either totally omitted the Gentiles from a salvation God clearly set out to save both Jews and Gentiles (Genesis 17:4-5 Romans 4:18 Romans 3:29 Colossians 1:27 Acts 11:1) not to mention John 3:16-18 (the world), 1 Timothy 4:10, and 1 John 2:2...

1 Peter 2:3–9 (AV)
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

The Jewish thought is expressed in Greek thus:

Revelation 1:6 (AV)
6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Revelation 5:10 (AV)
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Click to expand...

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] elect stranger diaspora [in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
The "world" in John 3:16 = this:
Isaiah 24:4-5 The earth mourns, and the world is ruined, the lofty ones of the earth are mourning. And she has sinned by reason of her inhabitants; because they have transgressed the law, and changed the ordinances, even the everlasting covenant.LXX

Genesis 17:3-4 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, 4 As for Me, behold, My covenant [is] with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Genesis 17:13-14 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and My covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken My covenant.

Genesis 22:15-18 And the angel of the LORD called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, 16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only [son]: 17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; 18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice.

So, they took foreign wives

Genesis 38:2 And Judah saw there a daughter of a certain Canaanite, whose name [was] Shuah; and he took her, and went in unto her. 5 And she yet again conceived, and bare a son; and called his name Shelah: and he was at Chezib, when she bare him. 1 Chronicles 4:21-23 The sons of Shelah the son of Judah [were], Er the father of Lecah, and Laadah the father of Mareshah, and the families of the house of them that wrought fine linen, of the house of Ashbea, 22 And Jokim, and the men of Chozeba, and Joash, and Saraph, who had the dominion in Moab, and Jashubilehem. And [these are] ancient things. 23 These [were] the potters, and those that dwelt among plants and hedges: there they dwelt with the king for his work.

Genesis 41:45 And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphnathpaaneah; and he gave him to wife Asenath the daughter of Potipherah priest of On. And Joseph went out over [all] the land of Egypt.

Exodus 2:21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter. Numbers 12:1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman.

Joshua 2:1 And Joshua the son of Nun sent out of [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]tim two men to spy secretly, saying, Go view the land, even Jericho. And they went, and came into an harlot's house, named Rahab, and lodged there.

Judges 14:1-2 And Samson went down to Timnath, and saw a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines. 2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnath of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.

Ruth 1:4 And they took them wives of the women of Moab; the name of the one [was] Orpah, and the name of the other Ruth: and they dwelled there about ten years.

1 Kings 11:1 But King Solomon loved many foreign women, as well as the daughter of Pharaoh: women of the Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Sidonians, and Hittites;

1 Chronicles 3:5 And these were born unto him in Jerusalem; Shimea, and Shobab, and Nathan, and Solomon, four, of Bathshua the daughter of Ammiel:

Matthew 1:5 And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; 1:6 And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias;

That's just a small sample. What do you suppose happened to the children of these foreign wives? Ezra found bunches of these women and their children... they put them away... sent them off like Abraham sent off Keturah and her sons. And so, wherever they went they each had x# children, and they had x# children, and they had x# children... And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed My voice.

The question to ask is this: which nations circumcize? Genesis 17:13-14
Circumcision By Country 2021

Clare73 said:

The NT presents Fulfillment theology, by no means "identity theft."

And speaking of "replacement," how would you characterize the cutting off of unbeleiving Israel from the one olive tree of God's people going back to Abraham, and Gentiles being grafted on in their place (Romans 11:19-20)?

Looks like God's replacement to me. . .so why are you complaining about God's work?

Click to expand...

11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

That letter is SO not written to me. Galatians 2:7-9 ... Vive la differencé!

Your stumblingblock = skandalon

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do anomia;
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Your broken branches = ekklao, break off... or ekkleio, exclude.

The Kingdom Gospel doesn't use those words.
Instead, God uses these:

Matthew 12:18-21 Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased: I will put My spirit upon Him, and He shall shew judgment to the Nation. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear His voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in His name shall the Nation trust.
Isaiah 42:1-7 1 Jacob is My servant, I will help him: Israel is My chosen, My soul has accepted him; I have put My Spirit upon Him; He shall bring forth judgment to the Nation.LXX

Your grafted in = egkentrizo from en and a derivative of kentron; to prick in, i.e. ingraft:--graff in(-to). kentron = from kenteo (to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting.

The Kingdom Gospel uses that word once:

Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.

Ligurian said:

11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

That letter is SO not written to me. Galatians 2:7-9 ... Vive la differencé!

Your stumblingblock = skandalon

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth His angels, and they shall gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and them which do anomia;
Revelation 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Your broken branches = ekklao, break off... or ekkleio, exclude.

The Kingdom Gospel doesn't use those words.
Instead, God uses these:

Matthew 12:18-21 Behold My servant, whom I have chosen; My beloved, in whom My soul is well pleased: I will put My spirit upon Him, and He shall shew judgment to the nation. 19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear His voice in the streets. 20 A bruised reed shall He not break, and smoking flax shall He not quench, till He send forth judgment unto victory. 21 And in His name shall the nation trust. (Isaiah 42:1-7 Jacob is My servant, I will help him: Israel is My chosen, My soul has accepted him; I have put My Spirit upon Him; He shall bring forth judgment to the Nation.LXX ... I know, interesting difference, right?)

Your grafted in = egkentrizo from en and a derivative of kentron; to prick in, i.e. ingraft:--graff in(-to). kentron = from kenteo (to prick); a point ("centre"), i.e. a sting (figuratively, poison) or goad (figuratively, divine impulse):--prick, sting.

The Kingdom Gospel uses that only word once:

Revelation 9:10 And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power [was] to hurt men five months.

Click to expand...

Non-responsive to the specifics of my question.

Clare73 said:

Non-responsive to the specifics of my question.

Click to expand...

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me

Galatians 2:7

as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] elect stranger diaspora
[in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 1 Peter 1:23-25

Matthew 10:6-7 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribe diaspora, greeting. James 2:20

Ligurian said:

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me

Galatians 2:7

as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] elect stranger diaspora
[in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 1 Peter 1:23-25

Matthew 10:6-7 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribe diaspora, greeting. James 2:20

Click to expand...

Non-responsive to post #713.

Ligurian said:

Romans 11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:

the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me

Galatians 2:7

as [the gospel] of the circumcision [was] unto Peter

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, apostle [of] Jesus Christ, [to the] elect stranger diaspora
[in] Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia. 1 Peter 1:23-25

Matthew 10:6-7 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The Kingdom of Heaven is at hand.

James 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ,
to the twelve tribe diaspora, greeting. James 2:20

Click to expand...

Clare73 said:

The NT presents Fulfillment theology, by no means "identity theft."

And speaking of "replacement," how would you characterize the cutting off of unbeleiving Israel from the one olive tree of God's people going back to Abraham, and Gentiles being grafted on in their place (Romans 11:19-20)?

Looks like God's replacement to me. . .so why are you complaining about God's work?

Click to expand...

Would God really cut off the people who are keeping His Commandments? Would God say the Disciples are cursed for following what Jesus taught? No, He would not.

So... when the Circumcision went spreading the Gospel of the Reign of the Heavens, they were filling the olive tree's branches with fruit. And they told two friends, and they told two friends, ad infinitum... So where exactly is this empty space the gospel of the gentiles is seeing? Are the gentiles hoping to replace the Circumcision that has come to believe? Replacement just doesn't make sense to me.

Can you really replace
the portion of the circumcision who weren't keeping the law
with gentiles who aren't keeping the law?

How does that make sense? Why didn't God just zap all of Jacob into being saved by grace... and be done with it, already?

Clare73 said:

Non-responsive to post #713.

Click to expand...

Taking a fifth, again?