The Warped World of Incel Extremists

bèlla · Sep 5, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Right I was explaining why we remained friends after an attempt at a more serious relationship failed. I knew when to quit, and I don't consider her an "option" after that

That played a part in its continuance.

I get that some guys do that, kind of see if maybe she'll change her mind later if you just keep in contact distance...no I write off romance and would prefer have a friend than just be estranged.

That's the type I'm referencing. They're waiting for an opportunity.

MehGuy · Sep 5, 2021

ThisIsMe123 said:
I saw another woman offer a woman co-worker a hug when she was feeling down. I thought about chiming in in "I could use a hug, too!" Then realized the double standard that it would be weird if a man did it.

I am not so sure about this being a "double standard" at least in the negative sense. Sexual attraction changes things. It is weird or at the very least suspect if a man asks for a hug, especially from a young pretty woman. I'd guess if one of the women in a group of female friends was gay many of the other women would rightfully be hesitant about being platonically affectionate with her.

ThisIsMe123 said:
Yeah, it's like women going to the bathroom together or braiding each other's hair. lol. I recall one guy saying he was going to the bathroom, and another guy chimed in and said he was going too...and the first guy said, "No way man, that's gay...I'm going to the other bathroom" (on the other side of the building) LOL

Wow, that's pathetic on their part. Thankfully I have not come across many grown men who are that insecure about their heterosexuality. Sometimes I get flack for drinking a "girly" drink on occasion during parties by other men, but it's usually mockery in good spirit.

I have no interest in hugging other men and this is not due to any insecurity about my sexuality. It's just the way I and many other men are hardwired. Evolutionarily it makes sense for men to evolve to be more stoic and less empathetic than women. The reality is men take on more of a 'parental' role with women and society in general. Men need to be less empathetic because it is more advantageous for protecting and providing. For example when a building is raging in flames a person more likely to dart in will be the person who is less emotionally empathetic towards the victims. On the contrary someone who feels more for the victims are prone to freaking out and being unable to deal with the situation.

Sadly these days men receive a lot of flack for not being as emotional as women, and often labeled toxic for being so. When in reality it is probably just in our nature, a different way of showing love. Sometimes less is more.

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2021

bèlla said:
That played a part in its continuance.

That's the type I'm referencing. They're waiting for an opportunity.

Well, as you said, singleness is harder on men, our needs go unmet, and society expects us to just shut up and bear it stoically.
It creates desperation, depression, and a lot of bad coping mechanisms (and a rather high suicide rate).. which when you boil down these incel lashouts.. they are virtually all suicides, with accompanying murders.
We only hear about the murderous ones but how many of them have just hung themselves or shot themselves at home?

It is ultimately not good for the man to be alone. (Genesis 2:18)

bèlla · Sep 5, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Well, as you said, singleness is harder on men, our needs go unmet, and society expects us to just shut up and bear it stoically.

I don't think you should be silent. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging your desire for a companion or your loneliness. I don't believe in wallowing for either. Anything you feed will grow. You have to redirect your thoughts and put companionship in its rightful place. Not on a pedestal or an idol.

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2021

bèlla said:
I don't think you should be silent. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging your desire for a companion or your loneliness. I don't believe in wallowing for either. Anything you feed will grow. You have to redirect your thoughts and put companionship in its rightful place. Not on a pedestal or an idol.

Someone thirsty begs for water, someone hungry begs for food. An unmet need tends to take precedence over things that you have.

dzheremi · Sep 5, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Someone thirsty begs for water, someone hungry begs for food. An unmet need tends to take precedence over things that you have.

This is why there is a certain sort of sobriety in more monastically-inclined kinds of Christianity, in recognition of what the Desert Fathers and Mothers and other luminaries call "the passions" -- those needs that take precedence over what we have. And truly we have everything in Christ, so that even solitude is transformed into a pillar that we are strengthened by, when we direct our minds, souls, and bodies to the purification of all our desires (cf. "to the pure, everything is pure").

It's not that wanting companionship is impure, or wrong, or anything like that, but that fixating on the passions such that they control you is something to be fought against in ascetical struggle.

Like in these prayers from the midnight praises in the Egyptian Orthodox Christian tradition:

"...grant us sobriety, O Lord, that we may know how to stand before You at times of prayer"

Or, as a friend from church put it when I (jokingly) said I had really joined the wrong communion if I were looking for a wife (because it is common for Copts to ask non-Coptic converts like me who in the community we're married to; they haven't quite caught on in some places to the fact that not everyone joins through marriage), since we can only marry within the communion (Copts, Armenians, Syriac Orthodox, Orthodox Tewahedo East Africans, etc.), we don't follow Christ to get a wife. We follow Christ because He is our God, and we don't leave Him for a romance.

It's an extremely tall order, of course, but millions of people do it (and not only among the Orthodox; that's just what I personally know). I'm not going to pretend I've always been perfect in this area, or even that I'm perfect in it now (it's definitely a process of learning how to redirect your thoughts, as Bèlla put it), but it's still what we are called to do, as obedient servants of the Lord who are to love Him before all others.

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2021

dzheremi said:
This is why there is a certain sort of sobriety in more monastically-inclined kinds of Christianity, in recognition of what the Desert Fathers and Mothers and other luminaries call "the passions" -- those needs that take precedence over what we have. And truly we have everything in Christ, so that even solitude is transformed into a pillar that we are strengthened by, when we direct our minds, souls, and bodies to the purification of all our desires (cf. "to the pure, everything is pure").

It's not that wanting companionship is impure, or wrong, or anything like that, but that fixating on the passions such that they control you is something to be fought against in ascetical struggle.

Like in these prayers from the midnight praises in the Egyptian Orthodox Christian tradition:

"...grant us sobriety, O Lord, that we may know how to stand before You at times of prayer"

Or, as a friend from church put it when I (jokingly) said I had really joined the wrong communion if I were looking for a wife (because it is common for Copts to ask non-Coptic converts like me who in the community we're married to; they haven't quite caught on in some places to the fact that not everyone joins through marriage), since we can only marry within the communion (Copts, Armenians, Syriac Orthodox, Orthodox Tewahedo East Africans, etc.), we don't follow Christ to get a wife. We follow Christ because He is our God, and we don't leave Him for a romance.

It's an extremely tall order, of course, but millions of people do it (and not only among the Orthodox; that's just what I personally know). I'm not going to pretend I've always been perfect in this area, or even that I'm perfect in it now (it's definitely a process of learning how to redirect your thoughts, as Bèlla put it), but it's still what we are called to do, as obedient servants of the Lord who are to love Him before all others.

Yeah well.. will I die because of this unmet need?
no
but I'm not happy and constantly feel like something is missing.
and the only conclusion I can come up with is God cares about me being holy, not happy.

bèlla · Sep 5, 2021

Jamdoc said:
Someone thirsty begs for water, someone hungry begs for food. An unmet need tends to take precedence over things that you have.

It depends on your wiring. Immersing myself in lack would foster despondency and depression. It doesn’t bring what’s missing. I acquire new problems. I see no upside in that.

~bella

Jamdoc · Sep 5, 2021

bèlla said:
It depends on your wiring. Immersing myself in lack would foster despondency and depression. It doesn’t bring what’s missing. I acquire new problems. I see no upside in that.

~bella

If the unmet need isn't met, it doesn't matter what you try to distract yourself with, it's still unmet and has consequences.

bèlla · Sep 5, 2021

Jamdoc said:
If the unmet need isn't met, it doesn't matter what you try to distract yourself with, it's still unmet and has consequences.

I understand unmet needs. Two diseases cost me the career I wanted and forced me to leave a job I loved. No amount of crying would change that. I refuse to live in misery. I understand fat and lean. It’s a concept more should grasp. They’d be happier.

Lain Iwakura · Sep 6, 2021

bèlla said:
I don't think you should be silent. There's nothing wrong with acknowledging your desire for a companion or your loneliness. I don't believe in wallowing for either. Anything you feed will grow. You have to redirect your thoughts and put companionship in its rightful place. Not on a pedestal or an idol.

Almost every institution in society is designed to make sure silence is necessary to survive. There are no resources available for the voiceless. If you are not silent, then you will be a target and you will be beaten to the ground.

"He who makes a beast out of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man." - Samuel Johnson

Lain Iwakura · Sep 6, 2021

"The person running amok doesn't always choose his target consciously. With his urge for spectacular publicity he is sometimes trying to correct an imbalance. Through the act of killing, he or she compensates their own lack of celebrity of importance. By the end of the twentieth century, man has come to feel that he no longer has to endure everything. No longer does he accept miseries and disasters with the stoicism of a cow standing in the rain. He has come to feel, that he deserves justice and a degree of consideration as an individual. Where in the past he was passive, modern man has become reactive, therefore even a person nauseated by life, the potential suicide, doesn't only think of a quiet escape through the backdoor. Cheated by life, this creature is trying to give a final signal, to give its life a post-humous meaning by its way of dying. The frustration about its own existence and its neglect by a callously progressive society manifests itself in this universal act of vengeance. The Amok-suicide seems to aim at all those who always ignored him. For once HE is making history he is standing in the limelight and finally people are interested in his biography. He escapes a "dead" life into a "living" death, knowing that, at least for a few days, he will have the almost undivided attention of the general public. This absurd hope is probably more authentic and genuine than his whole virtually non-existent life before. He, the "motiveless-mass-murderer" is the martyr of Post-modernism." - Jörg Buttgereit (circa 1990)

bèlla · Sep 6, 2021

There has never been a point in my life when murder was the answer or crossed my thoughts. No period when lowliness and lack brought me to that place. I have never felt my pain was so grievous or important that others deserved the same.

The world is full of people living in spite of their circumstances. They have vibrant relationships, careers, and marriages in spite of their adversity. They’re survivors.

Their determination, outlook, and can-do spirit is the difference between apathy and happy endings. We may not have the things we seek but we control our response.

Memorable is the one with troubles whose spirit is light and pleasant. You want to be around them. That’s why they find partners despite their shortcomings and maladies. People look beyond it because they do.

Lain Iwakura · Sep 6, 2021

bèlla said:
There has never been a point in my life when murder was the answer or crossed my thoughts. No period when lowliness and lack brought me to that place. I have never felt my pain was so grievous or important that others deserved the same.

The world is full of people living in spite of their circumstances. They have vibrant relationships, careers, and marriages in spite of their adversity. They’re survivors.

Their determination, outlook, and can-do spirit is the difference between apathy and happy endings. We may not have the things we seek but we control our response.

Memorable is the one with troubles whose spirit is light and pleasant. You want to be around them. That’s why they find partners despite their shortcomings and maladies. People look beyond it because they do.

In the discussion of phenomena, one's own sentiments in regard to praxis and solutions isn't particularly relevant. I, as one removed, speak only of phenomenon.

But, we have limited control over our responses, which is mathematically predetermined and scientifically outlined. There is only input and output. If you control input, you control output, because the mechanism of control is inherent to any system - machine or animal. This, the basic principle of Cybernetics - the truly mathematical proof of the existence of natures - is the governing principle of all societies.

A person with negative thoughts can never alter or escape from those thoughts without necessarily external inputs. Memorable may be the one 'with troubles whose spirit is light and pleasant,' but these are learned behavior and the one who has not learned them, whom none wants to be around, cannot learn the behavior for the reason that none wants to be around.

And those who distance themselves by those so removed from humanity do so out of a lack of charity, acknowledging that the sheep lost from the fold is not worth saving, because it is lost from the fold.

In this, that you don't understand the drive of the natural born killer, is from a lack of an empathy able to see the world through their fish-lens and their life from their shoes. For it is by their very existence outside the humane environment that they exist outside of empathy, and being outside of empathy are outside the humane environment that could save them.

What should the suicide do when even his cause for suicide is misunderstood and the knowledge that it is misunderstood even that there is a misunderstanding?

Lain Iwakura · Sep 6, 2021

TheWhat? said:
Not all cultures developed in exactly the same way. Some adopted arranged marriages to tame the violence. Monogamy is a similar strategy that achieves some kind of balance in society. Jews had both.

No, 'Jews,' as in Rabbinical Judaism, were generally polygamous until the 11th century and the practice didn't die off until probably the 14th century.

TheWhat? said:
If you really want to be realistic, if social change is not an option, forced castration, warfare to kill off males, abortions of male fetuses, or maybe eventually genetic modification.

The entire politic of the Church is opposed to this. None have the right to enact the laws of demons. And those that do suffer the punishment of demons.

bèlla · Sep 6, 2021

Lain Iwakura said:
But, we have limited control over our responses, which is mathematically predetermined and scientifically outlined.

I disagree. What you're suggesting is unbiblical. If we get a pass on control there's no need to repent. We can't help it.

And those who distance themselves by those so removed from humanity do so out of a lack of charity, acknowledging that the sheep lost from the fold is not worth saving, because it is lost from the fold.

You keep company with the marginalized? Murderers, rapists, etc. What have you learned from them?

In this, that you don't understand the drive of the natural born killer, is from a lack of an empathy able to see the world through their fish-lens and their life from their shoes. For it is by their very existence outside the humane environment that they exist outside of empathy, and being outside of empathy are outside the humane environment that could save them.

Is this something you've read or experienced through relationship or ministry? I doubt the majority understand "natural born killers."

What should the suicide do when even his cause for suicide is misunderstood and the knowledge that it is misunderstood even that there is a misunderstanding?

God made doctors and therapists for a reason. They're equipped to deal with their sickness on the level they require. Theory is nice. But if you've never been on the other side of the desk hearing intimate confessions you're speaking from supposition.

And if you don't have a file you're reliant on their admissions. They don't tell everything. I'm curious how you acquired this knowledge.

Society isn't privy to the inner workings of violent people or suicidal types for that matter. A segment is. But the majority are clueless.

Lain Iwakura · Sep 6, 2021

bèlla said:
I disagree. What you're suggesting is unbiblical. If we get a pass on control there's no need to repent. We can't help it.

Wrong. Nothing I said is unbiblical, indeed, it is biblical - as the concepts I describe are ubiquitous in ancient culture. Nobody in antiquity, including St. Paul who elaborates quite a lot using these topics in the epistles to the Corinthians - the stream of consciousness is not the person at all. Thoughts can be of almost any origin. The Greeks knew if they were in the woods with their lover and passionful thoughts overcame them that these thoughts were from the spirits of the woods and not from themselves. Any thought may be of demonic origin rather than originating in the soul of the person.

Repentence takes place at the point of perception, before thought. It is this reason why Christain contemplation is the prayer of the single thought, leading to the prayer of the heart which is a state apart from thought.

And the Elder Thaddeus of Vitovnica, who in turn lived through three genocides, also specifically confirmed it as shown in Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives, which read in the communal understand of the Church, the Our there is not the individualistic I of the west, as many westerners would attempt to interpret it in their reading - that the damaged person suffering from evil thoughts can only be healed in a community that originates good thoughts.

And as I said before, these things are mathematically known.

bèlla said:
You keep company with the marginalized? Murderers, rapists, etc. What have you learned from them?

The margins are all things which do not fit in the coherent systems of the world, and there are murderers and rapists, like Epstein and Gacy, who form a part of the system of this world - connected to it and essential to the holding the system together.

I have a dog's head. I am of the margin itself. I am removed and exist on the outside.

My patron Saint, if indeed, I have one.

The female person intrinsically is of the receptive sex. Being of the receptive sex, the female was known by the pagans to be a suitable vessel for the spirits - and thus the role of the priestess as the vessel of the Gods.

But the male occultist, desiring to become a purveyor of powers must become like the female and be used thusly. By this means did Crowley become possessed by Chorozon. And similarly I was raised to be a vessel.

I write this under the influence of a spirit.

Evil is not like darkness, but like unlight. It has a form and substance and can be interacted with and known directly.

bèlla said:
Is this something you've read or experienced through relationship or ministry? I doubt the majority understand "natural born killers."

All the above. I've exhausted most of the clinical research. I've always had relationship, unavoidably, with people so evil as to foil human comprehension - the average person being in contact with these people are charmed and do not remember the evil done. Evil that causes the plants to wilt and not to grow.

bèlla said:
God made doctors and therapists for a reason. They're equipped to deal with their sickness on the level they require. Theory is nice. But if you've never been on the other side of the desk hearing intimate confessions you're speaking from supposition.

I work with some such people in employ to the government. I correspond to others.

bèlla said:
And if you don't have a file you're reliant on their admissions. They don't tell everything. I'm curious how you acquired this knowledge.

Direct epistemic access.

For the unlearned: Epistemic privilege - Wikipedia

bèlla said:
Society isn't privy to the inner workings of violent people or suicidal types for that matter. A segment is. But the majority are clueless.

The Eastern Orthodox Church has the only program in North America for integrating such people into parish life.

Larniavc · Sep 6, 2021

MehGuy said:
I guess I might count among those men who are attracted to women who wear a lot of makeup. Depends on the makeup routine/skill, but generally I find it gives off a feminine vibe. Exaggerates and helps bring out neotenous features in a way nature alone really cannot. Of course I wouldn't want to be with someone who looks ugly without makeup, but as an enhancer.. yeah I prefer it.

I’m the opposite. I find make up unattractive. My wife never wears make up and she looks great.

On an unrelated note I love your avatar.

Tom 1 · Sep 6, 2021

bèlla said:
Inside the Warped World of Incel Extremists

Jake Davison shot two women, two men and the three-year-old girl in a deadly six-minute spree.

In trying to understand what prompted a man in Plymouth, England to commit the worst mass shooting in the UK for over a decade, attention has turned to his apparent links with the incel community – an online subculture of people who describe themselves as “involuntary celibates".

Jake Davison allegedly shot his mother before a shooting spree which ended when he turned the gun on himself. His youngest victim was three years old. In the lead-up to the attacks, he compared himself to incels in YouTube videos and contributed to their forums.

He uploaded videos in which he fixated on his virginity and, in a direct reference to incel ideology, Davison's described himself as “blackpilled". This means that he believed himself too old, at 22, to find love.

What is an Incel?

Incels refuse to accept responsibility for their circumstances, instead believing their inability to attract women makes them victims of oppression. Like all groups under the umbrella of online misogyny known as the “manosphere", they subscribe to the “red pill" conspiracy theory. They believe men are the true victims of gendered oppression, that male power has been usurped, and that feminism is a front to disguise men's subjugation.

Incels essentialise this conspiracy in the idea of the “black pill". To swallow the black pill is to accept that this oppression is insurmountable. It invokes a certain hopelessness. Incels believe there is nothing they can ever do to improve their lives.

Incels believe in a genetically essentialist social hierarchy. At the apex are “chads" – hyper-athletic attractive males who women desire instinctively. Beneath them are descending classes of “betas". At the lowermost point are incels, whose innate characteristics make them unable to attract women. Height-cels say they are too short; skull and frame-cels blame their skeletal structure; wrist-cels believe their wrists are too thin; and there are many more delineations. Incels cannot accept responsibility for their lot in life, instead spinning themselves as victims of their own biology and societal oppression.

Targeting Women

Incels blame women for this hierarchy and their low place within it. The culture portrays women as irrational and emotional creatures who are blindly pursuing the biological imperatives to seek sexual satisfaction and material security through marriage.

Incels believe women select different men for these functions, marrying an inferior “beta" for financial gain whilst cheating with “chads" for sexual gratification. To incels, women pursue their interests sociopathically and will not hesitate to harm men. A society dominated by women does the same and incels see their oppression as a natural consequence of women's malicious and inhuman nature.

Nowhere is this expressed more bizarrely than the widely held incel belief in the “dogpill". This is the view that women's drive for sexual satisfaction is such that they will routinely have sex with large dogs. Absurdity is the point here. Women are portrayed as so depraved that they are undeserving of rights and bodily autonomy.

Incels call for women to be stripped of their rights and be forced to serve as state-mandated girlfriends or held in concentration camps. Incels see themselves as the sexless victims of women's nature, and call for them to be contained or controlled accordingly.

The “black pill" refers to the oppression of incels at the hands of biologically malevolent women. In various online cultures, to take the black pill is to give up hope. And in incel culture specifically, it is to give up hope of ever having sex or a genuine romantic connection. Because they believe attractiveness is genetically determined, there is no hope for incels to rise in the hierarchy. They will be forever denied sex and happiness, and are doomed to be women's victims. Nihilistic despair and dogmatic hopelessness permeates incel communities and it is from this that violence flows.

Death and Violence

Given that the alternative is to languish in unceasing oppression, incel ideology legitimises violence against practically any target. Incel forums simultaneously glorify suicide whilst justifying extreme violence against women as a noble reaction to female domination. Violence is an ideological response; a means to punish women for their perceived crimes and reclaim what has been usurped. Incel ideology is necessarily violent because there is no hope, only revenge.

For some time, the wider world has instinctively dismissed what is, admittedly, a childish ideology based on crude stereotypes and nonsensical concepts. Sadly this is no longer an option. Plymouth is not the first shooting linked to incels. Californian Elliot Rodger, a self-described “kissless virgin," killed six in 2014 as “revenge" against those who denied him sex. Incel communities venerate Rodger as a saint to this day.

In Toronto, Canada, Alek Minassian was convicted of murdering ten people with a van in 2018. He hailed Rodger online minutes prior to the attack. Recent attacks in Canada, Arizona and Germany have also been linked to incels, while a planned attack in Ohio was discovered only days before Plymouth. There are many more examples, and some are calling for the Plymouth shooting to be classified as an act of terror.

Although not obviously political, incel ideology revolves around imagined subjugation, and violence is intended to have a far-reaching social impact. Rodger hoped to “deliver a devastating blow" that would shake women to “the core of their wicked hearts". Minassian fantasised of an “incel rebellion" that would overthrow the corrupt social order and return women to their proper place.

Few incels believe this is actually feasible, but allegiance to the principle motivates violence intended to strike at the social order and harm women as a distinct class. This is why the extreme violence of the incel community should be considered terrorism.

Incel terrorism has spiked over the last decade and there is every indication this community is growing. If this most recent attack was motivated by incel ideology, it was neither the first nor likely to be the last. For all their warped concepts and ideological incoherence, incels are becoming a threat we must take seriously.

—Courtesy of Raw Story

I suppose every human emotion finds its ultimate expression somewhere, and this seems to be the ultimate expression of self-pity. It's a kind of tribalism too maybe, if TV is anything to go by the US schooling system does seem quite cliquey - I mean all the movies and dramas based around the division into groups of nerds, jocks, emos etc that appears to be more accentuated over there. If that is true then I suppose it's inevitable that those people who don't fit any of the other groups are going to band together and reinforce each other's self pity and resentment.

RDKirk · Sep 6, 2021

Lain Iwakura said:
Almost every institution in society is designed to make sure silence is necessary to survive. There are no resources available for the voiceless. If you are not silent, then you will be a target and you will be beaten to the ground.

Those appear to be conflicting statements.

If there are no resources available for the voiceless, then the resources must be available for those with voice.

In that case, society designed to make sure voice is necessary to survive, and those with voice will win, rather than being beaten to the ground.

"The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

The Warped World of Incel Extremists

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