The nonsense of "faith produces works"

Titus Dorn said:

Thank God the gospel is much more simpler and logical than the false teachings of John Calvin and his followers.

What does Paul have to say about how we acquire faith in Jesus and His word?

Does he teach we must first have a miracle worked on us by His Holy Spirit that we may have faith?

Or does Paul teach we ourselves get faith from mentally understanding the gospel that is preached to us?

Heres the answer,

Romans 10:17
So then faith cometh by HEARING and HEARING BY THE WORD OF GOD.

Paul teaches we get faith from the hearing the word of God.

Nowhere does Paul say God must first work a miracle on us to understand in order to have fairh.

The Bible teaches faith comes from the word not directly from Holy Spirit baptism.

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The gospel is the "good news" of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ (1 Corinthians 15:1-4) and is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) To "believe" the gospel is to trust in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith and is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by grace through faith + works.

There is more involved in coming to saving belief/faith in Christ than merely paper, ink and human intelligence. The Bible is not simply a text book that only the well educated can understand. Now although it is our responsibility to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) in and enables us, (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves. The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to believe. We must choose to believe once enabled/it has been granted by the Father. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God.

You seem to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation which in effect, denies the very essence of regeneration, which is to be "born again from above." (John 3:3) This error leads to their denial of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, and postulates everything upon man’s "obedience" to the letter of the written word, denying an accompanying work of the Holy Spirit.

1 Thessalonians 1:5 - For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

Acts 16:14 - Now a certain woman named Lydia heard us. She was a seller of purple from the city of Thyatira, who worshiped God. The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul.

If there is no additional work, or influence, of the Holy Spirit, when receiving the word, then this last verse, which says the Lord “opened her heart,” is unnecessary.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Dan: "The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith and is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by grace through faith + works."



Faith is to be given, as the world cannot receive the report.

Faith is given through love ( no faith is without love or without the Spirit)

Faith then into the heart is the new covenant, a set of rules, as God has made known to this world.

All other talk is without faith in righteousness, as the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.


Dan" The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to believe. We must choose to believe once enabled/it has been granted by the Father. The impulse to faith in Christ comes from God."



Chosen and ordained, as Paul could hardly have a choice.

Notice, necessity is laid upon the ordained ( as many as are ordained to eternal life believed) and others also have no choice, it is decided upon them, they are equally ordained to that condemnation..




John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

1 Timothy 2:7 Whereunto I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and verity.

Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!


Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.






Dan: "You seem to deny the work of the Holy Spirit in salvation which in effect, denies the very essence of regeneration, which is to be "born again from above." (John 3:3) "




Being born again is the works told in this chapter of 1 John 3, which as told is, not doing the works of the devil, to do righteousness ( the work of God instead)..



1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

prophecy_uk said:

Dan: "The gospel is a message of grace that is to be received through faith and is not a set of rituals to perform, a code of laws to be obeyed or a check list of good works (including water baptism) to accomplish as a prerequisite for salvation. The gospel is not salvation by grace through faith + works."

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It's right on target to assert that salvation comes through belief and trust in the Savior and his death, burial, and resurrection. However, for any of us who think that the "other" view is that Baptism is a 'good work' and/or a prerequisite for salvation (neither of which is taught), there's a problem that has to be resolved.

Albion: "However, for any of us who think that the "other" view is that Baptism is a 'good work' and/or a prerequisite for salvation (neither of which is taught), there's a problem that has to be resolved."






Men baptize with water, the Lord Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Holy Ghost.

Believing and being baptized is to be saved, BECAUSE, we shall be baptized with the SAME BAPTISM that Christ is baptized with.

Repenting and being baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, is to receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The gift fell on the Gentiles by the hearing of faith, ( God through the Holy Ghost opening up their ears as with Lydia)

Just the baptism of water alone, is insufficient, believing on the Lord Jesus is required. The Holy Ghost falls on all who believe ( eyes opened, ears given to hear/ given a heart to perceive being granted the Spirit of Christ) they then are doing the wonderful works of God speaking by the Spirit..




Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

Acts 2:11 Cretes and Arabians, we do hear them speak in our tongues the wonderful works of God.






John saw the Spirit descending and abiding on the Son of God. Jesus then baptizes us with the Holy Ghost.

There is greater witness than the testimony of a man, than of John, the works that Jesus was given to finish ( He finished the work on the cross) and these works bear witness of Christ ( for us to believe in, be baptized of the same baptism, follow the same works to do greater works, as the Son goes to the father and is one in Heaven on one throne and loves and shows the Son all things and the greater works are the work and ways of life from the death to marvel at/believe)...




John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

John 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

John 14:12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

John 5:33 Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.

John 5:36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.




It is difficult to believe in the works of Jesus, the sheep believe, but others do not, because they are not His sheep, His sheep hear His voice ( by the Spirit given into them/through baptism of the Holy Ghost) and they follow Him ( doing His working)

Belief is not, in when they do not do the works of the Father ( greater works because the Son went to the Father to give us the Holy Ghost and draw all men up to Him)

We are to believe the works of Christ, and the works of Christ are, what no other man had ever done, and by not believing in those works, they have sin ( are judged) for hating the Son and the Father ( as His word/work, had no place in them)..




John 10:25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

John 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

John 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

John 15:24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.




Remember the work of faith, and labour of love, faith which works by love..




1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

Galatians 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.


Buried with Him in baptism, where also we are risen with Him through the faith of the operation ( work) of God raising Him from the dead, as not possible He could be held in death as Christ is life)

Baptized also unto the death of Jesus Christ, and buried with Him by baptism ( same baptism) into death, to raise up with Christ to newness of life.

By that one Spirit we are baptized into one body, drinking of that one Spirit.

As many as have been baptized into Christ, have put on Christ.

Cast off the works of darkness, to put on the armour of light. Put on the Lord Jesus Christ, to stop making provision for the flesh, to fulfil it's lusts ( need to fulfil the righteousness of the law now/new covenant written in the heart Romans 8.).
Putting on then as the elect of God,bowels of mercies, kindness, meekness, longsuffering, putting on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.





Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Romans 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Romans 13:12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

Colossians 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.





Baptism does also now save us, which is the answer of a good conscience toward God, by the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

The Apostles of the Lord are example, to always have a conscience void of offence to God and to man, and we give no offence to any man, even as Apostle Paul exampled, to please all men in all things, not seeking our own profit, but their, that they may be saved.


Abound in the knowledge of Christ ( to be baptized with the same baptism He is baptized with ) and in His judgments ( as I am showing for us on all the forum) to be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ, as that is to be filled with the fruits of the Spirit of righteousness by Jesus Christ.

Now, the end of the commandment is, charity ( put on which is to put on this same baptism of Christ) which is the good conscience ( the baptism that saves us) and it is then unfeigned faith, and it is a charge, to war a good warfare, holding the faith and a good conscience ( from the start till the end)..





1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void to offence toward God, and toward men.

1 Corinthians 10:32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.
11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 1:18 This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;
19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:

prophecy_uk said:

Men baptize with water, the Lord Jesus Christ baptizes us with the Holy Ghost.

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Yes...and forgives us our sins and makes us members of his church.

But the vehicle is water, and Jesus not only had himself baptized with water as an example, but the various cases of baptisms recorded in the New Testament refer to water as an essential part of the sacrament.

Just the baptism of water alone, is insufficient, believing on the Lord Jesus is required.

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Of course the commitment is part of the sacrament/ordinance/ceremony. Vows are made, and so on. It's not a matter of one versus the other.

John saw the Spirit descending and abiding on the Son of God. Jesus then baptizes us with the Holy Ghost.

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No, John actually used water as well as seeing the image of the Holy Ghost descending.

Albion: "But the vehicle is water, and Jesus not only had himself baptized with water as an example, but the various cases of baptisms recorded in the New Testament refer to water as an essential part of the sacrament.


Of course the commitment is part of the sacrament/ordinance/ceremony. Vows are made, and so on. It's not a matter of one versus the other."




The example of Jesus is told by Himself, how John showed he had no right to baptize Jesus with water ( because he knowing Jesus is the Son of God/God)

Jesus returned answer how it is permitted, because Jesus has to fulfil all righteousness, and water does not make anyone righteous, but the humbling and meekness of Christ does.


Matthew 3:14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.



That is why it is even told for us, baptism, It is not the washing away of the filth of the flesh, (that part does little then) it is the answer of a good conscience toward God, as that part does everything then...

1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:



That is why ( and repeated for you)


The truth shows, the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost by the hearing of faith ( the gift of the Holy Ghost was granted by God before water, it had no part of any ceremony for receiving the gift of God.)


Men were also baptized by water, as shown by John the Baptist, but this was not the baptism of Christ, as the baptism of Christ is to believe in Him ( this gives the Holy Ghost and as said, it witnessed to be believed fully before water is any part of any ceremony. If water was essential, it cannot be for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then the only thing that would be essential about it would be if the gift ( of Christ through belief) would be removed or not. That is what the scriptures show us and confirm.



What do you show us Albion?



The circumcision is also nothing to do with earth, it is the circumcision made without hands, it is the circumcision made without hands by the Spirit of Christ ( again the gift of the Holy Ghost witnessed as received without water being a part of receiving that gift as it is entirely through belief in the new soft heart God gives/new testament and His laws written in that heart to do them)

This also is being buried with Him ( in the same baptism of the Holy Ghost) which forgives our sins when we are risen with Him ( quickened together with Him through His Spirit in us)

Then you let no man judge you in shadows, because Christ spoiled all the principalities, all the ways that Israel in it's kingdom did rituals, now the way is belief ( which way receives the gift of the Holy Ghost) and no man can judge you..



Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.




Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

Matthew 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.


Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

Acts 11:113 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.


Acts 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

John 1:32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

prophecy_uk said:

The example of Jesus is told by Himself, how John showed he had no right to baptize Jesus with water ( because he knowing Jesus is the Son of God/God)

Jesus returned answer how it is permitted, because Jesus has to fulfil all righteousness, and water does not make anyone righteous, but the humbling and meekness of Christ does.

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I don't recall that any poster here claimed that water does make anyone righteous.

That is why ( and repeated for you)

The truth shows, the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost by the hearing of faith ( the gift of the Holy Ghost was granted by God before water, it had no part of any ceremony for receiving the gift of God.)

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But if you are saying this because you don't believe that water makes the recipient righteous, you are in step with all the rest of us. This isn't an issue.

Men were also baptized by water, as shown by John the Baptist, but this was not the baptism of Christ, as the baptism of Christ is to believe in Him ( this gives the Holy Ghost and as said, it witnessed to be believed fully before water is any part of any ceremony.

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This is true, but Jesus had no need of ANY kind of baptism, John's included, so the baptism he submitted to, along with the other symbolism involved on that occasion, show us that Jesus was ordaining a new kind of baptism. This was confirmed by a number of other events in Christ's public ministry over the coming years, and as recorded in Scripture.

If water was essential, it cannot be for receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost, then the only thing that would be essential about it would be if the gift ( of Christ through belief) would be removed or not.

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Water would not have to be essential, but that is how Christ ordained his sacraments--using physical properties in order to make more readily understandable to us humans the greater spiritual truths that are involved. There's water in baptism and bread and wine in the Lord's Supper and none of that would be absolutely necessary except that it makes us mortals who operate on on that level better understand the mighty works of the Lord.

P.S. I hope you'll use the customary style of quoting the other person and then replying to it. Casually mixing quotes from my posts with your comments and also Bible passages is hard to follow and I may have missed something as a result. Just start the quoted part with the word quote (in brackets) and end it with /quote in brackets.

Albion: "This is true, but Jesus had no need of ANY kind of baptism, John's included, so the baptism he submitted to, along with the other symbolism involved on that occasion, show us that Jesus was ordaining a new kind of baptism. This was confirmed by a number of other events in Christ's public ministry over the coming years, and as recorded in Scripture."




Jesus did need that baptism, as we are testified why, the Son is "mine elect) Gods elect, with the Spirit put upon Him ( we see that at baptism showing the need for it)

We are also, the elect of God to be the servants of God..




Isaiah 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.


Isaiah 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.





Then we are joint heirs with Christ, and Christ then had to be made like us in all things ( inckuding needing to be baptized) and then we are joined to the Lord as one Spirit..




Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

1 Corinthians 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.






Albion: "Water would not have to be essential, but that is how Christ ordained his sacraments--using physical properties in order to make more readily understandable to us humans the greater spiritual truths that are involved. There's water in baptism and bread and wine in the Lord's Supper and none of that would be absolutely necessary except that it makes us mortal better understand the mighty works of the Lord."




Talking about water baptism, is different to if we ever use or drink water.



Also speaking of the bread and blood, we do shew a more better way in ourselves, of that body and death of Jesus and also His life in us..



2 Corinthians 4:9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed;
10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
11 For we which live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

prophecy_uk said:

Jesus did need that baptism, as we are testified why, the Son is "mine elect) Gods elect, with the Spirit put upon Him

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God does not need to be baptized. And especially not with John's baptism, which was only symbolic.

Albion: "God does not need to be baptized. And especially not with John's baptism, which was only symbolic."


Yes, God also needed to die for us on the cross, or we die in our sins, needed to go away or the Holy Ghost would not come, needed to be raised up to raise up all men to Him, needed to overcome the world so we follow to overcome the world, needed to fulfil all righteousness and to fulfil all scripture, as God cannot lie so has to do all that is written of Him/needed to fulfil Hos promises to us..

Luke 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

Hebrews 2:17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

These are all the patterns of the Heavenly, and they are what we believe in..



Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

prophecy_uk said:

Yes, God also needed to die for us on the cross, or we die in our sins, needed to go away or the Holy Ghost would not come, needed to be raised up to raise up all men to Him, needed to overcome the world so we follow to overcome the world, needed to fulfil all righteousness and to fulfil all scripture, as God cannot lie so has to do all that is written of Him/needed to fulfil Hos promises to us..

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Even if we agree to all of that, Jesus did not need John's baptism. It's almost ridiculous to contend that he did.

Albion: "Even if we agree to all of that, Jesus did not need John's baptism. It's almost ridiculous to contend that he did."



It is told, that humbling by Jesus is part of righteousness, of course Jesus needs to do all righteousness.

Read the testimony ( or dispute it more) no unrighteousness is in Christ, so had to fulfil all righteousness ( rediculus to say no)

This is how we know Christ is righteous ( to believe in what is testified/revealed) and every one that does righteousness then is born of Him ( of the same righteousness we saw)..




Matthew 3:15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

1 John 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

prophecy_uk said:

These are all the patterns of the Heavenly, and they are what we believe in..

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Who's "we?"

prophecy_uk said:

It is told, that humbling by Jesus is part of righteousness, of course Jesus needs to do all righteousness.

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That isn't unavoidably linked to Him being baptized by John, though, nor was that the purpose of the event.

Albion: "That isn't unavoidably linked to Him being baptized by John, though. Surely you see that."


Having to fulfil all righteousness, and fulfilling all that is written of Him ( it is written of Him to fulfil all righteousness) you say can be avoided.


But it is someone else who needs to be avoided we are told, from their divisions, fair speeches and deceit ( we being all one together in Christ)

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

Danthemailman said:

saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) in and enables us, (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves.

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Danthemailman, Hello, you have Calvinist doctrinal beliefs. Too bad you follow the teachings of a murderer. You are aware that John Calvin had those who disagreed with his doctrine put to death? Sadly, misguided folks today still promote his false teachings. Why would any professing Christian profess to be a follower of this wicked man.

Calvinist's use John 6:44 and John 6:65 to insert their false theology of how we come to faith in Christ.

They see John 6:44 as a direct operation of the Holy Spirit that is miraculous in nature. The HS must first operate on us so to be drawn to the Father and believe His gospel.

As Danthemailman has stated, we would never come to Jesus without God first performing a miracle to "open our eyes" to believe the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Unfortunately for followers of John Calvin, this doctrine is nowhere taught in Jesus' new covenant.

Romans 10:17 is understood it is by hearing the word of God ie gospel, that we acquire faith. No pre-performed miracle on each individual is needed to come to understand and believe the Bible.

Danthemailman uses John 6:44 as proof that we must be drawn by God directly first before it is possible to come to faith.

John 6:44 is explained HOW God draws us in the very next verse, John 6:45. Why do calvinist's always quote John 6:44 but leave out the very next verse? One reason is because of ignorance. Two, because it does not teach that we are drawn by a miraculous direct work of the Holy Spirit as John Calvin claims.

The drawing of one by God to become a believer is quite simple. It is exactly how Paul taught we are drawn, Romans 10:17
So faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the word of God

John 6:44 God draws us, HOW?

John 6:45 by His word, His gospel.

We only come to faith by being taught from Gods revelation, His holy word. No one comes to faith today by a miracle from the Holy Spirit before one hears or studies the gospel of Jesus Christ.

New Testament Christian said:

Danthemailman, Hello, you have Calvinist doctrinal beliefs. Too bad you follow the teachings of a murderer. You are aware that John Calvin had those who disagreed with his doctrine put to death? Sadly, misguided folks today still promote his false teachings.

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The quote from Danthemailman is reflective of Protestant thinking generally and is not distinctively Calvinistic. It looks like you may have read something into it.

Albion said:

The quote from Danthemailman is reflective of Protestant thinking generally and is not distinctively Calvinistic. It looks like you may have read something into it.

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No Sir, Danthemailman is a calvinist whether he knows it or not. He taught what John Calvin on How one comes to faith. Danthemailman's belief that it is impossible to come to faith by hearing and studying the gospel alone. He believes God must first operate directly on one for it to even be possible for that individual to have faith in Christ. This is calvinism and not Biblical.

Danthemailman said:

Now although it is our responsibility to believe and we will be held accountable for unbelief (John 3:18), saving belief/faith in Christ is never exclusively a matter of human decision. Unless the Father draws us (John 6:44) in and enables us, (John 6:65) we would NEVER come to believe all by ourselves.

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New Testament Christian said:

No Sir, Danthemailman is a calvinist whether he knows it or not.

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I don't know what Dan would say, but what he wrote and you quoted does not reflect a uniquely Calvinist POV.