the standard of righteousness

RandyPNW said:

Well, for starters, you added the word "grievous." I'm not talking about grievous sin, generally. Only backsliders fall into "grievous sin."

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Grievous sin is any sin that the Bible mentions that leads to hellfire or condemnation. This would be looking at women in lust, hating, backbiting, lying, etc.; Minor transgressions or faults do not lead to condemnation by God in the afterlife, or hellfire.

You said:

What I'm talking about is sin that lives in our flesh that we have to learn to overcome all the time, every day. For example, James talks about how Christians have problems controlling their tongue.

James 3.1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.

James, in fact, considers it a mark of immaturity to fail to admit our weaknesses and sinful nature, since it is our duty to grow by learning to overcome them.

James 3.13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth.

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Actually, the corrupted Modern Translations say, “we all stumble in many ways.” The trusted King James Bible that has been around for hundreds of years before the Modern Translations showed up says, “For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.” (James 3:2 KJB).

For in many things we OFFEND all. We offend many because we stand behind what the Bible says. I remember a family member once criticizing our Christian view on sexuality out of the blue. I did not even bring up the topic and they just started to attack me on this point. Why because I offend them without even having to say anything because they know basic things that Christians believe.

You said:

I'll say it again. This is not about arguing that a Christian should *walk in sin.* Rather, this is about acknowledging the fact we are sinners and need to live in righteousness regularly by *overcoming our sin.*

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If Rick threatened to shoot Bob and his family dead if he did not obey God, would Bob have the same attitude about sin like you do? I don’t think so.

Also, you are arguing that a Christian should walk in sin if you are claiming they are sinners in the fact that we believers cannot help but to commit “death sins” always like looking upon another in lust every day, etc.

You said:

You seem utterly unable to recognize that we can walk in righteousness while at the same time being called "sinners?" But that's the truth, as James tells us above, and as John pointed out in 1 John 1.

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Ah, the sin and still be righteous view. Sorry, John actually says the following:

“Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.” (1 John 3:7).

“He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.” (1 John 3:8).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

You said:

We are, in fact, sinners. And if we are "wise," and honest, we will admit that we have this conflict going on, and that we are flawed people. Our righteousness comes in the midst of this, as we learn to train our bodies to obey the word of God, and resist the sin that is in our flesh.

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What does Galatians 5:24 say in the King James Bible?
Read it and believe it.

RandyPNW said:

Yes, I believe Jesus, Paul, and all of the apostles exhorted the Church to be "perfect," but only in the sense that it referred not to sinless perfection, but rather, to "straightening one's self out."

For example, we can get on the right track without being perfect. We can fulfill a mission without being perfect. We can make corrections in our way forward without denying we've made errors. We can take the right trail without denying we're sinners.

Sinners who are on the right track have "perfected themselves" by getting on the right track, and not by becoming perfect. The English use of "perfect" has several different applications. This application refers to getting things straightened out, and not to becoming sinless.



See above.



Same as above. You are not using the word "perfect" as it applies in this context. Words mean what they mean *in context.*



When Christians refer to making ourselves "perfect," they are not saying they are becoming immortal and flawless like God Himself. They are talking about learning to conform to Him, by obeying His voice instead of our own voice. It is a binary choice, and not a transition to divine perfection. It is a choice to follow a perfect God, and not a means to immediately become perfect ourselves.

You are using "perfect" in the wrong sense. It is a choice to do the right thing and to learn to live doing the right things. It has zero to do with a transition from imperfection to perfection.

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Okay. We are not allowed to talk about Sinless Perfection in this section of the threads. My point was in being perfect in certain areas of our lives only according to what Scripture says.

I believe we must in time overcome sins that the Bible condemns with warnings of hellfire or condemnation by God. For without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. To say that we are sinners implies that we are doing the things in the Bible that God condemns in His Word on a daily basis but not in any kind of frequency whereby God would actually condemn us at the judgment.

However…

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes one act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes one act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at a woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

#9. Adam and Eve each committed only one sin and yet it led to the spiritual fall of all mankind.

#10. Ananias and Sapphira were each condemned by God to hell by their committing of their one time sin of lying to the Spirit.


This is why we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12).
But most are in happy candy land Christianity whereby they think they can sin and still be saved on some level. Jesus warned about how just looking upon a woman in lust can cause a person to be cast bodily into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30). Do you believe these words of Jesus?

RandyPNW said:

Yes, I believe Jesus, Paul, and all of the apostles exhorted the Church to be "perfect," but only in the sense that it referred not to sinless perfection, but rather, to "straightening one's self out."

For example, we can get on the right track without being perfect. We can fulfill a mission without being perfect. We can make corrections in our way forward without denying we've made errors. We can take the right trail without denying we're sinners.

Sinners who are on the right track have "perfected themselves" by getting on the right track, and not by becoming perfect. The English use of "perfect" has several different applications. This application refers to getting things straightened out, and not to becoming sinless.



See above.



Same as above. You are not using the word "perfect" as it applies in this context. Words mean what they mean *in context.*



When Christians refer to making ourselves "perfect," they are not saying they are becoming immortal and flawless like God Himself. They are talking about learning to conform to Him, by obeying His voice instead of our own voice. It is a binary choice, and not a transition to divine perfection. It is a choice to follow a perfect God, and not a means to immediately become perfect ourselves.

You are using "perfect" in the wrong sense. It is a choice to do the right thing and to learn to live doing the right things. It has zero to do with a transition from imperfection to perfection.

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“The Son of man [Jesus] shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity [grievous sin or sins unto death]; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire [the Lake of Fire]: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”
(Matthew 13:41-42).

Note: The words in blue within brackets is my commentary to the text.

Anyways, what this verse is saying is that Jesus is going to send forth his angels and they are going to gather out of HIS KINGDOM (Christ’s kingdom) all things that offend (anything that makes a believer to stumble into sin), or those who do iniquity or horrible sins and they will be cast into the Lake of Fire.

See, that is why I could not think like you do. My soul is at stake and it would be too risky to play games. Sin that leads to spiritual death must be eradicated and cut off. We cannot imply we are enslaved to sins that the Bible condemns (even a little bit). For those who do iniquity will be thrown into the Lake of Fire by Christ’s angels. To do a little bit of sin (that the Bible condemns) is still doing iniquity.

Brightfame52 said:

Those whose sins He purged away will be given Faith.

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Brightfame52 said:

Later they will be given Faith to believe this good news

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So you deny Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since only "those" who He died for are "given" faith.
So are they forcebly "given" faith wether they like it or not, or are they "given" the chance to have faith. How do you fit free will into this?
Do "those" He died for have the cappability to deny Him?
Does someone He "didnt died for" have the cappability to chose to follow Him?

Brightfame52 said:

Thats not taking anything out of context, its highlighting biblical truth found within the context. No sinner Christ died for has sin charged to them because Christs blood has purged them all away.

Christ has fulfilled Ps 79:9

Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.

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Yes, a sinner’s sin is purged by the blood of Christ WHEN THEY EXHIBIT FAITH. But NEVER before.

Christ died for the sin OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Not just for those who receive the benefit of that sacrifice through faith.

DaDaBrothers said:

So you deny Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since only "those" who He died for are "given" faith.
So are they forcebly "given" faith wether they like it or not, or are they "given" the chance to have faith. How do you fit free will into this?
Do "those" He died for have the cappability to deny Him?
Does someone He "didnt died for" have the cappability to chose to follow Him?

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Whoever sins have been purged away by Christs death, and then subsequently given Faith, thats who Christ died for.

Doug Brents said:

Yes, a sinner’s sin is purged by the blood of Christ WHEN THEY EXHIBIT FAITH. But NEVER before.

Christ died for the sin OF THE WHOLE WORLD. Not just for those who receive the benefit of that sacrifice through faith.

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Heb 1:3 says the sins were purged away by Christs death.

Brightfame52 said:

Heb 1:3 says the sins were purged away by Christs death.

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Yes, that is when the price was paid.

Now, how many passages tell us that salvation is received when we have faith? A dozen? More?

Remember, your doctrine MUST take into account EVERY passage of Scripture, in context, that deals even remotely with the subject at hand. So while it is true that Jesus’ death paid for the sins of every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d), the benefit of that sacrifice is not received until each individual exhibits faith.

Doug Brents said:

Yes, that is when the price was paid.

Now, how many passages tell us that salvation is received when we have faith? A dozen? More?

Remember, your doctrine MUST take into account EVERY passage of Scripture, in context, that deals even remotely with the subject at hand. So while it is true that Jesus’ death paid for the sins of every person who has ever, or will ever, live(d), the benefit of that sacrifice is not received until each individual exhibits faith.

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Thats when their sins were purged away.

Brightfame52 said:

Thats when their sins were purged away.

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Let’s say I am a billionaire. I buy a car for each and every person on this forum. Each person has a car with their name on the title. All the cars are 100% bought and paid for, including all the taxes that will ever be due, and a lifetime supply of gasoline. Now, I put 4 conditions on you receiving the car.
1. You have to believe that I got you a car.
2. You must say my name when you pick up the car.
3. You must repent of your walking lifestyle. 4. You must come to Atlanta where the car awaits you.

Questions:
Is the car in your name fully yours right now? Yes.
Is it fully paid for right now? Yes.
Is it a free gift? Yes.
Do any of the conditions set “earn” the car? No.
Does each individual currently have the benefit of the car? No.
Will each person get the benefit of their car if any of those conditions are unmet by that individual? No

That is the position each of us is in with God. Jesus paid for our sins. But no one has the benefit of that price that was paid until we hear the Gospel message, believe it, repent of our sins, confess Jesus as our Lord, and are baptized into Jesus’ death to be United with His resurrection.

Doug Brents said:

Let’s say I am a billionaire. I buy a car for each and every person on this forum. Each person has a car with their name on the title. All the cars are 100% bought and paid for, including all the taxes that will ever be due, and a lifetime supply of gasoline. Now, I put 4 conditions on you receiving the car.
1. You have to believe that I got you a car.
2. You must say my name when you pick up the car.
3. You must repent of your walking lifestyle. 4. You must come to Atlanta where the car awaits you.

Questions:
Is the car in your name fully yours right now? Yes.
Is it fully paid for right now? Yes.
Is it a free gift? Yes.
Do any of the conditions set “earn” the car? No.
Does each individual currently have the benefit of the car? No.
Will each person get the benefit of their car if any of those conditions are unmet by that individual? No

That is the position each of us is in with God. Jesus paid for our sins. But no one has the benefit of that price that was paid until we hear the Gospel message, believe it, repent of our sins, confess Jesus as our Lord, and are baptized into Jesus’ death to be United with His resurrection.

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You just dont get it, Christ by his death purged away the sins and guilt of them He died for Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

And then sooner or later the ones whose guilt and sins have been purged away, God sends them the good news via the Gospel, gives them ears to hear, and they believe !

Brightfame52 said:

Whoever sins have been purged away by Christs death, and then subsequently given Faith, thats who Christ died for.

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Sorry, Christ died for everyone who has ever lived or who will ever live. (John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, and many others).

If God’s desire were the only desire that mattered in terms of salvation, then no one would ever be lost, because God’s desire is that no one be lost. But we know that there will be some lost (the vast majority in fact). So there must be some other factor in play other than God’s desire. And that other factor is our individual faith.

Brightfame52 said:

And then sooner or later the ones whose guilt and sins have been purged away, God sends them the good news via the Gospel, gives them ears to hear, and they believe !

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What you are saying here defies Scripture. You are saying that a person is cleansed of sin before they have heard the Word. Before they have believed the Gospel. Before they have been United with Christ in the likeness of His death.

I will say one final time, your doctrine must be consistent with all of scripture. If it is inconsistent with any passage of scripture, then your doctrine is flawed. Your doctrine is based on a faulty interpretation of just a few verses. It does not take into account the vast majority of what Scripture says.

BibleHighligther: "There are unforgivable sins like blasphemy of the Spirit (Matthew 12:32, and worshiping the beast (Revelation 13:8"



Anybody reading, take notice right now, of Revelation 13:8, as I am going to steer us towards understanding exactly what this is saying, particularly the point that BibleHighlighter thought he was making, that the ones who do blasphemy of the Holy Spirit do not have their names written in the book of life....



Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.



Now right away, see the word of Jesus, how it was decided already, that the Apostles had their names written in Heaven, and it is told why, as Jesus rejoiced in Spirit, how these things o know Jesus, are revealed to babes, but hidden from the wise and prudent ( so much for their assumption of death sins and non death sins as they are revealed to know, or not revealed to know and that is how their names are written in the book of life or never were written)..



Luke 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.



Should it not be so important to the likes of Randy, claiming that because, saying you had no sin , is told two times in 1 John 1, that this cements the meaning to him that there is sin nature in man? That now, we can cont, three times, how this is referring to correct and incorrect fellowship with the Lord, and with the Apostles of the Lord, who have correct fellowshipo with the Lord, unlike all who walk in darkness ( which is sin and sin nature)..


1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.



This is that problem again, that the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, ( the light that needs to be in man to have the divine nature of God now)

This is not in the wisdom of man, ( as this is hid from the wise and prudent) but in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God.

Our faith standing in the power of God ( their power is by weakness to not do the good they would, but to do the evil they would not Romans 7 and 1 John 1, they say they cant help but have a sin nature ?)

But that is why the word of Gods wisdom in power, is spoken among them who are perfect ( perfect as Gods love in them works no ill at all to anyone but fulfils)

This is the wisdom of God spoken, even His hidden wisdom..



John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1 Corinthians 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



Now the world cannot receive the Spirit of truth, ( cannot receive or know God and the things of the Lords Holy Spirit) mans wisdom of comparisons which fail every moment they try)

The man, then has his spirit of a man, and we do not receive the spirit of the world, instead the Spirit of God is received, and the Holy Ghost is who compares spiritual things, with spiritual ) not their mans/worlds, wisdom of comparisons, which fail every moment they try against the Heavenly wisdom/ truth that never has hypocrisy)..



1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.




What is hidden in man is dishonesty, they then are handling the word of God in craftiness and deceitfully, and the Gospel is hid by the god of this world blinding their minds, from the glorious light of the Gospel of Christ, and we preach Christ Jesus the Lord, as the light shined out of darkness, shining into our ( the Holy Apostles hearts with whom to fellowship as in 1 John 1 three times mentioned) which gave the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ for them to also have and stop being in darkness ( sins) with a seared with iron conscience, as this is commended to every man's conscience by the commending of the Apostles ( who had approved themselves in being blameless/harmless always for us to follow with)...



2 Corinthians 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.




Continuing on, the Apostles then can say, we were sometimes darkness, now we are children of light ( see the difference?) no fellowship with darkness any longer to have fellowship with the Apostles and the Lord in light, as it is a shame what they do in secret, but light manifests and if they remain doing shame in secret they are not in any fellowship, apart from with devils ( and we cant fellowship with both, cannot be light and darkness)...



Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:
9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth
10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
12 For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.
13 But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.




Continued more, the Apostles, as in 1 John told three times, exhort this world to see what is the fellowship, which was ( and is to the ones of the god of this world blinded by the deceitfulness of sin doctrine) and now the powers in Heavenly places are known by the church, the wisdom of God ( revealed to babes and hid from these wise and prudent)..



Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,



The fellowship is clearly detailed, he fellowship of the Son of God Jesus Christ our Lord, is God confirming them ( the babes revealed) to be blameless, by all speaking the same thing, being perfectly joined together in the same mind ( of Christ) and in the same judgement ( Christ has revealed to us by His Spirit in us)...



1 Corinthians 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.
10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.



Now pay attention to the last, if any love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any mercy ( put on charity it is the bond of perfectness)

It is by being likeminded, having the same love ( of Christ shed into our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us) no strife or vain glory, but lowliness of mind ( the meek inherit the earth) considering the things of others ( not a way out for our own lust and sin to some degree or whatever you allow) which is to have the mind of Jesus Christ, which was the one mind of Jesus Christ. ( not the mind of the devil that is the subtle liar and unclean spirit they talk with, three of them against the three times mention of fellowship in 1 John 1, they only ignore) Believe them not, but try them, many false teachers went into our world, and they are the spirits of devils, to gather the whole world to battle against that great day of God Almighty..



Philippians 2:1 If there be therefore any consolation in Christ, if any comfort of love, if any fellowship of the Spirit, if any bowels and mercies,
2 Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.
3 Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.
4 Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others.
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Revelation 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Doug: "Sorry, Christ died for everyone who has ever lived or who will ever live. (John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, and many others).

If God’s desire were the only desire that mattered in terms of salvation, then no one would ever be lost, because God’s desire is that no one be lost. But we know that there will be some lost (the vast majority in fact). So there must be some other factor in play other than God’s desire. And that other factor is our individual faith."


That's right Doug, what you are saying is not consistent with scripture, (it is all I speak by.)


To us-ward, (to the ones called) and then for all to come to repentance..

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God will have all men to be saved.

Does that mean, as some abuse the word, to be all men on earth saved, or just as is contained in the verses, prayers be made for all men, Kings, for all that are in authority, and all men saved, and coming unto the knowledge of the truth is all types of men ( whoever the Lord calls) as that is who the Lord gave Himself a ransom for, when He says He gave Himself as a ransom for all..


1 Timothy 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.



Then we SEE THE CALLING, ( don't be inconsistent by both ignoring the scriptures here and by not having any to add, do not add or take away) how not many noble and wise, ( kings and those in authority ) are called, as God has made the choice then Himself ( who He died for and, the "all men", who are saved) and here is why, and the wisdom of God, it is the foolish of this world ( far away from the kings but the poor) which confounds the wise ( kings and those in authority) and the weak to confound the mighty ( the rich, kings, and those in authority in this world) and the despised, to confound the popular and highly esteemed among men, choosing the nothings, to bring to nothing the ones that are in and of this world, and no flesh glories in His presence, the ones chosen are the meek to inherit the earth..


1 Corinthians 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

James 2:5 Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
6 But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats?
7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?



I did give so many verses, and faith is not our own, this is a claim by those rich, they think their riches are their own too, but they are not, and will witness against them soon.

Then the ones not chosen ( all told who that is ) do not be given by God to believe ( or understand) and cant acknowledge the truth, but do never stop teaching lies, and this is their condemnation then, they love darkness,, not light, because the darkness allows them to please themselves, to ,love themselves, but if they came to the light ( which no man can approach to) then they are called by God that they deeds are in Him ( the light of life) and sins give them their death..

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

John 8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

DaDaBrothers: "So you deny Christ died for the sins of the whole world, since only "those" who He died for are "given" faith.
So are they forcebly "given" faith wether they like it or not, or are they "given" the chance to have faith. How do you fit free will into this?
Do "those" He died for have the cappability to deny Him?
Does someone He "didnt died for" have the cappability to chose to follow Him?"



Yes, it is well known is it not, we have sheep and goats in this life, also we have wolves, everybody plays their part, the sheep are impossible to follow anyone else other than their Shepherd of the sheep, and the goats follow themselves.

No body complains how God made the animals, all differently, all doing their own ways, and also how we have wolves, who devour the sheep too. Then why complain that people play that same part, some are naturally goats, and some are naturally sheep, that is why Jesus calls His own sheep by name, and how His sheep know Him and He knows them.

The ones who He does not know ( all those, who are not His sheep, see below it is told direct to their face) do not follow, seen in the many disciples who went away ( and just because the world of "believers" does not go away these days, is only because the Shepherd is not in front of them or they would depart fast, because they , as told, will soon hide when the wrath of the Lamb ( the wrath of God) appears, and their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth to them who are workers of iniquity, who did not have mercy in them ( Christs love in them) to love the ones Christ's love, LOVES, as testified in Matthew 25:32-36....



John 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

John 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

John 6:64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

Matthew 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

Revelation 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Luke 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Doug Brents said:

Sorry, Christ died for everyone who has ever lived or who will ever live. (John 3:16, 2 Pet 3:9, and many others).

If God’s desire were the only desire that mattered in terms of salvation, then no one would ever be lost, because God’s desire is that no one be lost. But we know that there will be some lost (the vast majority in fact). So there must be some other factor in play other than God’s desire. And that other factor is our individual faith.

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Everyone Christ died for, their sins have been purged away Heb 1:3 and they are Justified, guiltless before God.

Doug Brents said:

What you are saying here defies Scripture. You are saying that a person is cleansed of sin before they have heard the Word. Before they have believed the Gospel. Before they have been United with Christ in the likeness of His death.

I will say one final time, your doctrine must be consistent with all of scripture. If it is inconsistent with any passage of scripture, then your doctrine is flawed. Your doctrine is based on a faulty interpretation of just a few verses. It does not take into account the vast majority of what Scripture says.

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Dont you think coming into the knowledge of having ones sins taken away before Gods law and justice and being found not guilty of crimes you committed, is good news.

If a person was sitting on death roll awaiting execution for his or her crimes against the state, and one day, before that dreadful day, they hear that they have received a full pardon for those crimes, that someone else has agreed to take their punishment, which the law approved, that now they are free from all crimes, that is good news ?

Does Doug, Randy, BibleHighlighter, wish to know, what the Lord not willing that any should perish, and that all should come to repentance means ? (ignoring the testimony that they have mentioned themselves but without interest for further discussion/seeing all the supporting verses, is not them ignoring at all it is told)



Then see 2 Corinthians 4:3 the Gospel is hid to the ones lost ( not willed to repentance)...


2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

2 Corinthians 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.



As it was mentioned in the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, how it is the sheep that God is not willing should be lost, who hear His voice, because he knows them ( by name) they follow Him ( in repentance) and Hew gives them eternal life ( Himself) and no man is able to pluck them out of the Son's or the father;'s hand, ( same hand as the Son and the father are the same one/ One Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, one faith of Christ, one baptism of Christ..)



Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
30 I and my Father are one.



Take note of the prayer of Christ now, without private interpretations.

The Father gives the Son these men out of the world ( His Apostles/ disciples/ His sheep who were lost)

Christ makes known to them all things of Himself ( He is the living Word) to believe that Christ is of Heaven and came to believe they are taken out of the world that is lost, to be guarded forever to be with Him wheresoever he goes ( in Heaven)

Christ is glorified in His sheep ( the way the Father was glorified in the Son) and the sheep always were the Fathers, lost sheep.

They are kept until they are one, as the Father and the Son are one. None of them was lost, but the son of perdition to go unto his own place..




Acts 1:25 That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.


John 17:6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.
7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.
8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.
9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.




Continuing the prayer for you guys mentioned at the start of this, then all will be one, as the father is in the Son and the Son in the father, and we then be one in God.

Christ gives the sheep the same glory of the Son, which is, the Son then in us, and the father in the Son, to be made perfect in one, for the ( ones taken out of ) world to know that the Son was sent to love the sheep with the same love as the Son is loved ( by overcoming the world and always doing what pleases the Father until death)

Then, the prayer desires that the sheep see the glory of the Son, which He always was and has, loved since the foundation of the world..



John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.




Here is the ending of the prayer. The world knows nothing of the Father, the Son is how the sheep know, as the Son made known and declared the Fathers name ( Jesus Christ) so that the love wherewith the Father has loved the Son, may be in them, which is Christ ( who is love and God is love) will be in them ( the sheep/His sheep who will not be lost at all)...



John 17:5 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.




Now the lost sheep went astray, and the Shepherd needs to seek His servant, who do not forget His commandments ( righteous commandments)

The people have been lost sheep, by turning away shepherds, to make them forget the restingplace ( the Lord is that restingplace)


The Lord then seeks that which was lost, and brings again the driven away ( by the driving away shepherds/teachers of Israel) and heals and binds the wounds of sinning, and gives strength to now never go astray, but, the fat and the strong are destroyed, they received the judgement that was not good to their taste..



Psalm 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek thy servant; for I do not forget thy commandments.

Jeremiah 50:6 My people hath been lost sheep: their shepherds have caused them to go astray, they have turned them away on the mountains: they have gone from mountain to hill, they have forgotten their restingplace.

Ezekiel 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.





Now Jesus answered the Gentile woman, how He is not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. How important of a turning point right here, how Jesus shows the lady, it cannot be right to take their bread, and give that bread ( of feeding them) to the dogs.

This lady ( who has the law of kindness in her heart) is enabled to answer back to the Lord, that the Lord spoke truth, yet, those dogs ( Gentiles) now east the crumbs falling from their previous masters table..




Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.




Again, the break is being demonstrated, all the sinners draw near to hear, the Pharisees, ( the previous masters) murmur that Jesus now talks to others than themselves.



Jesus explains again, the ninety and nine sheep are not considered at all, when it is time to go after the sheep that were lost.

This is the joy of repentance in Heaven, this is who Jesus came to seek..



Luke 15:Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
2 And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.

Luke 15:4 What man of you, having an hundred sheep, if he lose one of them, doth not leave the ninety and nine in the wilderness, and go after that which is lost, until he find it?
5 And when he hath found it, he layeth it on his shoulders, rejoicing.
6 And when he cometh home, he calleth together his friends and neighbours, saying unto them, Rejoice with me; for I have found my sheep which was lost.
7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.




Jesus explains a lot always, how when someone never transgressed the commandments, the same one disapproves of the son that was lost, and now the father found him, how that was being dead ( in sinning) and now is alive ( in righteousness/no sinning, not even occasionally or non this, or non that sins)..



Luke 15:29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.
31 And he said unto him, Son, thou art ever with me, and all that I have is thine.
32 It was meet that we should make merry, and be glad: for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.



Is any attention being payed ? I don't care really, it is all told, so that the end can come.

The Son came to seek and save what was lost.

Jesus immediately tells another parable, how these people around Him ( the children of Israel) sent His servants the prophets, but their answer was only hateful and they did not want to be ruled over by this Son of man..



Luke 19:10 For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
11 And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear.
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.




Then Jesus wept over the city ( Jerusalem) but the city never knew how lost they were, and what was there, that brought the peace, but now they were hid from their eyes ( in whom the god of this world has blinded all from seeing the glorious light of the Gospel of Christ)..


Luke 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.



But to His sheep ( who He knows by name and they know Him/ His voice, and follow Him only, not deceivers voices as all before Christ are thieves and robbers but the sheep did not hear them) they know Christ His own self bare their sins in His own body on the tree ( of the cross) and we being dead to sins, live unto righteousness, to be healed wholly from it ( the sinning) to no longer be sheep going astray, but to return to the Bishop and Shepherd of our souls..



1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Brightfame: "If a person was sitting on death roll awaiting execution for his or her crimes against the state, and one day, before that dreadful day, they hear that they have received a full pardon for those crimes, that someone else has agreed to take their punishment, which the law approved, that now they are free from all crimes, that is good news ?"


Sure, and remember, they are guilty of that crime ( of murder and all evil that is imaginable, what all man is forgiven for by Christ) but before they can be released into society, they need to have a changed heart, mind, Spirit, or can never go into society again to repeat the crimes that Christ had to die for, He wont die for you in any way whatsoever again. This proves, and shows in simple understand ( a child can see it) how forgiveness means nothing without the complete change of that evil behaving man, and how nobody walks ( gets out of the prison house) in the name of Jesus Christ, without being Holy and harmless, as He is first and forever too.