God's unconditional promises to the ancient nation of Israel

BABerean2

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And then we SHOULD have seen Israel in ALL their LAND promised to the 12 Tribes .

Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.



Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

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Dan Perez

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Jos 21:43 And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.



Heb 11:15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
Heb 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

.

And what happened in Jos 21:43 is NOT what will happen to Israel AFTER the Great Tribulation >

dan p
 
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BABerean2

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And what happened in Jos 21:43 is NOT what will happen to Israel AFTER the Great Tribulation >

dan p


Do you understand the difference between the two Israels in Romans 2:28-29, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5?

Counterfeit Israel: Pastor Chuck Baldwin


.
 
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Clare73

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And you never tried ?

Let's refresh it , then !

In the Greek text there are 8 TENSES , 3 Voices , 4 moods , 8 cases , and when talking about the ACCUSATIVE CASE , seems to be the oldest of the cases and embraces 3 ideas , the end , or direction or extent of motion or action .

I am not a scholar , but I can read what the , really good scholars have written and of course the Greek pronouns , like OV AND UN are called DISJUNCTIVE PARTICLE , NEGATIVES , and when seeing thr words NOT , NEITHER , they are negative .

You can not depend on me and need to study and be convinced as there is a lot to learn .

dan p
Non-responsive to Hebrews 11:13-16.
 
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Clare73

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And missed Heb 11:13 , where I replied on # 131 ?
That did not specifically address the points of my demonstration of Hebrews 11:13-16.
why do you never reply to my replys ?
Which ones to me did I miss?
 
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Dan Perez

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That did not specifically address the points of my demonstration of Hebrews 11:13-16.

Which ones to me did I miss?
Missed OP # 147 , 151 , 157 , 164 and 108 where it says IT IS FINISHED , IN John 19:30 , and what does that mean ?

Herenis what bit means " IT IS FINISHED " is in the Greek Perfect Tense , Passive Voice and min the Indicative Mood .

What is finished is the payment for all sins , PASSED , PRESENT and FUTURE .

The PASSIVE VOICE , means Christ paid for all sins .

The Indicative Mood means the PERFECT tense , and PASSIVE VOICE and the INDICATIVE MOOD are true FACTS <

Heb 9:15 proves it !!

dan p
 
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Clare73

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Missed OP # 147 , 151 , 157 , 164 and 108 where it says IT IS FINISHED , IN John 19:30 , and what does that mean ?

Herenis what bit means " IT IS FINISHED " is in the Greek Perfect Tense , Passive Voice and min the Indicative Mood .

What is finished is the payment for all sins , PASSED , PRESENT and FUTURE .

The PASSIVE VOICE , means Christ paid for all sins .

The Indicative Mood means the PERFECT tense , and PASSIVE VOICE and the INDICATIVE MOOD are true FACTS <

Heb 9:15 proves it !!

dan p
Those weren't addressed to me.
 
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BABerean2

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Gal 3:6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Gal 3:7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Gal 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

.
 
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Do you understand the difference between the two Israels in Romans 2:28-29, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5?

Counterfeit Israel: Pastor Chuck Baldwin
.
Not even one of the passages you have cited here says anything whatsoever about "two Israels." They ALL are abut the difference between the fleshly Israel and the true Israel, which the associated passages CLEARLY explain are a subset of the fleshly Israel, not a different group of people.

the concept of "two Israels" is not stated anywhere in any scripture whatsoever.
 
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BABerean2

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Not even one of the passages you have cited here says anything whatsoever about "two Israels." They ALL are abut the difference between the fleshly Israel and the true Israel, which the associated passages CLEARLY explain are a subset of the fleshly Israel, not a different group of people.

the concept of "two Israels" is not stated anywhere in any scripture whatsoever.

Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?

(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)



The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?


1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)


2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?


3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?


4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?


5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?


6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?


7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?


8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)


9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9)



10. Watch the YouTube video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.



Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)

What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?

Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?

Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?

Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?


.
 
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Clare73

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Do you understand the difference between the two Israels in Romans 2:28-29, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5?
True Israel (Romans 9:6-9) is born of the Promise (Jesus Christ, Genesis 15:5), as Jacob (Israel) was born of the promise (of Isaac to Sarah, Genesis 18:10, 14).
 
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Biblewriter

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Who is really teaching “Replacement Theology” ?

(Did God fulfill His promises to the Jewish people at Calvary? Matthew 26:28, John 19:30)



The advocates of modern Dispensational Theology often accuse others of promoting “Replacement Theology”, or some may even say “Antisemitism”. What does the Bible say about their accusations?


1. Who is replacing Christ as the seed of Abraham through which all the families of the Earth would be blessed in Genesis 12:3, with Abraham’s modern descendants? (See Galatians 3:8)


2. Who is replacing the one people of God in John 10:16, with two peoples of God ?


3. Who is replacing the one seed (Christ) in Galatians 3:16, with the many seeds?


4. Who is replacing the children of the promise in Romans 9:8, with the children of the flesh?


5. Who is replacing the faithful “remnant” of Israelites in Romans 11:1-5, with the Baal worshipers?


6. Who is replacing the word "so" in Romans 11:26, with the word "then"?


7. Who is attempting to replace the Church made up of all races of people, with one made up only of Gentiles? Why did Peter address the crowd as “all the house of Israel” in Acts 2:36, when about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost?


8. Based on Hebrews 9:15, the New Covenant cannot be separated from the Messiah’s death. Is the covenant in Daniel 9:27 connected to the Messiah’s death in Daniel 9:26. Is the covenant with the “many” in Daniel 9:27 the same covenant with the “many” in Matthew 26:28? If it is, some have replaced the New Covenant in Daniel 9:27 with a future covenant made by an antichrist not found in Daniel chapter 9. (See the 1599 Geneva Bible used by the Pilgrims.)


9. Those promoting the Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology often accuse others of teaching “Replacement Theology”, but are they the masters of it? Are they promoting a form of Dual Covenant Theology based on race? (See “genealogies” in Titus 3:9)



10. Watch the YouTube video “Genesis of Dispensational Theology” to see the origin of this man-made doctrine, which is less than 200 years old. It was brought to the United States about the time of the Civil War by John Nelson Darby. The doctrine was later incorporated into the notes of the Scofield Reference Bible, and then spread through much of the modern Church.



Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas Texas was created in part to promote John Darby’s Two Peoples of God doctrine of Dispensational Theology.

Lewis Sperry Chafer, the first president of Dallas Theological, had the following to say about the difference between Israel and the Church:



“The dispensationalist believes that throughout the ages God is pursuing two distinct purposes: one related to the earth with earthly people and earthly objectives involved which is Judaism; while the other is related to heaven with heavenly people and heavenly objectives involved, which is Christianity.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer, Dispensationalism (Dallas, Seminary Press, 1936), p. 107.


Chafer states that, ‘Israel is an eternal nation, heir to an eternal land, with an eternal kingdom, on which David rules from an eternal throne,’ that is, on earth and distinct from the church who will be in heaven.”

Lewis Sperry Chafer. Systematic Theology. 1975. Vol. IV. pp. 315-323.


John Walvoord, another prominent voice of Dallas Theological stated…


"...it is an article of normative dispensational belief that the boundaries of the land promised to Abraham and his descendants from the Nile to the Euphrates will be literally instituted and that Jesus Christ will return to a literal and theocratic Jewish kingdom centred on a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. In such a scheme the Church on earth is relegated to the status of a parenthesis.”

John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question.1979, p. 25

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Are there two peoples of God in John 10:16? (See also 1 John 2:22-23, 2 John 1:7-11.)

What is the land promise to the Old Testament Saints in Hebrews 11:15-16?

Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, is this earth “eternal”? Will it be replaced by a new earth?

Based on Acts 2:36, and Romans 9:6-8, and Romans 11:1-5, and Hebrews 12:22-24, and James 1:1-3, can faithful Israel and the Church be separated into two different groups?

Who is the New Covenant promised to in Jeremiah 31:31-34, and Hebrews 8:6-13?

Will modern Orthodox Jews ever be saved outside of the New Covenant Church?


.
Great dodge. When you cannot answer an argument, just bring up a different argument.

But the fact remains, that you cannot quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS that “the church” is Israel.
 
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Clare73

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Great dodge. When you cannot answer an argument, just bring up a different argument.

But the fact remains, that
you cannot quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS that “the church” is Israel.
And you cannot quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS "God is sovereign."
Nor can you quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS "God is triune."

That fact proves nothing. So let's retire this irrelevant phrase and talk about what "Scripture presents."

1) Scripture presents those who belong to Christ (the church, the body of Chirst) as Abraham's seed (Israel) in Galatians 3:29, and as heirs according to the promise (to Abraham's seed; i.e., Christ) in Galatians 3:16.

2) Scripture presents the one olive tree as the continuation of Israel in the church (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:23).

3) Scripture presents the New Covenant made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the blood of Jesus as made with the church (Hebrews 9:15), the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).
 
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BABerean2

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But the fact remains, that you cannot quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS that “the church” is Israel.

You are ignoring the fact that about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost.


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later.

.
 
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Biblewriter

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You are ignoring the fact that about 3,000 Israelites accepted Christ on the Day of Pentecost.


Act 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:


Act 2:22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:


Act 2:36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Act 2:40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Act 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.


The Gentiles were not grafted into the Church until several years later.

.
THAT has ZERO bearing on the question.
 
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Biblewriter

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And you cannot quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS "God is sovereign."
Nor can you quote EVEN ONE scripture that SAYS "God is triune."

That fact proves nothing. So let's retire this irrelevant phrase and talk about what "Scripture presents."

1) Scripture presents those who belong to Christ (the church, the body of Chirst) as Abraham's seed (Israel) in Galatians 3:29, and as heirs according to the promise (to Abraham's seed; i.e., Christ) in Galatians 3:16.

2) Scripture presents the one olive tree as the continuation of Israel in the church (Romans 11:16-17, Romans 11:23).

3) Scripture presents the New Covenant made with the house of Israel and the house of Judah in the blood of Jesus as made with the church (Hebrews 9:15), the Israel of God (Galatians 6:16).
EVERY example you have given is of one that YOU INTERPRET to mean that "the church" is "Israel." not even ONE of that SAYS it.
 
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Biblewriter

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Many insist that the Bible calls “the church,” “the Israel of God.” But what does the Bible actually say about this? This term, “the Israel of God,” occurs only once in the entire Bible. And in that one place we read, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.” (Galatians 6:15-16)

Now the people who say this means that “the church” is “the Israel of God,” correctly point out that the “rule” referred to here is that “in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.” And they correctly point out that “as many as walk according to this rule” obviously means real Christians, So they are obviously correct in concluding that the clause “as many as walk according to this rule” refers to “the church.” But they make a serious error when they argue that the rest of this passage calls this group “the Israel of God.”

For, instead of calling “as many as walk according to this rule,” “the Israel of God,” this scripture clearly refers to “as many as walk according to this rule” and “the Israel of God” as two different groups. We see this in what it says about them. For it first says, “as many as walk according to this rule, peace and mercy be upon them.” and then it says “and upon the Israel of God.”

For the purpose of the current discussion, the key words here are the word “upon,” followed by the words “and upon.” The doubling of the word “upon,” which is the Greek word επι, epi in our alphabet, (word number 1909 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) in and by itself indicates that these are two different groups. But this is clenched by the word “and,” which ai placed between them. In the Greek, this is the word και, kai in our alphabet, word number 2532 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary, which translates literally as the word “and.”

The basic, essential, meaning of the word “and” is completely different from the words, “which are.” if it had said, “which are the Israel of God,” then the meaning would indeed be as these people think ths means. But that is not what it says. It says “and upon the Israel of God.”

This Greek word kai occurs 9275 times in The New Testament, and in our translations, it is almost always rendered as “and.” But those that want to believe that this passage means that “the church” is “the Israel of God,” argue that kai is sometimes translated as “even.” While this is correct, in almost all cases, this translation as the word “even” is used in the sense of “as far as,” not on the sense of “that is.” A typical example of this is when, after Jesus had stilled the storm when their boat was about to sink, the disciples “marveled, saying, ‘Who can this be, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?’ ” (Matthew 8:27) There are a very few exceptions to this rule, but they total less than once for every thousand times the word kai occurs in the Greek text of the New Testament. But we need to examine how the various translations rendered the clause in question.

We have examined the NJKV rendition of the clause, “and upon the Israel of God.” This basic meaning was given by all the well known translations that strove for accuracy. The KJV renders it identically to the NKJV, as do the ASV, the ESV, the NASB, the NRSV, the Douay-Rheims Version, the Darby translation, and the Wesley New Testament. The Young’s Literal translation, the Bible in Basic English, and the Montgomery translation change the word “upon” to “on.” And the Weymouth New Testament renders this clause as “and to the true Israel of God.” That is, every translation that attempted to reproduce what The Bible actually said, rather that what the translators thought that meant, gave basically the same meaning as the NKJV, which we are using. The only so-called “translations” that render this clause as these people want to interpret it are the “paraphrased” versions and the so-called “equivalence” translations. That is, alleged “translations” that are really based largely on the opinions of the “translators” rather that solely on the actual Bible texts in ther original languages.

So there is no basis for claiming that Galatians 6:18 calls “the church,” “the Israel of God.”
 
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