God is a God of Reason: Why Calvinism Fails

Old Lady said:

Why do think God doesn't eliminate Satan and hell? your arminian god doesn't save everyone.

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I’ll answer your question as soon as you answer mine.

C. H. Spurgeon:

You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say. But you have never heard an Arminian prayer, because the saints in prayer appear as one, in word, in deed, and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about his free will; there is no room for it.

Fancy his praying this way: “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like those presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will. I was born with power by which I can turn to thee myself. I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have done, they might all have been saved, Lord, I know that you do not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. You give grace to everybody. Some do not improve it, but I do. There are many who will go to hell as though bought by the blood of Christ as I was. They had as much of the Holy Spirit given to them. They had a good chance and were as blessed as I am. It was not your grace that made us to differ. I know that it did a great deal, still I turned the point. I made use of what was given to me, and others did not. That is the difference between me and them.”

Old Lady said:

C. H. Spurgeon:

You have heard a great many Arminian sermons, I dare say. But you have never heard an Arminian prayer, because the saints in prayer appear as one, in word, in deed, and mind. An Arminian on his knees would pray desperately like a Calvinist. He cannot pray about his free will; there is no room for it.

Fancy his praying this way: “Lord, I thank thee that I am not like those presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will. I was born with power by which I can turn to thee myself. I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have done, they might all have been saved, Lord, I know that you do not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves. You give grace to everybody. Some do not improve it, but I do. There are many who will go to hell as though bought by the blood of Christ as I was. They had as much of the Holy Spirit given to them. They had a good chance and were as blessed as I am. It was not your grace that made us to differ. I know that it did a great deal, still I turned the point. I made use of what was given to me, and others did not. That is the difference between me and them.”

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Yeah well I have to give more weight to the words of a 2 century theologian over a 19th century theologian when it comes to the subject of what the apostles taught in the early Church.

1. Man has received the knowledge of good and evil. It is good to obey God, and to believe in Him, and to keep His commandment, and this is the life of man; as not to obey God is evil, and this is his death. Since God, therefore, gave [to man] such mental power (magnanimitatem) man knew both the good of obedience and the evil of disobedience, that the eye of the mind, receiving experience of both, may with judgment make choice of the better things; and that he may never become indolent or neglectful of God's command; and learning by experience that it is an evil thing which deprives him of life, that is, disobedience to God, may never attempt it at all, but that, knowing that what preserves his life, namely, obedience to God, is good, he may diligently keep it with all earnestness. Wherefore he has also had a twofold experience, possessing knowledge of both kinds, that with discipline he may make choice of the better things. But how, if he had no knowledge of the contrary, could he have had instruction in that which is good? For there is thus a surer and an undoubted comprehension of matters submitted to us than the mere surmise arising from an opinion regarding them. For just as the tongue receives experience of sweet and bitter by means of tasting, and the eye discriminates between black and white by means of vision, and the ear recognises the distinctions of sounds by hearing; so also does the mind, receiving through the experience of both the knowledgeof what is good, become more tenacious of its preservation, by acting in obedience to God: in the first place, casting away, by means of repentance, disobedience, as being something disagreeable and nauseous; and afterwards coming to understand what it really is, that it is contrary to goodness and sweetness, so that the mind may never even attempt to taste disobedience to God. But if any one do shun the knowledge of both these kinds of things, and the twofold perception of knowledge, he unawares divests himself of the character of a human being.


2. How, then, shall he be a God, who has not as yet been made a man? Or how can he be perfect who was but lately created? How, again, can he be immortal, who in his mortal nature did not obey his Maker? For it must be that you, at the outset, should hold the rank of a man, and then afterwards partake of the glory of God. For you did not make God, but God you. If, then, you are God's workmanship, await the hand of your Maker which creates everything in due time; in due time as far as you are concerned, whose creation is being carried out. Offer to Him your heart in a soft and tractable state, and preserve the form in which the Creator has fashioned you, having moisture in yourself, lest, by becoming hardened, you lose the impressions of His fingers. But by preserving the framework you shall ascend to that which is perfect, for the moist clay which is in you is hidden [there] by the workmanship of God. His hand fashioned your substance; He will cover you over [too] within and without with pure gold and silver, and He will adorn you to such a degree, that even the King Himself shall have pleasure in your beauty. But if you, being obstinately hardened, reject the operation of His skill, and show yourself ungrateful towards Him, because you were created a [mere] man, by becoming thus ungrateful to God, you have at once lost both His workmanship and life. For creation is an attribute of the goodness of God but to be created is that of human nature. If then, you shall deliver up to Him what is yours, that is, faith towards Him and subjection, you shall receive His handiwork, and shall be a perfect work of God.


3. If, however, you will not believe in Him, and will flee from His hands, the cause of imperfection shall be in you who did not obey, but not in Him who called [you]. For He commissioned [messengers] to call people to the marriage, but they who did not obey Him deprived themselves of the royal supper. Matthew 22:3, etc. The skill of God, therefore, is not defective, for He has power of the stones to raise up children to Abraham; Matthew 3:9but the man who does not obtain it is the causeto himself of his own imperfection. Nor, [in like manner], does the light fail because of those who have blinded themselves; but while it remains the same as ever, those who are [thus] blinded are involved in darkness through their own fault. The light does never enslave any one by necessity; nor, again, does God exercise compulsion upon any one unwilling to accept the exercise of His skill. Those persons, therefore, who have apostatized from the light given by the Father, and transgressed the law of liberty, have done so through their own fault, since they have been created free agents, and possessed of power over themselves.


4. But God, foreknowing all things, prepared fit habitations for both, kindly conferring that light which they desire on those who seek after the light of incorruption, and resort to it; but for the despisers and mockers who avoid and turn themselves away from this light, and who do, as it were, blind themselves, He has prepared darkness suitable to personswho oppose the light, and He has inflicted an appropriate punishment upon those who try to avoid being subject to Him. Submission to God is eternal rest, so that they who shun the light have a place worthy of their flight; and those who fly from eternal rest, have a habitation in accordance with their fleeing. Now, since all good things are with God, they who by their own determination fly from God, do defraud themselves of all good things; and having been [thus] defrauded of all good things with respect to God, they shall consequently fall under the just judgment of God. For those persons who shun rest shall justly incur punishment, and those who avoid the light shall justly dwell in darkness. For as in the case of this temporal light, those who shun it do deliver themselves over to darkness, so that they do themselves become the cause to themselves that they are destitute of light, and do inhabit darkness; and, as I have already observed, the light is not the cause of such an [unhappy] condition of existence to them; so those who fly from the eternal light of God, which contains in itself all good things, are themselves the cause to themselves of their inhabiting eternal darkness, destitute of all goodthings, having become to themselves the cause of [their consignment to] an abode of that nature.

St Iranaeus 170AD Adversus Haereses Book 4 Chapter 39

I think it’s amazing how Iranaeus refuted Calvin’s doctrines 1300 years before Calvin was even born. Evidently this subject already came up thru the Gnostics and was put to rest by the Church.

I think it's amazing that God was teaching Calvin things that Iranaeus didn't understand!

Why do you pray for sinners? Either God takes away their free will so they will have faith or they don't need your prayers.

Arminians teach that there is prevenient grace, yet they also teach that the human will can thwart the plans of God. God's will is done regardless of the will of man. Do you end your prayers "thy will be done" or "my will be done?"

Before Iranaeus was born, the word of God revealed:
Job 42:2
“I know that you can do all things; no purpose of yours can be thwarted."

Old Lady said:

Why do you pray for sinners? Either God takes away their free will so they will have faith or they don't need your prayers.

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So your saying that prayers of supplication are worthless?

“Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus.”
‭‭Philippians‬ ‭4:6-7‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Old Lady said:

Arminians teach that there is prevenient grace, yet they also teach that the human will can thwart the plans of God.

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I’m not an Arminian I’m a semi-Pelagianist. Can you give an example of how they teach that humans can thwart the plans of God?

Old Lady said:

I think it's amazing that God was teaching Calvin things that Iranaeus didn't understand!

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So God was teaching Calvin things that were contrary to the early church teachings? So the church was wrong for 1800 years until “apostle Calvin” came along to set everything straight. I’ve already proven that your theology contradicts what the scriptures actually say. Like our little discussion about Romans 2:4-5. Paul says God was leading these people to repentance and your explanation was that He wasn’t. That’s a DIRECT contradiction to what Paul said. What concerns me is that even after I pointed this out to you, you still refuse to accept what Paul said as being the truth. Your showing that your doctrines take priority over what the Bible actually says and that you refuse to alter your doctrines to reconcile them with the scriptures. There is only one truth in the word of God and it is not subjective to interpretation. You can say “well I don’t believe that” but that doesn’t make your beliefs correct if they directly contradict the word of God.

Old Lady said:

Do you end your prayers "thy will be done" or "my will be done?"

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No I end my prayers with “in Jesus name I pray, amen”, but when I ask for things I do often pray “if it be your will Lord”.

Hammster said:

Do you pray for the lost? If so, what are you asking God to do that He’s not already doing?

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I’m asking Him to call them and draw them to Christ.

Hammster said:

So He’s not doing that until you pray for them?

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I don’t know. I didn’t know I was being called to Christ until after I turned to Him. God had pushed me into a corner of hard times where the only way out was thru Him. At the time it was happening I didn’t realize it, not until later after I came to Christ did I understand what He was doing.

Hammster said:

That’s an answer to a different question. Maybe look at it this way. If Christ really died for everyone, wouldn’t it be His responsibility to ensure that everyone is called and drawn? And if so, why pray that He does it? It would seem that He’s doing it anyway.

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No it’s an answer to the question you asked. Paul thought that it could be beneficial to pray for people’s salvation.

“Brethren, my heart’s desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Hammster said:

If Christ really died for everyone, wouldn’t it be His responsibility to ensure that everyone is called and drawn? And if so, why pray that He does it? It would seem that He’s doing it anyway.

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Yes but I also pray that God have mercy on my loved ones who have died which could also be a useless prayer. It’s just done out of concern and compassion.

BNR32FAN said:

Yeah well I have to give more weight to the words of a 2 century theologian over a 19th century theologian when it comes to the subject of what the apostles taught in the early Church.

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The early Church? Which 2nd century denomination are you talking about?

You, no doubt, know that there were theologians in the second century that didn't agree with Iranaeus; and do you believe there is any person in this century that can know right from wrong?

BNR32FAN said:

No I end my prayers with “in Jesus name I pray, amen”, but when I ask for things I do often pray “if it be your will Lord”.

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Are there times you don't trust God to know who He ought to bring to Christ or that He might overlook certain people because you didn't pray?

Old Lady said:

The early Church? Which 2nd century denomination are you talking about?

You, no doubt, know that there were theologians in the second century that didn't agree with Iranaeus; and do you believe there is any person in this century that can know right from wrong?

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Really? Like who?