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Okay, hope it opens someone's mind somewhere.I think we all tend to think that way by default, not specifically you.
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Okay, hope it opens someone's mind somewhere.I think we all tend to think that way by default, not specifically you.
Unfortunately the Bible never mentions a period of correction of any length. The word κολασιν/kolasin in Matthew 25:46 that UR-ites try to make say "correction" does NOT mean correction.Yes, Christian universalism - to distinguish it from an ”All roads lead to Rome" kind of universalism - says that we are saved only through Jesus, the same as with any other Christian tradition. I believe that I and everyone else will ultimately be saved but I still hope that I or my loved ones won't have to go though a possibly eon length period of difficult correction in hell before we are fully reconciled with God.
Unfortunately the Bible never mentions a period of correction of any length. The word κολασιν/kolasin in Matthew 25:46 that UR-ites try to make say "correction" does NOT mean correction.
κολασιν occurs one other time in the NT in 1 Jn 4:18
1 John 4:18In this verse the one that has kolasin is not made perfect, is not corrected.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment.[κολασιν] He that feareth is not made perfect in love.
I talked with a friend who isn't a Christian. Her old boyfriend took his life a few years ago. She was concerned where he would end up and asked me about hell. (I have told her before that God is merciful and that we are never to lose hope). I said some Christians believe in annihilation, that unbelievers will cease to exist after death. Then she said: "Like atheists believe happens to everyone?" I didn't know how to answer that. I finally said that those who will be destroyed will know exactly what they have missed out on. She took that answer well. I hope I haven't given her reason to stay an unbeliever. I don't even know if annihilation is correct. If you are an annihilationist, what would you have said? Would be good to know what to say next time.
Please don't use this thread to discuss if annihilation is correct or not.
Edited post.
What is there to go through? I'm right and you're wrong. Kolasin as used in the NT does not and cannot be made to mean "correction."We've been through all this before on the other recent threads on Christian Universalism so I refer you to those. I'm not going to rehash the arguments with you again.
I talked with a friend who isn't a Christian. Her old boyfriend took his life a few years ago. She was concerned where he would end up and asked me about hell. (I have told her before that God is merciful and that we are never to lose hope). I said some Christians believe in annihilation, that unbelievers will cease to exist after death. Then she said: "Like atheists believe happens to everyone?" I didn't know how to answer that. I finally said that those who will be destroyed will know exactly what they have missed out on. She took that answer well. I hope I haven't given her reason to stay an unbeliever. I don't even know if annihilation is correct. If you are an annihilationist, what would you have said? Would be good to know what to say next time.
Please don't use this thread to discuss if annihilation is correct or not.
Edited post.
You are free to hang onto your assumptions/presuppositions but just for fun here is the complete definition of the Greek word "kolasin," which is correctly translated "punishment" in Matthew 25:46, from Bauer, Gingrich, Arndt, Gingrich Greek Lexicon. One of, if not , the most highly accredited Greek lexicons currently available.We've been through all this before on the other recent threads on Christian Universalism so I refer you to those. I'm not going to rehash the arguments with you again.
I don't think my question came out very clear, but my concern is if annhilation rather that eternal punishment, gives atheists a reason to stay atheists. Like atheists can reason if we Christians are right, it doesn't make it worse than if we are wrong. Atheists will cease to exist either way.
Admins, would you be kind to move this thread where it's fit to discuss this? God bless!
...
Quoting Steve Gregg, "If God finds it tragically necessary to eliminate unrepentant and irredeemable rebels from existence by annihilating them (analogous to putting down a beloved, but rabid dog), this cannot be regarded as contrary to either compassion or justice. Nothing in God's character is impugned... However, if God has created a hell of torment that serves no constructive end but merely to take endless vengeance on utterly pitiable (though technically "deserving") creatures, then He will tend to be viewed through an entirely different lens."
Zoidar said, "if annihilation rather that eternal punishment, gives atheists a reason to stay atheists."
Let me start by saying that my comments emanate from the standpoint of one who excepts the general teaching of annihilation, and most specifically that of "conditional immortality"..which "timf" nicely summarized in post#5 - "There is a form of annihilationism called "conditional immortality". It assumes that immortality is a gift from God for the saved, thus those who are not saved do not have immortality and cannot be made to consciously suffer for eternity."
So, my thoughts on Zoidar's comment and concern...Well, if a person decides on living their lives apart from God, then they are free to exercise their free moral agency and reject God's offer of eternal life through Jesus Christ. I have a really difficult time believing that God would even desire a person's company throughout eternity with those that He has to put a "gun to their head"(threaten with eternal conscious punishment) in order for them to accept His loving offer...a "forced love" is an oxymoron.
Some say the devil's greatest trick or deception is convincing the world that he doesn't exist...maybe so. However, the devil may also have realized that he would need an equally deadly deception for those who claim to believe the Bible.
In other words, what lie could he convince professing Christians to believe as "Bible truth" which will effectively divert and even repulse non-professing Christians in their quest for the One True God, or if there even is one?
If annihilation is the truth set forth in the scriptures, it surely appears to me that the modern-day traditional and widely accepted teaching of eternal conscious torment could very well qualify as his greatest deception. Why? - it's distortion of the loving nature and character of the One True God of the Bible.
How many times have non-Christians said, "if the God you worship causes or allows any person to endlessly or eternally be consciously tormented in the afterlife due to their rejection of Jesus' offer of eternal life to them, I want no part of that God". What if they are correct in responding like this? And what will the effects be of our reassuring them that they are deluded and deserving of such a punishment? In other words, what if those who propagate the teaching of eternal conscious torment are in actuality guilty of defamation of the One True God's very character...how horrific and terrifying would that be? These are my concerns.
Keep in mind that I said "if" annihilation is the truth set forth in scripture, or "if" eternal conscious punishment is not what scripture is actually advocating. I'm not claiming to know with certainty either of these truth claims, but instead stating that annihilationism appears to have the most scriptural evidence among the alternative viewpoints.
Quoting Steve Gregg, "If God finds it tragically necessary to eliminate unrepentant and irredeemable rebels from existence by annihilating them (analogous to putting down a beloved, but rabid dog), this cannot be regarded as contrary to either compassion or justice. Nothing in God's character is impugned... However, if God has created a hell of torment that serves no constructive end but merely to take endless vengeance on utterly pitiable (though technically "deserving") creatures, then He will tend to be viewed through an entirely different lens."
I have read through your view as posted but I immediately noticed you did not quote one single verse of scripture in support of anything you said.Zoidar said, "if annihilation rather that eternal punishment, gives atheists a reason to stay atheists."
Let me start by saying that my comments emanate from the standpoint of one who excepts the general teaching of annihilation, and most specifically that of "conditional immortality"..which "timf" nicely summarized in post#5 - "There is a form of annihilationism called "conditional immortality". It assumes that immortality is a gift from God for the saved, thus those who are not saved do not have immortality and cannot be made to consciously suffer for eternity."
So, my thoughts on Zoidar's comment and concern...Well, if a person decides on living their lives apart from God, then they are free to exercise their free moral agency and reject God's offer of eternal life through Jesus Christ. I have a really difficult time believing that God would even desire a person's company throughout eternity with those that He has to put a "gun to their head"(threaten with eternal conscious punishment) in order for them to accept His loving offer...a "forced love" is an oxymoron.
Some say the devil's greatest trick or deception is convincing the world that he doesn't exist...maybe so. However, the devil may also have realized that he would need an equally deadly deception for those who claim to believe the Bible.
In other words, what lie could he convince professing Christians to believe as "Bible truth" which will effectively divert and even repulse non-professing Christians in their quest for the One True God, or if there even is one?
If annihilation is the truth set forth in the scriptures, it surely appears to me that the modern-day traditional and widely accepted teaching of eternal conscious torment could very well qualify as his greatest deception. Why? - it's distortion of the loving nature and character of the One True God of the Bible.
How many times have non-Christians said, "if the God you worship causes or allows any person to endlessly or eternally be consciously tormented in the afterlife due to their rejection of Jesus' offer of eternal life to them, I want no part of that God". What if they are correct in responding like this? And what will the effects be of our reassuring them that they are deluded and deserving of such a punishment? In other words, what if those who propagate the teaching of eternal conscious torment are in actuality guilty of defamation of the One True God's very character...how horrific and terrifying would that be? These are my concerns.
Keep in mind that I said "if" annihilation is the truth set forth in scripture, or "if" eternal conscious punishment is not what scripture is actually advocating. I'm not claiming to know with certainty either of these truth claims, but instead stating that annihilationism appears to have the most scriptural evidence among the alternative viewpoints.
Quoting Steve Gregg, "If God finds it tragically necessary to eliminate unrepentant and irredeemable rebels from existence by annihilating them (analogous to putting down a beloved, but rabid dog), this cannot be regarded as contrary to either compassion or justice. Nothing in God's character is impugned... However, if God has created a hell of torment that serves no constructive end but merely to take endless vengeance on utterly pitiable (though technically "deserving") creatures, then He will tend to be viewed through an entirely different lens."
Unfortunately it is not "your defense." It is the defense written by some other person whom you did not identify who may or may not be any more knowledgeable than you are.Here is my defense for Dualistic Conditional Immortality (if anyone is interested):
A Defense of Dualistic Conditional Immortality
Unfortunately it is not "your defense." It is the defense written by some other person whom you did not identify who may or may not be any more knowledgeable than you are.
…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.The issue comes up by some that Eternal Torment appears to be [ 439 words omitted]
(See Isaiah 66:22-24 with a special focus on verse 23). [Three verses out-of-context]
This means that they will suffer for months before they are destroyed and viewed as carcases or dead lifeless corpses by the saints on the New Earth. How many months? The Bible does not say. But the point here is that they will suffer according to their sin. Their punishment will be no more than what they deserve, and no less. This is a fair and just punishment.
I mean, if God’s rewards are great, I would a person want to take the chance that His punishment could be just as bad. I would not want to face God’s punishment and wrath even if it was for one day (Especially when everyone will know we are being punished by God).
…..Concerning only the existence of a Jewish belief in hell not the validity of the historical faith, beliefs and practices of the ancient Jews, three incontrovertible Jewish sources are quoted, below; the Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud.
…..According to these sources, among the יהודים/Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom, which are translated Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not alter or disprove anything in the following post.
[1] Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna[Note: this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA]
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this verse would be about 700 BC +/-]
(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).When Jesus taught e.g.,
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2] Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3] Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.
• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, outlined above.
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6
• “And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death without mercy is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” certainly does not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say eternal death, in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, [Luke 20:27] they knew that everybody died; rich, poor, young, old, good, bad, men, women, children, infants and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it would have meant something worse to them.
…..Concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,
“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4…..Jesus undoubtedly knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If that Jewish teaching was wrong, why didn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity," which would only encourage and reinforce their beliefs in “hell”?
I am not the one who blindly accepts what "the church" or in your case some anonymous person online feeds you.You can insult my intelligence all you like, but I believe the Scriptures stand in what they say in defense on Conditional Immortality. It’s not a mystery that you love to talk about this topic (for some odd reason), so there is no point in discussing this with you so as to convince you because your mind is already closed to CI. It does not matter what verses are presented. You simply reject them in favor of what you believe. But we need to be good Bereans and not just accept what the church blindly feeds us.
The usual ill thought out meaningless response.Right, and the Jews rejected their own Messiah. They believed in Works Alone Salvationism. There was also the Jewish Sadducees religion, as well. So just because it is Jewish does not mean it is true.