Man who made you a judge over me?
I can't count how many times people with a superior attitude lectured me about how they are so much more spiritual than I am and accusing me of being spiritually blind.
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture, out-of-context, cramming them together and claiming that they have a "spiritual" meaning that only a select few can understand as you have done. To name a few; JW, LDS OP, UPCI, WWCG, INC, Kristadelfian etc.
John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In these two verses Jesus defines "aionios" as meaning, eternal, everlasting by paralleling it with "should not perish," twice. If something is repeated in scripture it is important. Nowhere does Jesus state or imply that these two statements are spiritual and do not mean exactly what they say.
Yes there are things in the Bible that are spiritual but everything in the Bible is not hidden behind spiritual language.
According to scripture God and the Lamb reign for the same length of time.
Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the Lamb] shall reign for ever and ever.
Let us note that your superior spiritual discernment led you to believe that the word translated "eternal" in the OT is "yom."
There are two words translated "eternal" in the OT "olam" and "ad." I don't think I can buy into your "spiritual discernment."
Dear Der Alte,
You said:
John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
In these two verses Jesus defines "aionios" as meaning, eternal, everlasting by paralleling it with "should not perish," twice. If something is repeated in scripture it is important. Nowhere does Jesus state or imply that these two statements are spiritual and do not mean exactly what they say.
Your worldly "bias" is causing you to understand the verse as you do. Life during the ages is the blessing and the promise that the "heirs" (First-Fruits, Elect) receive. All mankind will receive "life" but only the heirs will receive life during this age and the final age. The truth of scripture is written for them. To all others, the truth of scripture is concealed.
Look at this verse:
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into age-during punishment: but the righteous into age-during.
Punishment (judgment) only lasts until Christ's loving and merciful purpose is satisfied.
Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Once the "last penny" is paid, judgment ends. The Elect are being judged in this present age:
1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?
If the Doctrine of Hell were true, Christ would have stated so to the "chief priests and elders" to whom He spoke with in the verse below:
Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.
But because of the work of Christ, mankind's salvation is a 100% certainty. Only the timing of each person's salvation will vary. These "chief priests and elders" will be some of the last to be saved but they
will be saved. Christ is only saving the chosen Elect in this age. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind. In the next and final age, the remaining Gentiles will then be saved. Once their "fulness" has come in, the Nation of Israel will then be saved, including these chief priests and elders who were responsible for crucifying Christ.
If the Doctrine of Hell were true, why did Christ say that the chief priests and elders would be saved?
This is why:
Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Christ's judgment is for mankind's benefit. Without judgment, no one would be saved. Our carnal nature must be destroyed so that we stop sinning. Once it is destroyed by judgment, all that will remain is our new nature of the Holy Spirit which never sins.
Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.
Christ's judgment is not like evil mankind's perverted judgment. Christ loves all mankind and will do what is necessary to make us all righteous and holy. He uses judgment for that purpose. In the end, Christ will accomplish the mission the Father gave Him:
1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Why do you and the mainstream teachers believe that Christ is going to utterly fail in the mission the Father gave Him? Don't you know that God never fails at anything:
Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?
You said:
Yes there are things in the Bible that are spiritual but everything in the Bible is not hidden behind spiritual language.
According to scripture God and the Lamb reign for the same length of time.
Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the Lamb] shall reign for ever and ever.
All "teaching" in scripture is given to us in Christ's spiritual language. Even the "events" of the Old Testament carry a spiritual message to the Elect.
Rev 22:3-5 is speaking in Christ's spiritual language using
physical symbols which represent spiritual truths. The New Jerusalem represents the Elect, the First-Fruits. They are displayed to the lost who are in the Lake of Fire:
Eph 2:7 that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.
The reason the throne of God and the Lamb are present is because this occurs "during the ages". But once all mankind is saved and the ages have come to an end, Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and Christ's reign will come to an end:
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
God the Father will then be "all in all" because all mankind is saved. No one will be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven. But only the Elect receive "life" during the ages. That is their blessing.
You said:
Let us note that your superior spiritual discernment led you to believe that the word translated "eternal" in the OT is "yom."
There are two words translated "eternal" in the OT "olam" and "ad." I don't think I can buy into your "spiritual discernment."
There are no Hebrew words that should be translated as "eternal". Here is what I said in reference to the verse below:
"The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".
Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Yom).
Also, spiritual discernment means to understand the spiritual language of scripture. It does not include any human mistakes that I or anyone might make in making a post on a forum.
Here is an example of spiritual discernment:
Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that
is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?
Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.
In
Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...
Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...
From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in
Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.
Water baptism is another symbol which sends the
same spiritual message as
Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).
Joe