The Times We Live in...

d taylor said:

Mary was not a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people.

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Mary was the mother of a one-cell living human xygote; i.e., her fertilized egg, which developed into a multi-celled embryo.

It was her seed and God's seed that Jesus came from.

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Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam, she came from his rib, not his seed.

As in the human order, gender (maleness, femaleness) is determined by the male,
so in God's genealogical order, descent ("Adamness") is determined by the male,
it is not determined by the female, as is seen in the laws governed by genealogy.

Jesus was not generated from the seed of man, but the seed of God, as are we in the new birth
(John 1:13; 1 Peter 2:23).

Clare73 said:

Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam.

As in the human order, maleness and femaleness are determined by the male,
so "Adamness" (descent from Adam) is determined by the male.

In God's order, Adamness (fallen nature), like gender, is determined by the male,
it is not determined by the female, as is seen in the laws governed by genealogy.

Jesus was not generated from the seed of man, but the seed of God, as are we in the new birth (John 1:13; 1 Peter 2:23).

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And your point of highlighting my post and telling me this.

I ask this because it sounds like you are trying to say that is was saying that Jesus came from the seed of Adam. If that is the case you need to read what i wrote again.

misput said:

Says Clare as she tries to defend her doctrine of sin cursed babies : )

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Like snake-cursed rattlesnakes--it's who we are, fallen and condemned (Romans 5:18),
by (fallen) nature objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

Your issue is with the NT, not me.

If Jesus had a sinless human nature His temptation was a farce but He was tempted in all points just as we and resisted, overpowered, overcame, was without sin etc, etc, etc : )

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Are you serious?

A sinful nature, by definition, is not "without sin," which sin is called "original sin," the sin you are born with (Romans 5:18), by nature an object of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).

God (John 1:1, 14) was sinful? !!!
You don't dare enter heaven with the stain of sin, if you do not want to be evaporated by God's wrath.
That's why Jesus had to die so that we could.
And now God has joined himself to sin!

And you think Satan's offer, as prince of this world, to give it all to Jesus instead of Jesus having to win it back from him on the cross to accomplish God's purpose, would not be a temptation?

WOW!

The NT presents otherwise.

misput said:

Of course Eve was not, Don't you mean Mary was not generated from the seed of Adam? Luke 3: seems to disagree.

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No, we have no Biblical basis for that, only Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam, she came from his rib, not his seed.

In Genesis 3:15 God seems to disagree. Eve was fallen when God told her Jesus would come through her seed.

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It's not about fallen, it's about determination of descendancy from Adam.

Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam.

As in God's human order, gender (maleness, femaleness) is determined by the male,
so in God's genealogicial order, descent ("Adamness") is likewise determined by the male.

As seen in God's laws governed by genealogy, descent from Adam (Adamness, fallen nature), like gender, is determined by (descended from) the male, it is not determined by the female.

Jesus was not generated from the seed of Adam (because his father, God, was not descended from Adam), Jesus was generated from the seed of God, as are we in the new birth (John 1:13; 1 Peter 2:23).

So Mary' egg was not utilized??? All she contributed was the hatching?

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misput said:

Just noticed

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Could I talk you into aiming before you shoot?

you are admitting Jesus did receive His human nature from Mary but not the fallen nature, the reborn nature like we have where sin is no longer credited to us but He Being God in the flesh literally did not sin even though He was tempted the same as we because He had the fleshly nature.

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If you are using "fleshly" in the sense of Paul; i.e., fallen sinful, then you are in error regarding Jesus.

If you are using "fleshly" in the sense of Adam before he fell, then we are in agreement.

Now that makes more sense than what I previously thought you were saying. Now I need to clear up something else. Do you believe babies come into the world lost and if they die while infants or young children end up in hell? If you do, please explain how you came to that conclusion?

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I believe Romans 5:18, that everyone comes into the world lost (condemned), and by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and
I believe Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11 that those who are predestined are saved eventually and, therefore conclude, if unborn or new babies die while infants or young children, they will go where God has predestined them to be.

JohnD70X7 said:

Me thinks you misunderstood the OP.
The universe for one displays how much greater God is than we ever knew.
Secondly, I was showing how we understand surrogate pregnancy in humans to give us some idea of how God did it with the virgin Mary (the Holy Spirit placing in her womb the embryo God the Father created entirely who God the Word became in the incarnation).

Hopefully this clears up any misunderstandings.

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But life beings at conception with the fertilization of the egg by the sperm (seed), resulting in a living human (one-cell) zygote, prior to the embroyo (multi-cellular).

Placing the embryo (already fertilized egg and in the process of developing into a human body) in Mary's womb bypasses fertilization of Mary's egg in the womb with the seed of God, which seed made Jesus divine as well as human.

Scripture continually uses "seed" to describe both our generation (Mark 12:19-22; Galatians 3:16) and our regeneration (1 Peter 1:23; 1 John 3:9).

d taylor said:

And your point of highlighting my post and telling me this.

I ask this because it sounds like you are trying to say that is was saying that Jesus came from the seed of Adam. If that is the case you need to read what i wrote again.

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No, I was just offering a more full explanation of Jesus not descending from Adam,
. . .and of his origin as a zygote, rather than an embryo.

FaithWillDo said:

* * *
"The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Yom). * * *

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The word "yom" does occur in Micah 5:2 but it is NOT translated eternal. Either your "spiritual discernment" is leading you in error or your "teachers"/"pastors" are.
I am certain that the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 225 BC Septuagint [LXX] knew the correct meaning of the Hebrew words.
מימי “from [the] days”

FaithWillDo said:

* * *
1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
* * *

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Your next major error is this out-of-context quote from 1 Cor. This verse does NOT refer to the works of all mankind as you presume. Where does the Bible ever say that men will be saved by their works?
This entire passage is addressed to a specific group God's fellow workers. God's field, God's building." Those who build on the foundation of Christ. vs. 10, 11, 12
Not the ordinary, mundane works of all mankind but the works of Christian believers building on the foundation of Christ
Note NOT the mundane, ordinary works of sinners but the works of Christians building on the foundation of Christ. If the work survives "gold, silver, precious stones" vs. 12.
Man is NEVER saved by ordinary, mundane works. Man is NEVER saved by fire. It reads "as if through fire."
Note vs. 15 does not say all sinful mankind will be saved, by fire, no matter what. This passage concludes with saying anyone who destroys God's temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

Der Alte said:

The word "yom" does occur in Micah 5:2 but it is NOT translated eternal. Either you spiritual discernment is leading you in error or you "teachers"/"pastors" are.

225 BC LXX Micah 5:2​

2 And thou, Bethleem, house of Ephratha, art few in number to be reckoned among the thousands of Juda; yet out of thee shall one come forth to me, to be a ruler of Israel; and his goings forth were from the beginning, even from eternity.
Mic 5:2 (5:1) ואתה בית־לחם אפרתה צעיר להיות באלפי יהודה ממך לי יצא להיות מושׁל בישׂראל ומוצאתיו מקדם מימי עולם׃
מימי “from [the] days”
H5769 עלם עולם ‛ôlâm ‛ôlâm o-lawm', o-lawm'
From H5956; properly concealed, that is, the vanishing point; generally time out of mind (past or future), that is, (practically) eternity; frequentative adverbially (especially with prepositional prefix) always: - always (-s), ancient (time), any more, continuance, eternal, (for, [n-]) ever (-lasting, -more, of old), lasting, long (time), (of) old (time), perpetual, at any time, (beginning of the) world (+ without end). Compare H5331, H5703.

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Dear Der Alte,
The correct translation of Micah 5:2 is from the ESV:

Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.

As I said earlier, there is no single Greek or Hebrew word which means "eternal", "eternity" or "everlasting". Translators changed the meaning of "olam" centuries ago to accommodate the doctrines of the church. Scripture only teaches about the "ages".

Also, I do not have any teachers or a pastor. I no longer attend any place called a "church" because the "wolves" are in control of them. The churches are "of this world" and none of them teach the truth. They are places where the spirit of anti-Christ rules and the blind lead the blind. This happened shortly after the Apostles died. I can only imagine how sad Paul and the others were when Christ revealed to them what was about to happen to the churches they started.

Here is how it happened:

Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of our carnal nature. It prefers the Old Covenant of Law (man's works) rather than the New Covenant of Grace through faith:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Satan takes advantage of this weakness and deceives all Called Out believers shortly after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. Satan feeds them His stones and leavened bread which causes them to mix faith and works. When a believer does this, they "fall away" and become a Man of Sin. This is the sin that leads to death and it is how Satan "kills the saints".

Once that sin is committed, the believer cannot be renewed by repentance. The ONLY solution is for Christ to come to them a second time. However, He only comes a second time to His chosen Elect. Upon His appearance to them, He gives them the Latter Rain (Baptism of the Holy Spirit) and heals their spiritual blindness. Because of these gifts of Christ, they hear Christ's call to come out of Mystery Babylon:

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

Mystery Babylon the Great is what allows Satan to easily deceive us and have us turn to works for our salvation. It is pleasing to the religious aspect of our carnal nature.

Because we all have Mystery Babylon within us, we cannot be saved until she is destroyed. She is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's appearance. This happens after the chosen believer's spiritual blindness is healed and the scriptures open up to them. From their new ability to understand the truth of scripture, Christ "appears" to them and the truth of His appearance destroys the Man of Sin along with the religious component of their carnal nature (Mystery Babylon).

This is how Revelation describes her destruction:

Rev 18:19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.

After this event, a new child of God is born.

Salvation only comes to us by faith alone in Christ and that faith is knowing and trusting Him to do all the work necessary for our salvation. Because our salvation is 100% the work of Christ, mankind's salvation is certain. Christ will not fail to save even one person.

Joe

FaithWillDo said:

Dear Der Alte,
The correct translation of Micah 5:2 is from the ESV:
Mic 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah,
from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days.
As I said earlier, there is no single Greek or Hebrew word which means "eternal", "eternity" or "everlasting". Translators changed the meaning of "olam" centuries ago to accommodate the doctrines of the church. Scripture only teaches about the "ages"....

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You do not know what you are talking about. You are evidently relying on your own understanding and interpreting scripture to fit your assumptions/presuppositions.
"olam" is translated "everlasting" sixty-seven times in the JPS. I'm certain that the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the 1917 JPS knew the meaning of the Hebrew word "olam." "Yom" is translated "eternal" 0 Zero times because it means "day."
.....Greek has been the language of the Eastern Orthodox Greek church for 2000+ years who better than the native Greek speaking scholars who translated the EOB know the meaning of Greek words.
Continue leaning on your own understanding.

Der Alte said:

Your next major error is this out-of-context quote from 1 Cor. This verse does NOT refer to the works of all mankind as you presume. Where does the Bible ever say that men will be saved by their works?

1 Corinthians 3:9-17
9 For we are God's fellow workers. You are God's field, God's building.​

This entire passage is addressed to a specific group God's fellow workers. God's field, God's building." Those who build on the foundation of Christ. vs. 10, 11, 12

10 According to the grace of God given to me, like a skilled master
builder I laid a foundation, [Christ] and someone else is building upon it. Let each one take care how he builds upon it.
11 For no one can lay a foundation other than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if anyone builds on the foundation [of Christ] with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw—
13 each one's work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.​

Not the ordinary, mundane works of all mankind but the works of Christian believers building on the foundation of Christ

14 If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.​

Note NOT the mundane, ordinary works of sinners but the works of Christians building on the foundation of Christ. If the work survives "gold, silver, precious stones" vs. 12.

15 If anyone's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.​

Man is NEVER saved by ordinary, mundane works. Man is NEVER saved by fire. It reads "as if through fire."

16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?
17 If anyone destroys God's temple, God will destroy him. For God's temple is holy, and you are that temple.​

Note vs. 15 does not say all sinful mankind will be saved, by fire, no matter what. This passage concludes with saying anyone who destroys God's temple will be destroyed NOT saved.

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Dear Der Alte,
"Fire" is the spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment. The Lake of Fire is Christ's judgment for everyone except the First-Fruits who have already been judged. They are judged in this present age.

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

The Lake of Fire is called the "second death" because those who are being judged are second to be judged. The First-Fruits were judged in this present age and were the first to experience death. The death in question is the death of our carnal nature.

Scripture says that all mankind will be judged. John the Baptist even proclaimed it when he said:

Mat 3:11-12 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Christ is going to baptize the world by the Holy Spirit and with fire. Judgment is a necessary component of our salvation and because it is, all mankind will be judged because all mankind will be saved:

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The "Day" that declares everyman's work is the Day of the Lord. It each person's time of judgment. The Elect are judged in this age before they physically die. For all others, the Day of the Lord will come to them upon their resurrection from the grave. It is the time of the Great White Throne judgment when they are cast into the Lake of Fire (judgment).

When the Day of the Lord arrives for the lost of this world, the Elect will have already been saved & glorified and are receiving their reward of life during the ages. They will be displayed to the lost who are experiencing their judgment in the Lake of Fire. Those in the Lake of Fire will will suffer loss but will be saved through that fire. Their loss is not having life during the ages and the blessing that accompany that life.

Here is another verse on judgment:

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

The term "tree" is a spiritual symbol for a Called Out believer (Early Rain). Since those believers are still carnal and cannot produce the spiritual fruit God requires of His children. they will be "hewn down". This is spiritual language for being judged and having one's carnal nature destroyed. After this judgment is complete, all that will be left is their new nature governed by the Holy Spirit. Only then will they produce the spiritual fruit Christ requires. Mankind cannot be saved without fire (judgment). Our carnal nature must be destroyed.

Joe

Clare73 said:

No, we have no Biblical basis for that, only Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam, she came from his rib, not his seed.

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O my gosh, I am so glad you cleared that up Clare : )

As in God's human order, gender (maleness, femaleness) is determined by the male,
so in God's genealogicial order, descent ("Adamness") is likewise determined by the male.

As seen in God's laws governed by genealogy, descent from Adam (Adamness, fallen nature), like gender, is determined by (descended from) the male, it is not determined by the female.

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Yet the female is fallen also. The fact remains, Jesus was physically descended from the line of Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, etc, etc. The scripture goes to great lengths to point this out, although obviously God did intervene in order to conquer sin once for all.

Jesus was not generated from the seed of Adam (because his father, God, was not descended from Adam), Jesus was generated from the seed of God, as are we in the new birth (John 1:13; 1 Peter 2:23).

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I don't know if God generated any physical seed and neither do you and we certainly do not cease to sin physically but Spiritually by faith we become free of sin, not exactly like the birth of Christ but you have done some heavy thinking and I may be all wrong. You are making me dig a little deeper, thanks Clare,

Could I talk you into aiming before you shoot?

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You never make a mistake? : ) Seriously, you are not one who thinks they never sin do you?

If you are using "fleshly" in the sense of Adam before he fell, then we are in agreement.

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I am using it in the sense that Adam was created sinless just as Jesus and we are but Adam and we fell, Jesus did not because He is God or was God in the flesh.

I believe Romans 5:18, that everyone comes into the world lost (condemned), and by nature (birth) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3), and
I believe Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11 that those who are predestined are saved eventually and, therefore conclude, if unborn or new babies die while infants or young children, they will go where God has predestined them to be.

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I can see where if children die prematurely God knows what they would have chosen but to say He chooses for them defies every thing we know about God.
God predestines many earthly situations and matters but individual salvation is not one of them. The scripture clearly says there is no partiality with God. What you are believing is a direct contradiction of that.

Quote from Moses Lard that really helped me to understand predestination. What do you think Clare? From the human side of the salvation issue, I believe it is faith alone in Christ that results in the salvation of the lost (Eph. 2:8–9). In effect, Calvinists have confused the biblical truth that God requires a lost person to believe in Jesus Christ (as a condition of salvation) in order for him or her to be saved by God with the unbiblical error that a person can or does make a contribution to his or her salvation and thereby becomes a cosavior with God. It would seem that to avoid the latter error, Calvinists have needlessly denied the former truth. Just because the candidate for salvation has some presalvation responsibility (i.e., to choose to believe in Jesus Christ), does not make him or her even partially a Savior.

ROMANS Chapter 9:
In choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God both chose and
rejected with exclusive reference to time, and with no reference
to eternity. As to the final destiny of the children, the choice
and rejection had no known effect upon it. It left each as free to pursue those things which would save him, and to shun those that would condemn him, as though it had never been made. Had each changed place with the other, it would not, in the slightest degree, have altered his prospects for heaven. What men wilfully do, not the divine choice, determines their final doom. God's choice, it is true, rendered the outward, temporal circumstances of Jacob and his posterity far superior to those of Esau and his; but, at the same time, it so increased responsibility as to leave the balances of justice level, and the chances of salvation equal.
The passage in hand has had assigned to it a very notorious conspicuity in theories of election, and, in my judgment, has been greatly abused. It was not penned in the interest of dogmatic Calvinism, and therefore does not countenance its offensive tenets. Interpreted as it should be, it teaches nothing contradictory of other portions of holy Writ, and shocking to our human sense of justice. In it God stands out still in a lovely light, and not as the arbitrary, inexorable Judge, who appoints one man to heaven and another to hell, not only without reason, but in defiance of it, so far as man can see. As I do not feel called upon to hunt up and notice all the various abuses to which the passage has been subjected, I shall leave that task with those who imagine that they can derive any profit from it.
12. The elder shall serve the younger. We have no account of Esau ever having personally served Jacob. The reference then must be to their respective posterities; and with this agree the facts of history. For in 2 Sam. viii: 14 it is distinctly said that "all they of Edom [Esau's posterity] became David's servants." Indeed, the Edomites were long subject to the kings of Israel, the latter often slaying them in great numbers. But the Edomites frequently asserted their independence; and at such times they became most barbarous and cruel. They seem to have taken especial pains to cultivate Esau's ancient hatred of Jacob; and they never let pass an opportunity to display it. About the time Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, they seem to have disappeared as a separate people. After this we hear no more of them.
13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which he hated Esau, in rejecting him from being one
of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean. Hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as loved less.

SUMMARY.
Is it not unjust in God to choose one and reject another, as in the case of ( Jacob and Esau? Not at all; for in doing so, he acts according to his own avowed principles of conduct, which must be assumed to be right. Accordingly he says to Moses, I will make my own sense of right my rule in showing mercy. It was on this principle that he set up Pharaoh to be king. But all these choices create mere worldly distinctions. They are not choices to eternal life. But If God makes men what he pleases, why does he still find fault with them? He does not do so. He finds no fault with them for being what he makes them, but only for their own voluntary wrong.

misput said:

O my gosh, I am so glad you cleared that up Clare : )
Yet the female is fallen also. The fact remains, Jesus was physically descended from the line of Adam and Eve, Abraham, David, etc, etc. The scripture goes to great lengths to point this out, although obviously God did intervene in order to conquer sin once for all.

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It's not about physical descendancy, it's about genealogical reckoning according to the law of God.

As gender (maleness, femaleness) is determined by the male,
so decent ("Adamness") is determined by the male
in the laws of God governed by genealogy.

I don't know if God generated any physical seed and neither do you

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Contrare. . .

I know that the NT presents such (1 John 3:9, John 1:13)
and I have no basis nor authority to deny it.

and we certainly do not cease to sin physically

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Agreed, we all have human males for fathers, which Jesus did not.

but Spiritually by faith we become free of sin, not exactly like the birth of Christ

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We become free of the guilt of sin because we are reborn into eternal life and through faith the penalty for our sin is paid by Jesus (salvation);
God has, therefore, declared us "not guilty," and in right standing with his justice; i.e., righteous (justification);
and the Holy Spirit indwells us and empowers us to overcome sin.

but you have done some heavy thinking and I may be all wrong. You are making me dig a little deeper, thanks Clare,

You never make a mistake? : ) Seriously, you are not one who thinks they never sin do you?

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MOI ? !!! Surely not!

I am using it in the sense that Adam was created sinless just as Jesus and we are but Adam and we fell, Jesus did not because He is God or was God in the flesh.

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Not accoding to authoritative NT teaching.

We are all condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18), by nature (with which we are born), objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are born condemned, by Adam's sin and our nature.
We are not born sinless. We are born with "original sin."

I can see where if children die prematurely God knows what they would have chosen but to say He chooses for them defies every thing we know about God.

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It's the God of the NT in Ephesians 1:4 (chosen by God before the creation of the world; i.e., foreknowledge) and in Romans 8:29-30 (foreknowledge/chosen by God--as in Romans 11:2;
1 Peter 1:20; predestined; called; justified and glorified).

God's foreknowledge is his choice/decree before the foundations of the world.

God predestines many earthly situations and matters but individual salvation is not one of them.

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According to Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 8:29-30 salvation is one of them.

The scripture clearly says there is no partiality with God. What
you are believing is a direct contradiction of that.

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Romans 2:11-16 - No partiality in his justice, where all will be judged according to law: the Jews according to the law of Moses (Romans 2:12) and the Gentiles acording to the law of their conscience (Romans 2:14-15) at the final judgment (Romans 2:16).

God owes everyone justice (which necessarily excludes partiality), owes what one is due, what one has earned, he owes no one anything more.
In justice, he owes us punishment for our sin, he owes us nothing more.

He owes no one mercy nor compassion.
That is his soveriegn right to dispense as he pleases, based on nothing but his choice to do so (Romans 9:14-18).
This he sovereignly does in predestination (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

What I am believing is not a contradiction of God's impartiality.
What I am believing is according to God's impartiality as revealed in the God-breathed Scriptures
(2 Timothy 3:16).

misput said:

Quote from Moses Lard that really helped me to understand predestination. What do you think Clare? From the human side of the salvation issue, I believe it is faith alone in Christ that results in the salvation of the lost (Eph. 2:8–9). In effect, Calvinists have confused the biblical truth that God requires a lost person to believe in Jesus Christ (as a condition of salvation) in order for him or her to be saved by God with the unbiblical error that a person can or does make a contribution to his or her salvation and thereby becomes a cosavior with God. It would seem that to avoid the latter error, Calvinists have needlessly denied the former truth.

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Just because the candidate for salvation has some presalvation responsibility (i.e., to choose to believe in Jesus Christ), does not make him or her even partially a Savior.

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Salvation is the Lord's! (Revelation 7:10) so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The two Scriptures explain the issue.
Salvation is totally of God, man contributes nothing. . .so that God receives all the glory, for God shares his glory with no one (Isaiah 48:11).
This is not a small thing with God, yielding his glory to another.

ROMANS Chapter 9:
In choosing Jacob and rejecting Esau, God both chose and
rejected with exclusive reference to time, and with no reference
to eternity. As to the final destiny of the children, the choice
and rejection had no known effect upon it.

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Correct.

Romans 9:10-13 is not about the salvation of either boy.
It is simply a demonstration of the exercise of God's sovereignty in election, based on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so. It is not a demonstration of any outcome, only of sovereign election itself.

God's sovereign election to salvation is presented in Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11.

Moses Lard in the following seems to confuse the two.

It left each as free to pursue those things which would save him, and to shun those that would condemn him, as though it had never been made. Had each changed place with the other, it would not, in the slightest degree, have altered his prospects for heaven. What men wilfully do, not the divine choice, determines their final doom. God's choice, it is true, rendered the outward, temporal circumstances of Jacob and his posterity far superior to those of Esau and his; but, at the same time, it so increased responsibility as to leave the balances of justice level, and the chances of salvation equal.
The passage in hand has had assigned to it a very notorious conspicuity in theories of election, and, in my judgment, has been greatly abused. It was not penned in the interest of dogmatic Calvinism, and therefore does not countenance its offensive tenets. Interpreted as it should be, it teaches nothing contradictory of other portions of holy Writ, and shocking to our human sense of justice. In it God stands out still in a lovely light, and not as the arbitrary, inexorable Judge, who appoints one man to heaven and another to hell, not only without reason, but in defiance of it, so far as man can see. As I do not feel called upon to hunt up and notice all the various abuses to which the passage has been subjected, I shall leave that task with those who imagine that they can derive any profit from it.
12. The elder shall serve the younger. We have no account of Esau ever having personally served Jacob. The reference then must be to their respective posterities; and with this agree the facts of history. For in 2 Sam. viii: 14 it is distinctly said that "all they of Edom [Esau's posterity] became David's servants." Indeed, the Edomites were long subject to the kings of Israel, the latter often slaying them in great numbers. But the Edomites frequently asserted their independence; and at such times they became most barbarous and cruel. They seem to have taken especial pains to cultivate Esau's ancient hatred of Jacob; and they never let pass an opportunity to display it. About the time Jerusalem was destroyed by Titus, they seem to have disappeared as a separate people. After this we hear no more of them.
13. As it is written: I loved Jacob, but hated Esau. This quotation is from Mal. i: 2, 3- The extent to which God
loved Jacob was shown in preferring him to his brother; and the extent to which he hated Esau, in rejecting him from being one
of the heads of his chosen people. More than this, the words need not be supposed to mean. Hatred, especially, we may assume to be used in the bold exaggerating sense so common with the prophets. It denotes not so much positive hatred, as loved less.

SUMMARY.
Is it not unjust in God to choose one and reject another, as in the case of ( Jacob and Esau? Not at all; for in doing so, he acts according to his own avowed principles of conduct, which must be assumed to be right. Accordingly he says to Moses, I will make my own sense of right my rule in showing mercy. It was on this principle that he set up Pharaoh to be king.

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But all these choices create mere worldly distinctions. They are not choices to eternal life.

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They are not to salvation in Romans 9:10-13 regarding Jacob and Esau, but
they are to salvation in Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, regarding the elect (Romans 11:7; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:10).

But If God makes men what he pleases, why does he still find fault with them?
He does not do so. He finds no fault with them for being what he makes them, but only for their own voluntary wrong.

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Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .Moses Lard deliberately corrupts the word of God here.

Lard asks the question which Scripture itself poses in Romans 9:19 regarding God choosing to save some but not others (Romans 9:18), and then gives his answer to the question; i.e., "He does not do so," which denies the question instead of dealing with it by giving the text's answer to it. The text does not deny the question but affirms it in giving the Biblical response to it.
I would never again read another thing Moses Lard wrote, because of his dishonesty in rightly handling (dividing, cutting straight) the plain word of truth here. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Scripture's answer to the question of "why does God still find fault with them" when he chooses to harden them (i.e., simply to not soften them) is simply assertion of God's sovereign right to do so, from Isaiah 29:16, Isaiah 45:9:
Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
"Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste vessels)?

In general, Moses Lard here fails to distinguish between a demonstration of the sovereignty of God in election (Romans 9:10-13) and God's actual sovereign election to salvation itself (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11).

JohnD70X7 said:

Once again we have known about the technology for years of gestational surrogacy.

And I stated plainly in the OP that Jesus went through the birthing process (rather than being created as a fully functioning adult as the first Adam was) to have the [LEGAL] birth right of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

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Which birthright is determined by the male parent, not the female parent,
for descent ("Adamness"), as well as gender (maleness, femaleness) are determined by the male, and Jesus did not descend from a human male, and had no "Adamness;" i.e., sinful nature.

Genesis 3 says "seed of the woman" (women have no seed).

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Precisely. . .this seed who would crush the head of the serpent would not have a human father.
His biological human lineage would be of the "seed" of Mary.

And "the woman" is Israel (Revelation 12).

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I say the woman of Genesis 3 is Mary and
I say the seed of the serpent (v.15) is Israel (John 8:44), as Jesus said.

Clare73 said:

It's not about physical descendancy, it's about genealogical reckoning according to the law of God.

As gender (maleness, femaleness) is determined by the male,
so decent ("Adamness") is determined by the male
in the laws of God governed by genealogy.

Contrare. . .

I know that the NT presents such (1 John 3:9, John 1:13)
and I have no basis nor authority to deny it.
Agreed, we all have human males for fathers, which Jesus did not.

We become free of the guilt of sin because we are reborn into eternal life and through faith the penalty for our sin is paid by Jesus (salvation);
God has, therefore, declared us "not guilty," and in right standing with his justice; i.e., righteous (justification);
and the Holy Spirit indwells us and empowers us to overcome sin.

MOI ? !!! Surely not!

Not accoding to authoritative NT teaching.

We are all condemned by Adam's sin (Romans 5:18), by nature (with which we are born), objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3). We are born condemned, by Adam's sin and our nature.
We are not born sinless. We are born with "original sin."
It's the God of the NT in Ephesians 1:4 (chosen by God before the creation of the world; i.e., foreknowledge) and in Romans 8:29-30 (foreknowledge/chosen by God--as in Romans 11:2;
1 Peter 1:20; predestined; called; justified and glorified).

God's foreknowledge is his choice/decree before the foundations of the world.
According to Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11 and Romans 8:29-30 salvation is one of them.
Romans 2:11-16 - No partiality in his justice, where all will be judged according to law: the Jews according to the law of Moses (Romans 2:12) and the Gentiles acording to the law of their conscience (Romans 2:14-15) at the final judgment (Romans 2:16).

God owes everyone justice (which necessarily excludes partiality), owes what one is due, what one has earned, he owes no one anything more.
In justice, he owes us punishment for our sin, he owes us nothing more.

He owes no one mercy nor compassion.
That is his soveriegn right to dispense as he pleases, based on nothing but his choice to do so (Romans 9:14-18).
This he sovereignly does in predestination (Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11; Romans 8:29-30).

What I am believing is not a contradiction of God's impartiality.
What I am believing is according to God's impartiality as revealed in the God-breathed Scriptures
(2 Timothy 3:16).

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We are not predestined to be believers, we are predestined as believers. Nuance thinking (aware of delicate shades of meaning) non Calvinist thinking. Black and white thinking=Calvinistic or literal VS Spiritual. A basic truth, when we have no choice, we are not held responsible, when we have a choice we are held responsible. The elect is Jesus, all who are in Jesus are elect also. Think of it as cooperate election.

Clare73 said:

Salvation is the Lord's! (Revelation 7:10) so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9).
The two Scriptures explain the issue.
Salvation is totally of God, man contributes nothing. . .so that God receives all the glory, for God shares his glory with no one (Isaiah 48:11).
This is not a small thing with God, yielding his glory to another.
Correct.

Romans 9:10-13 is not about the salvation of either boy.
It is simply a demonstration of the exercise of God's sovereignty in election, based on nothing but his sovereign choice to do so. It is not a demonstration of any outcome, only of sovereign election itself.

God's sovereign election to salvation is presented in Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11.

Moses Lard in the following seems to confuse the two.
They are not to salvation in Romans 9:10-13 regarding Jacob and Esau, but
they are to salvation in Romans 8:29-30, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11, regarding the elect (Romans 11:7; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1; 2 Timothy 2:10).

Tsk, tsk, tsk. . .Moses Lard deliberately corrupts the word of God here.

Lard asks the question which Scripture itself poses in Romans 9:19 regarding God choosing to save some but not others (Romans 9:18), and then gives his answer to the question; i.e., "He does not do so," which denies the question instead of dealing with it by giving the text's answer to it. The text does not deny the question but affirms it in giving the Biblical response to it.
I would never again read another thing Moses Lard wrote, because of his dishonesty in rightly handling (dividing, cutting straight) the plain word of truth here. (2 Timothy 2:15)

Scripture's answer to the question of "why does God still find fault with them" when he chooses to harden them (i.e., simply to not soften them) is simply assertion of God's sovereign right to do so, from Isaiah 29:16, Isaiah 45:9:
Who are you, O man, to talk back to God?
"Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "
Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use (human waste vessels)?

In general, Moses Lard here fails to distinguish between a demonstration of the sovereignty of God in election (Romans 9:10-13) and God's actual sovereign election to salvation itself (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11).

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Why do you take such a negative stance toward Lard? He is just trying to understand a very difficult doctrine the same as you and I and I seriously doubt that He is deliberately trying to corrupt God's word any more than you and I and we read each others opinions. You have a tendency like most of us to come on with the attitude you cannot be wrong. A little humility goes a long way Clare : )