The Times We Live in...

misput said:

Sounds like you may be having trouble distinguishing between the physical and the Spiritual. The scripture clearly states Christ was of the physical linage (son of) Adam, Abraham, David, etc, etc but He was Spiritually The Son Of God, actually God in the flesh of a man. Actually it does not matter how we see it, only whether we are believing in Him for our salvation.

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If you would read the lineage of Jesus from Abraham to David through Joseph (and not Mary), you will see that he was not physically from that lineage. You will see that God "PLACED" Christ in that lineage based on the seed that God implanted into Mary. You will be able to determine this when you read that Joseph, who was not Jesus father was the one God considered for Jesus lineage, and not Mary. Matthew 1:16, "And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. It is the man's seed that's considered. Notice that Joseph is from the lineage of David. But Jesus is not Joseph's seed. And Mary's lineage is not considered at all. This is because Jesus is God's seed, and God PLACED/SELECTED the lineage of Abraham and David to fulfill His prophecy. Jesus was made in the "likeness" of men, Philippians 2:7.

We have to be able to discern what the word says and not try and outdo each other. We also have to consider "reason" when reading the bible, and be concerned about providing truth and not falsehood. That's very important being a Christian. Christians are not to be trying to foolishly outdo one another.

Now read it again, and put on your use thinking cap! Matthew 1:1-16. And notice verse 16.

misput said:

According to God He did physically.
Reckoned and reality are two different things.

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But in heaven they are the same.
What is reckoned in heaven is true reality according to God.

Who you gonna' believe. . .God or your lyin' eyes?

Jesus physically was a descendant of Adam and Eve. That is why He could be tempted the same as us. Spiritually He was God in the flesh, called Son of God, God with us, was with God in the beginning, was God. That is why He could resist sin.

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Not just resist, but over-power.

That's my story and I am sticking to it : )

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And the lyin' eyes win.
Yes, his flesh was from Mary, but not his sinless human nature. So though Mary was a descendant of Adam, Jesus did not receive what she inherited from Adam--fallen human nature, his father being determinitive, according to God's law, forever settled in heaven.

biblelesson said:

He had no earthly father, so he could not have been a descendant of an earthly man.

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Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam.

As maleness and femaleness are determined by the male,
so "Adamness" is determined by the male.

In God's order, the fallen nature (Adamness), like gender, is determined by the male,
it is not determined by the female.

Jesus was not generated from the seed of man, but the seed of God, as are we in the new birth
(John 1:13; 1 John 3:9).

JohnD70X7 said:

Jesus existed before anyone or anything was created (Micah 5:2). He is just eternal as the Father in his Spirit.

Micah 5:2 (AV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

Only his body is the creation of the Father (who was not even a Father until he created the body of Jesus). Hebrews 10:5 / Hebrews 1:5

This is covering ground I already thoroughly explained.

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Dear John,
Here is the correct translation of the verse you quoted:

Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village among all the people of
Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.

The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".

"yom" means: from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):—age, always, chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), elder, × end, evening, (for) ever(-lasting, -more), × full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, × required, season, × since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), × whole ( age), (full) year(-ly), younger.

At the time the scriptures were written, there were no single Hebrew or Greek words that meant "everlasting" or "forever". Anytime you see that translation in scripture, it should be rejected.

There is only one God who is above all things and from which all things come. Christ is the Son of God, just as all mankind will be Sons of God someday.

Christ is mankind's God, our everlasting Father, Lord and Savior because He comes to us in the name of His Father. Jesus has the full authority of the Father and represents Him. BUT Jesus is still subordinate to the Father and always will be.

The verses I quoted below contradict the teaching of the trinity doctrine. The evidence is overwhelming. If you are ever going to see the truth, you must put aside your preconceived bias that comes from this world and from the spiritually blind leaders of the church.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

1Cor 15:24-28 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

2Cor 1:3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;

2Cor 6:18 And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Gal 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

2Thes 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Heb 5:8-10 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

1John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

2John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Rev 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Joe

FaithWillDo said:

Dear John,
Here is the correct translation of the verse you quoted:
The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".

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Wrong!

"yom" means: from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):—age, always, chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), elder, × end, evening, (for) ever(-lasting, -more), × full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, × required, season, × since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), × whole ( age), (full) year(-ly), younger.

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From where did you copy/paste this list?

At the time the scriptures were written, there were no single Hebrew or Greek words that meant "everlasting" or "forever". Anytime you see that translation in scripture, it should be rejected.

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I have been active at this forum for more than 2 decades. I have been hearing the arguments that "aionios never means eternal", "aion never means eternity" and "Olam never means eternal" for a long time. I am retired times 3, having an abundance of spare time I decided to investigate this for myself.
Many words have definite meanings but are sometimes used figuratively. For example Herod was not actually, literally a fox when Jesus called him that. Simon was not actually, literally a Petros, stone, when Jesus called him that. James and John were not actually, literally sons of thunder when Jesus called them that.
“aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 5 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………eternal 42 times in the N.T.
“……….”….”………everlasting 25 times in the N.T.
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, Jesus never uses “aionios” to refer something ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
= = = = = = = = = =
In twenty four [24] of the following verses aion and aionios are defined/described as eternal, everlasting, eternity etc, by paralleling or juxtaposition with other adjectives or adjectival phrases.
= = = = = = = = = =
…..Some people claim that “aion/aionios” never means eternity/eternal because they sometimes refer to things which are not eternal.
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by other adjectives or adjectival phrases, as meaning a period of time less than eternal, in the New Testament, as in the following verses.
…..Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times. He never used “aionios” to refer to anything ordinary or mundane that was not or could not be eternal.
…..In the following ten verses Jesus defines “aionios” as “eternal.”
In this verse the reign/basileusei, which is the verb form of the word, is "aionas" and of the kingdom/basileias, the noun form of the same word, "there shall be no end.” “Aionas” by definition here means eternal.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “aionios life” with “death.” If “live aionios” is only a finite period, a finite period is not opposite “death.” Thus “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite period,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”
In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish.” Believers could eventually perish in a finite period, thus by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.
In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” with “shall not come into condemnation” and “passed from death unto life.” “Aionios” does not mean “a finite period,” by definition here it means “eternal,” unless Jesus lets His followers come into condemnation and pass into death.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposed aionios life with “shall not see life.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall not see life” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus paralleled aionios with “shall [ου μη/ou mé][fn] never thirst.” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “shall never thirst.” By definition aionios means eternal. See footnote [fn] on “ou mé” below.
In this verse Jesus contrasted “aionios meat” with “meat that perishes” If aionios means an indefinite age that is not opposite “meat that perishes.” By definition aionios means eternal.
In this verse Jesus juxtaposes “unto aion” with “never see death.” By definition “aion” means eternity.


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Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.
In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”
In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.
In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”
In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”
In this verse Peter juxtaposed “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”
In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear John,
Here is the correct translation of the verse you quoted:
Micah 5:2 But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, are only a small village among all the people of
Judah. Yet a ruler of Israel will come from you, one whose origins are from the distant past.
The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".
"yom" means: from an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literal (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figurative (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverb):—age, always, chronicals, continually(-ance), daily, ((birth-), each, to) day, (now a, two) days (agone), elder, × end, evening, (for) ever(-lasting, -more), × full, life, as (so) long as (... live), (even) now, old, outlived, perpetually, presently, remaineth, × required, season, × since, space, then, (process of) time, as at other times, in trouble, weather, (as) when, (a, the, within a) while (that), × whole ( age), (full) year(-ly), younger....

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Your first mistake here is "Yom" is the Hebrew word for day and AFAIK is never translated "forever." The Hebrew word for "eternal" is "olam." And as with the Greek "aionios" and many other words is sometimes used figuratively.
In the 1917 Jewish Publication Society [JPS] translation of the OT “olam” is translated “for ever” 341 times. “everlasting” 67 times and “eternal” 12 times.
Who better than the native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars know the correct translation of Hebrew words.
Eighteen examples of the Hebrew “olam” defined by being paralleled or juxtaposed with adjectives or phrases which show conclusively it means eternal.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “unto all generations.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,”“eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” and “ad” is paralleled with “continually.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “continually,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “length of days”. “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days, “eternal does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “all generations”, “eternal” does.
In these 2 vss. “olam” is juxtaposed with “never shall be”, “age(s),” a finite period, is not the opposite of “never shall be,” “eternal” is.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “to all generations,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “to all generations,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is in paralleled to “unto all generations,” ”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “unto all generations,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “nothing can be added or taken away from it [God’s acts.]” “age(s),“ a finite period, does not equate to “nothing can be added or taken away from God acts,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “shall not be abolished”, “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “shall not be abolished,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “generation to generation,” age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam,” is twice paralleled with “from generation to generation, ”age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “from generation to generation,”age(s),” does not equate to “from generation to generation,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “will not pass away” and “never be destroyed,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not pass away, never be destroyed”, “eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam,” is twice paralleled with “will not be forgotten,” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,””eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “will not be forgotten,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will not be forgotten,” ”eternal” does.
In this vs. “olam” is paralleled with “will never die,””age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “will never die,” ”eternal” does.
= = = = = = = = = =
Here are four examples of the Hebrew “ad” paralleled/juxtaposed with “will never die” which show conclusively that it means “eternal.”
In this vs. “ad” is paralleled with “length of days.” “age(s),” a finite period, does not equate to “length of days,” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “ad” is paralleled with “continually.” “age(s)” does not equate to “continually” “eternal” does.
In this vs. “ad” is paralleled with “in all generations.” “Age(s)” does not equate to “all generations”
In this vs. “ad” is juxtaposed with ”for a moment.” “Age(s)” is not opposite to “for a moment” “eternal” is.

Der Alte said:

[Previous post continued]

Paul used the word “aionios” eleven [11] times. It is translated “eternal/everlasting” 20 times and world 3 times. In the following 12 verses Paul defines “aionios” as eternal.

[11]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[12]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[13]Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
[14]Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20 Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aidios” synonymous with “aionios.” In this verse by definition “aionios” means eternal, everlasting.

[15]2 Corinthians 4:17-18
(17) For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal [aionios] weight of glory;
(18) While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;[proskairos] but the things which are not seen are eternal [aionios]​

In this passage Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “for a moment,” vs. 4, and “temporal,” vs. 5. “Age(s)” an indeterminate finite period, it is not the opposite of “for a moment”/”temporal/temporary” “eternal” is. “Aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[16]2 Corinthians 5:1
(1) For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios house” with “earthly house which is destroyed.” Is God going to replace our destroyed earthly house with a house which only lasts a little longer and will be destroyed at the end of an age? The aionios house is not destroyed, the opposite of “is destroyed.” Thus, “aionios” by definition here means “eternal.”

[17]1 Timothy 6:16
(16) Who only hath immortality, [aphthartos] dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul paralleled “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, God cannot be “immortal” and only exist for a finite period at the same time. Thus “aionios” by definition means “eternal.”

[18]Galatians 6:8
(8) For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; [fthora] but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting. [aionios] ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios” with “corruption.” “Fleshly” people reap “corruption” but spiritual people reap “life aionios,” i.e. “not corruption.” “Age(s), a finite period, is not opposite of “corruption.” Thus “aionios life” by definition here means “eternal/everlasting life.”

[19]Romans 2:7
(7) To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, [apftharsia] he will give eternal [aionios] life. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aionios” with “immortality.” If “aionios” is only a finite period, believers do not seek for “a finite period,” and “immortality” at the same time. But they can seek for “eternal life” and “immortality” at the same time. Thus by definition “aionios life” here means “eternal life.”

[20]1 Timothy 1:17.
(17) Now unto the King eternal, [aion] immortal, [aphthartos] invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever [aion] and ever [aionios]. Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “aion” with “immortal.” “Aion” cannot mean “age(s),” a finite period and immortal at the same time. Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[21]Romans 5:21
(21) That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal [aionios] life by Jesus Christ our Lord. ​

In this verse Paul juxtaposes “aionios life” with death. “A finite period life” is not opposite death. “Aionios life” by definition here means ‘eternal life.”

[22]Ephesians 3:21
(21) to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever [tou aionios] and ever! [ton aionion] Amen. ​

In this verse Paul parallels “tou aionios ton aionion” with “throughout all generations.” "Age(s)" a finite period cannot refer to "all generations." By definition “tou aionios ton aionion” means forever and ever.

[23]Hebrews 7:24 but because Jesus lives forever [aion] he has an unchangeable [aparabatos] priesthood.​

In this verse “aion” is parallel with “unchangeable.” If “aion” means “age(s),” Jesus cannot continue for only a “finite period” and simultaneously be “unchangeable.” Thus “aion” by definition here means “eternal.”

[24]1 Peter 1:23
(23) For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, [aphthartos] through the living and enduring word of God. …
1 Peter 1:25
(25) but the word of the Lord endures forever.[aion] " And this is the word that was preached to you.​

In verse 23 Peter parallels “word of God” with “imperishable.” The same writer, Peter, in the same writing 1 Peter, in verse 25 writes the word of God “endures eis ton aiona/unto eternity. ” The word of God is not a finite age long but imperishable. Thus by definition “aion” here means “eternity”

[25]1 Peter 5:10
(10) And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal [aionion] glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, [oligon] will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast. ​

In this verse Peter juxtaposed “aionios” with “little while” Jesus does not give His followers a finite period of glory then they eventually die. Thus “aionios” here, by definition, means “eternal.”

[26]Revelation 14:11
(11) And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever:[eis aionas aionon] and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.​

In this verse “aionas aionon torment” is paralleled with “no rest day or night.” If “aionas, aionon” means “a finite period” at some time they would rest, “Aionas, aionon” by definition here means “forever and forever.”
= = = = = = =
Footnotes ου μη/ou mé
●The double negative [ου μη] signifies in nowise, by no means. Θεωρήσῃ[theōrésé], denoting steady, protracted vision, is purposely used, because the promise contemplates the entire course of the believer's life in Christ. It is not, shall not die forever, but shall live eternally.[Vincent word studies]
● ④οὐ marker of reinforced negation, in combination w. μή, οὐ μή has the effect of strengthening the negation (Kühner-G. II 221–23; Schwyzer II 317; Mlt. 187–92 [a thorough treatment of NT usage]; B-D-F §365; RLudwig: D. prophet. Wort 31 ’37, 272–79; JLee, NovT 27, ’85, 18–23; B-D-F §365.—Pla., Hdt. et al. [Kühner-G. loc. cit.]; SIG 1042, 16; POxy 119, 5, 14f; 903, 16; PGM 5, 279; 13, 321; LXX; TestAbr A 8 p. 85, 11 [Stone p. 46]; JosAs 20:3; GrBar 1:7; ApcEsdr 2:7; Just., D. 141, 2). οὐ μή is the most decisive way of negativing something in the future.
Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000)A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian Literature.(3rd Ed). Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
● The combinations with οὐ μή also be noticed as, ουδεν οὐ μή (Lu. 10:19); οὐ μή se σε άνο ουδ ου σε εγκαταιπο (Heb. 13:5); ουκετι οὐ μή (Rev. 18:14). There is no denying the power of this accumulation of negatives. Cf. the English hymn "I'll never, no never, no never forsake."
Grammar Of The Greek New Testament In The Light Of Historical Research
By A. T. Robertson, M.A., D.D., Ll.D., Litt.D. p.1165.

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Dear Der Alte,
Not matter how long a believer studies scripture, it is of little value without "eyes that can see". "Eyes" means to have a spiritual understanding of scripture. Without that ability, the Word of God (Christ) will remain concealed. All Early Rain believers are spiritually blind. It is only if a believer has been chosen from the foundation of the world and has received the Latter Rain, that their spiritual blindness is healed by Christ. Without that healing, a believer will only see Christ in the flesh (with the carnal mind). But once Christ heals a believer's spiritual blindness, they will "see" with the mind of Christ and the truth of scripture will open up to them.

As for aion and aionios, the verses you quoted all should be translated as ages or age-enduring. The teachings of Christ apply to the "ages". Nothing is taught in scripture before or after the ages. The Elect have life during the ages. The rest of mankind will only have life upon the completion of the ages. Christ reigns only during the ages. His priesthood is only during the ages. Judgment is only during the ages.

When scripture wants to express something as being forever, it will say "has no end", "never dies" or "immortality" or words to that effect.

Here is an example:

John 11:26 and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life (life age-enduring):

In this last verse, why would scripture say we have "immortality" and then repeat it as "eternal life"? It makes no sense. The reason two different words are used is because they express something different. Once we are saved, we have immortality and life during the ages.

Look at this verse as the KJV translates it:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall reign for ever and ever. Amen!

However, Christ only reigns for the ages:

1Cor 15:21-26 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Once all who are in Adam (all mankind) are made alive "in Christ", the ages, along with the reign of Christ, will come to an end.

Rev 11:15 must be translated as "for the ages of the ages" otherwise there is a obvious contradiction in scripture.

Judgment is also only during the ages and comes to an end when it's desired purpose has been satisfied:

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

The "last penny" is referring to the complete destruction of our carnal nature. All mankind will be given a new spiritual nature which requires that our old carnal nature be destroyed. This is one of the purposes of judgment. Once our carnal nature is destroyed, the "last penny" is paid.

Christ says it this way, too:

Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

After an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they remain spiritually blind and will be "broken" (fall away and lose their salvation). Their carnal nature will live on and not die:

Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.

But for those chosen, upon receiving the Latter Rain, they will be ground to powder (carnal nature judged and destroyed).

Without a correct understanding of the overall truth, a believer cannot put the pieces of scripture together in an accurate way. Christ made scripture this way on purpose so as to keep His truth concealed from all but those He has chosen to reveal it:

Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

The "another tongue" is Christ's spiritual language. He teaches in this language "a little here and a little there". He teaches this way to conceal His truth from this world and from believers who are "called out" (Early Rain believers). These Early Rain believers are the ones who "fall on the stone" and who are "broken, and snared, and taken". They have "fallen away" and are mixing "works" with faith. "Works" is what Satan teaches as truth and Faith is what Christ teaches as truth. All Early Rain believer will try to serve these two masters but will fail and "be broken".

I received the Latter Rain on Oct 8th, 2005. My testimony from that time is posted in my profile. I have spent the last 16 years re-learning the truth of Christ because none of the mainstream doctrines which I had been taught are true. The church is still controlled by the wolves who entered the church near the end of the Apostles ministries. Satan masquerades as Christ in the churches and deceives the spiritually blind believers by the spirit of anti-Christ. Those believers are being fed a steady diet of stones and leavened bread. They are truly places where the "blind lead the blind". Because of this truth, nearly 2000 different church denominations/sects have been created - with all of them teaching their own version of the truth.

After my spiritual blindness was healed back in 2005, I quickly saw how aion and aionios fit perfectly with the overall body of scripture when they are translated as "age" or "age enduring". But for those who remain spiritually blind, they need aion and anionios to be translated as "for ever" or "everlasting" to help support their carnal understanding of scripture.

Joe

In the third chapter of Luke, the genealogy begins with Jesus, the son of Joseph, and follows his line back to Adam who was the first son of God. Seventy-seven generations are recorded. The genealogy in Luke is recorded with Joseph's name, but this lineage was Mary's line.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear Der Alte,
Not matter how long a believer studies scripture, it is of little value without "eyes that can see". "Eyes" means to have a spiritual understanding of scripture. Without that ability, the Word of God (Christ) will remain concealed. All Early Rain believers are spiritually blind. It is only if a believer has been chosen from the foundation of the world and has received the Latter Rain, that their spiritual blindness is healed by Christ. Without that healing, a believer will only see Christ in the flesh (with the carnal mind). But once Christ heals a believer's spiritual blindness, they will "see" with the mind of Christ and the truth of scripture will open up to them.
As for aion and aionios, the verses you quoted all should be translated as ages or age-enduring. The teachings of Christ apply to the "ages". Nothing is taught in scripture before or after the ages. The Elect have life during the ages. The rest of mankind will only have life upon the completion of the ages. Christ reigns only during the ages. His priesthood is only during the ages. Judgment is only during the ages.
When scripture wants to express something as being forever, it will say "has no end", "never dies" or "immortality" or words to that effect.
Here is an example:
John 11:26 and every one who lives and believes on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life (life age-enduring):
In this last verse, why would scripture say we have "immortality" and then repeat it as "eternal life"? It makes no sense. The reason two different words are used is because they express something different. Once we are saved, we have immortality and life during the ages.
Look at this verse as the KJV translates it:
Rev 11:15 And the seventh messenger trumpets. And loud voices occurred in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of this world became our Lord's and His Christ's, and He shall reign for ever and ever. Amen!
However, Christ only reigns for the ages:
1Cor 15:21-26 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Once all who are in Adam (all mankind) are made alive "in Christ", the ages, along with the reign of Christ, will come to an end.
Rev 11:15 must be translated as "for the ages of the ages" otherwise there is a obvious contradiction in scripture.
Judgment is also only during the ages and comes to an end when it's desired purpose has been satisfied:
Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”
The "last penny" is referring to the complete destruction of our carnal nature. All mankind will be given a new spiritual nature which requires that our old carnal nature be destroyed. This is one of the purposes of judgment. Once our carnal nature is destroyed, the "last penny" is paid.
Christ says it this way, too:
Mat 21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
After an unbeliever receives the Early Rain of the Spirit, they remain spiritually blind and will be "broken" (fall away and lose their salvation). Their carnal nature will live on and not die:
Rev 13:3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
But for those chosen, upon receiving the Latter Rain, they will be ground to powder (carnal nature judged and destroyed).
Without a correct understanding of the overall truth, a believer cannot put the pieces of scripture together in an accurate way. Christ made scripture this way on purpose so as to keep His truth concealed from all but those He has chosen to reveal it:
Isa 28: 10-12 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
The "another tongue" is Christ's spiritual language. He teaches in this language "a little here and a little there". He teaches this way to conceal His truth from this world and from believers who are "called out" (Early Rain believers). These Early Rain believers are the ones who "fall on the stone" and who are "broken, and snared, and taken". They have "fallen away" and are mixing "works" with faith. "Works" is what Satan teaches as truth and Faith is what Christ teaches as truth. All Early Rain believer will try to serve these two masters but will fail and "be broken".
I received the Latter Rain on Oct 8th, 2005. My testimony from that time is posted in my profile. I have spent the last 16 years re-learning the truth of Christ because none of the mainstream doctrines which I had been taught are true. The church is still controlled by the wolves who entered the church near the end of the Apostles ministries. Satan masquerades as Christ in the churches and deceives the spiritually blind believers by the spirit of anti-Christ. Those believers are being fed a steady diet of stones and leavened bread. They are truly places where the "blind lead the blind". Because of this truth, nearly 2000 different church denominations/sects have been created - with all of them teaching their own version of the truth.
After my spiritual blindness was healed back in 2005, I quickly saw how aion and aionios fit perfectly with the overall body of scripture when they are translated as "age" or "age enduring". But for those who remain spiritually blind, they need aion and anionios to be translated as "for ever" or "everlasting" to help support their carnal understanding of scripture.
Joe

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Man who made you a judge over me?
I can't count how many times people with a superior attitude lectured me about how they are so much more spiritual than I am and accusing me of being spiritually blind.
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture, out-of-context, cramming them together and claiming that they have a "spiritual" meaning that only a select few can understand as you have done. To name a few; JW, LDS OP, UPCI, WWCG, INC, Kristadelfian etc.
In these two verses Jesus defines "aionios" as meaning, eternal, everlasting by paralleling it with "should not perish," twice. If something is repeated in scripture it is important. Nowhere does Jesus state or imply that these two statements are spiritual and do not mean exactly what they say.

However, Christ only reigns for the ages:

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Yes there are things in the Bible that are spiritual but everything in the Bible is not hidden behind spiritual language.
According to scripture God and the Lamb reign for the same length of time.
Let us note that your superior spiritual discernment led you to believe that the word translated "eternal" in the OT is "yom."
There are two words translated "eternal" in the OT "olam" and "ad." I don't think I can buy into your "spiritual discernment."

JohnD70X7 said:

We live in fascinating times.

We now know how much greater God is than mankind has ever known... by the scientific discoveries of the vastness of space, the ability to rearrange elements God has provided in nature for construction, sailing, locomotion, flight, space flight, medical procedures, medicines and supplements.

Even in advancements like in vitro fertilization, cloning, and surrogacy.
Surrogacy, especially; how a woman can be a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people (that the baby she carries and gives birth to is not her own).

If correct, this gives insight on the incarnation of Christ; specifically how he could be

1. born of a virgin
2. have a sinless human nature

In recent Spirit-led studies (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11 / Isaiah 28:9-13) in the biblical defense of the Trinity (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) I came across Isaiah 44:24 (which states that the Creator of all things created in the beginning acted alone / by himself). Clearly that Creator is Jesus preincarnate (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2). Which solves the theology that puzzled believers for 1900 years how Jesus could be the ONLY Son of God yet Adam is clearly called the son of God (Luke 3:38) or other mentions throughout scripture of the sons of God...

Answer... there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son. Humanity are children of God (the Son) by creation but not of God the Father. We as believers in Christ Jesus [become] sons of the Father by adoption (from that faith):

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam= prototype.

Jesus Christ is as human in body as the rest of us... but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

He was created in body not as the first Adam was (fully grown) but went through gestation and child birth to be the [legal] heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

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It is the vastness of the space of the raqia, no outer space exist where the sun, moon and stars are located millions, billions etc.. miles away, that is science fantasy and not Biblical creation.

Mary was not a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people. It was her seed and God's seed that Jesus came from.

Clare73 said:

But in heaven they are the same.
What is reckoned in heaven is true reality according to God.

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Says Clare as she tries to defend her doctrine of sin cursed babies : )

Not just resist, but over-power.

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If Jesus had a sinless human nature His temptation was a farce but He was tempted in all points just as we and resisted, overpowered, overcame, was without sin etc, etc, etc : )

Clare73 said:

Eve was not generated from the seed of Adam.

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Of course Eve was not, Don't you mean Mary was not generated from the seed of Adam? Luke 3: seems to disagree.

In God's order, the fallen nature passes through the seed of Adam, it does not pass through the woman.

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In Genesis 3:15 God seems to disagree. Eve was fallen when God told her Jesus would come through her seed

Jesus was not generated from the seed of man, but the seed of God, as are we in the new birth
(John 1:13; 1 John 3:9).

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So Mary' egg was not utilized??? All she contributed was the hatching?

misput said:

Of course Eve was not, Don't you mean Mary was not generated from the seed of Adam? Luke 3: seems to disagree.
In Genesis 3:15 God seems to disagree. Eve was fallen when God told her Jesus would come through her seed

So Mary' egg was not utilized??? All she contributed was the hatching?

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The discarded uterus lining the waste like dust of the ground, yup no seed needed

Clare73 said:

Yes, his flesh was from Mary, but not his sinless human nature. So though Mary was a descendant of Adam, Jesus did not receive what she inherited from Adam--fallen human nature, his father being determinitive, according to God's law, forever settled in heaven.

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Just noticed you are admitting Jesus did receive His human nature from Mary but not the fallen nature, the reborn nature like we have where sin is no longer credited to us but He Being God in the flesh literally did not sin even though He was tempted the same as we because He had the fleshly nature. Now that makes more sense than what I previously thought you were saying. Now I need to clear up something else. Do you believe babies come into the world lost and if they die while infants or young children end up in hell? If you do, please explain how you came to that conclusion?

Der Alte said:

Man who made you a judge over me?
I can't count how many times people with a superior attitude lectured me about how they are so much more spiritual than I am and accusing me of being spiritually blind.
Anybody can make the Bible say almost anything they want it to by quoting selective scripture, out-of-context, cramming them together and claiming that they have a "spiritual" meaning that only a select few can understand as you have done. To name a few; JW, LDS OP, UPCI, WWCG, INC, Kristadelfian etc.

John 3:15-16
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

In these two verses Jesus defines "aionios" as meaning, eternal, everlasting by paralleling it with "should not perish," twice. If something is repeated in scripture it is important. Nowhere does Jesus state or imply that these two statements are spiritual and do not mean exactly what they say.

Yes there are things in the Bible that are spiritual but everything in the Bible is not hidden behind spiritual language.
According to scripture God and the Lamb reign for the same length of time.

Revelation 22:3-5
3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.
5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they [God and the Lamb] shall reign for ever and ever.​

Let us note that your superior spiritual discernment led you to believe that the word translated "eternal" in the OT is "yom."
There are two words translated "eternal" in the OT "olam" and "ad." I don't think I can buy into your "spiritual discernment."

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Dear Der Alte,
You said:
In these two verses Jesus defines "aionios" as meaning, eternal, everlasting by paralleling it with "should not perish," twice. If something is repeated in scripture it is important. Nowhere does Jesus state or imply that these two statements are spiritual and do not mean exactly what they say.

Your worldly "bias" is causing you to understand the verse as you do. Life during the ages is the blessing and the promise that the "heirs" (First-Fruits, Elect) receive. All mankind will receive "life" but only the heirs will receive life during this age and the final age. The truth of scripture is written for them. To all others, the truth of scripture is concealed.

Look at this verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into age-during punishment: but the righteous into age-during.

Punishment (judgment) only lasts until Christ's loving and merciful purpose is satisfied.

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

1Cor 3:13-15 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Once the "last penny" is paid, judgment ends. The Elect are being judged in this present age:

1Pe 4:17 For it is the ripe time for the judgment to begin with the house of God; but, if first with us, what shall be the end of them who yield not unto the glad-message of God?

If the Doctrine of Hell were true, Christ would have stated so to the "chief priests and elders" to whom He spoke with in the verse below:

Matt 21:31 Which of the two was obeying his father?" They replied, "The first, of course." Then Jesus explained his meaning: "I assure you, corrupt tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the Kingdom of God before you do.

But because of the work of Christ, mankind's salvation is a 100% certainty. Only the timing of each person's salvation will vary. These "chief priests and elders" will be some of the last to be saved but they will be saved. Christ is only saving the chosen Elect in this age. They are the First-Fruits of His harvest of mankind. In the next and final age, the remaining Gentiles will then be saved. Once their "fulness" has come in, the Nation of Israel will then be saved, including these chief priests and elders who were responsible for crucifying Christ.

If the Doctrine of Hell were true, why did Christ say that the chief priests and elders would be saved?

This is why:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Acts 3:20-21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Christ's judgment is for mankind's benefit. Without judgment, no one would be saved. Our carnal nature must be destroyed so that we stop sinning. Once it is destroyed by judgment, all that will remain is our new nature of the Holy Spirit which never sins.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Christ's judgment is not like evil mankind's perverted judgment. Christ loves all mankind and will do what is necessary to make us all righteous and holy. He uses judgment for that purpose. In the end, Christ will accomplish the mission the Father gave Him:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

Why do you and the mainstream teachers believe that Christ is going to utterly fail in the mission the Father gave Him? Don't you know that God never fails at anything:

Isa 46:10-11 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Isa 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

You said:
Yes there are things in the Bible that are spiritual but everything in the Bible is not hidden behind spiritual language.
According to scripture God and the Lamb reign for the same length of time.

All "teaching" in scripture is given to us in Christ's spiritual language. Even the "events" of the Old Testament carry a spiritual message to the Elect.

Rev 22:3-5 is speaking in Christ's spiritual language using physical symbols which represent spiritual truths. The New Jerusalem represents the Elect, the First-Fruits. They are displayed to the lost who are in the Lake of Fire:

Eph 2:7 that he might display in the coming ages the surpassing riches of his grace in kindness towards us in Christ Jesus.

The reason the throne of God and the Lamb are present is because this occurs "during the ages". But once all mankind is saved and the ages have come to an end, Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and Christ's reign will come to an end:

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

God the Father will then be "all in all" because all mankind is saved. No one will be left out of the Kingdom of Heaven. But only the Elect receive "life" during the ages. That is their blessing.

You said:
Let us note that your superior spiritual discernment led you to believe that the word translated "eternal" in the OT is "yom."
There are two words translated "eternal" in the OT "olam" and "ad." I don't think I can buy into your "spiritual discernment."

There are no Hebrew words that should be translated as "eternal". Here is what I said in reference to the verse below:

"The Hebrew word that the KJV translates as "everlasting" is "yom" and it NEVER means "everlasting".

Micah 5:2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting (Yom).

Also, spiritual discernment means to understand the spiritual language of scripture. It does not include any human mistakes that I or anyone might make in making a post on a forum.

Here is an example of spiritual discernment:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

Joe