The point you are making is that everyone in the world, saved and unsaved, should be able to hear Jesus's voice at the time of the rapture/resurrection.
My counter is that Jesus said his sheep hear his voice. And when Paul was confronted on the road to Damascus, Jesus speaking to him, his traveling companions heard no voice.
Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
Therefore, it is not a given that the world (the unsaved) will hear anything, and if they do it may be like thunder, but not a voice.
It does not say that Jesus appears to the world in that text. And also it does not say "rescue" in the text.
You totally totally sidestepped 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7. You do not address any of the detailed arguments and attached supported reasoning I submitted on this. You didn't present anything in your response to show that there is any tribulation period in-between your supposed 2 future comings. That is because it is not in the text, or any other. You must force it in there. The burden of proof is with you to prove this. The fact is: the reason you do not is because you cannot. You are arguing from silence! The reality is: 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 forbids Pretrib.
I believe discussions like this always end up highlighting who the real literalists really are or not. They also reveal who it is that truly employs an authentic grammatical-historical hermeneutic. To quote Acts 22:9 to rebut a clear climactic and all-inclusive second coming passage demonstrating the end of time is extremely weak, evasive and very disappointing. This is a totally inadmissible point, in my opinion.
The Bible only recognizes two people saved and lost, those that know God personally and those that don’t. Those that are saved – and have come to the realization that they are sinners and that without the shed blood of Christ they cannot make it to heaven. They have given Christ control of their lives for time and eternity.
Scripture shows Jesus one and only coming to be totally climactic. When Jesus comes that is it - caught up or caught on, saved or lost, eternal bliss or eternal torment. It is the end. No one survives
I will take your avoidance as a reluctant admission that you have nothing in
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7. I refer you back to my unaddressed and unchallenged commentary.
Christ's Advent is not the beginning of the Day of the Lord. The day of the Lord begins before Jesus appearing to the world in great glory and power
Nothing here but mere opinion.
My counter is that in Luke 21:34-36, Jesus said (paraphrased) to be watching always to be counted worthy to "escape" (in the text). verse 35 sounds like the same thing as your highlight blue text. But the saved, watching and praying always, shall escape. It is
the unsaved who will not escape those times.
The escape is the rapture.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
The words of Christ in Luke 21:33-36 agree with 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7 and prove the coming of Christ is final and climactic. It sees the rescue of all the elect and the destruction of all the wicked. It ushers in the end of the world.
Jesus teaches in Luke 21:33-36 that
“Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly]. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
The escape is indeed the catching away that occurs before the wrath of God is poured out when Jesus comes, when heaven and earth pass away, when creation is regenerated and all the wicked are destroyed.
The Greek word
aifnídios is only found in one other passage in Scripture. Yes, 1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:7. It confirms this saying:
“we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden [Gr. aifnídios meaning suddenly] destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
Luke 21:33-36 shows that after the tribulation comes the one-and-only climactic Coming of Christ, which sees the destruction of the wicked and this sin-cursed world.
The phrase
"ye may be accounted worthy" (Luke 21:36) is taken from the single Greek word
katischuo which simply means: to ‘prevail’ or to ‘prevail against’. But ‘prevail against’ what? This text like many would seem to indicate tribulation and persecution in this intra-Advent period – thus proving that the tribulation has been ongoing since Bible times.
God’s people are exhorted to prevail or overcome by being strong until the end of the world when our current cursed arrangement shall be destroyed.
We could therefore interpret the words of Jesus in Luke 21:36:
“Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye (
katischuo)
prevail to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.”
Prevailing or persevering ensures an escape from the sudden “snare” that comes upon the world at the end – namely “Heaven and earth shall pass away.” The prevailing is the experience of every saint that perseveres to the end and triumphs in Christ. They will be rescued before the total destruction. We know when Jesus returns: “the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up” (2 Peter 3:10-12) and that the old arrangement will be replaced at Jesus return with “a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea” (Revelation 21:1-2). For the believer, “we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness” (2 Peter 3:13).
My counter is that if a person is here on earth when God's wrath is poured out, that person is going to be in the great tribulation, which tests everyone here on the planet.
Revelaton 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Therefore, a person cannot be here on the earth to avoid that time of extreme difficulty.
Revelation 3:7-10:
“And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."
Once again you present another supposed Pretrib proof-text that says nothing whatsoever in support of Pretrib. Pretribulationists miss (or ignore) the fact that the promise being given here was actually written to the Philadelphian believers in John’s day. The Philadelphians were firstly commended for their steadfast faithfulness and then secondly, as a result of that, they were promised they would be rewarded by given special protection in the hour of trial. We should not forget that the issue in view here was the brutal persecution of the Christians by the Romans in that day, specifically in Asia Minor. The early Church experienced heavy tribulation throughout the known world where the Roman Empire ruled and reigned in unchallenged power. The obedience that is being documented here (“
thou hast kept the word of my patience”) was that of these early Philadelphian believers. The New Living Translation puts it
“Because you have obeyed my command to persevere.”
We must establish, who is being protected and when? The Philadelphian Christians are promised protection from the said trial back in biblical times. Jesus assures them
“I … will keep thee from the hour of temptation.” Why? On the expressed grounds of their ongoing obedience to God. Their faithfulness is both acknowledge and rewarded:
“thou hast kept the word of my patience.” Preservation in the midst of trial was/is a common reality for faithful believers throughout all time. Whilst God’s people have experienced awful persecution through time, it has often been God’s heart in scriptural times and Church history to guard His elect in the midst of adversity rather than remove them from it. We see that throughout Scripture.
Pretribs suggest that
“keep thee from the hour of temptation” is referring to the catching away of the saints from the earth at the coming of Christ. However, there is not the slightest mention of the Lord’s appearing in the wording of this expression nor is there even a hint of a rapture of the saints. In fact, there is also no mention or inference of an end-time 7-year tribulation in the verse. It is rather speaking of the preservation of these first century Philadelphian saints from the existing evil of their day. What Pretrib infuses into this passage doesn’t add up, make sense or fit the context.
If a rapture was indeed the actual reward for this early church’s faithfulness, then, why did they not experience it? After all, they are commended for being obedience and faithfulness. You cannot divorce the reward from the obedience that earned the reward here. Pretribs say the reward is the rapture. Well: did the Philadelphians receive this reward? Evidently not; neither will they. That particular local church is long gone, and they will not be raptured at the second coming in the future but rather resurrected (as the dead in Christ). But the resurrection is nothing particular to Philadelphians; it is an event that every single church in Revelation would one day experience. It is something that all the dead in Christ will enjoy. But none experience a rapture 2,000 years ago.
· There is no mention of the Church (as the collective body of Christ) here. You add that unto the text.
· There is no mention of a rapture mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
· There is no mention of a 7 yr trib mentioned in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
· There is no mention of a 3rd coming in Revelation 3:10. It must be forced into the text.
Whatever the trial in view was Christ promised this early church that they would escape it. If a rapture was what Christ was pushing at, and if they had fulfilled their side of the bargain, then they would assuredly have experienced what Christ had promised them. But they didn’t! We all know: Christ is not one to break His promise. He is not a liar. He is not a deceiver. What is more, Christ doesn’t make empty promises. The fact is, despite their obedience and perseverance, they all eventually died and went the way of all believers to heaven upon death. This is evidence enough to prove that that wasn’t what He was speaking about. Are Pretribs suggesting that the Philadelphians kept their part, but Christ fell short with His? Did Jesus break His Word? This theory doesn’t make any sense.
Historically, we know that persecution overwhelmed the Church generally in Asia Minor but Christ preserved the Philadelphian congregation from the worst ravishes of the tribulation that unfolded. Jesus therefore kept His word. This proves the Posttrib position that this has already been fulfilled.
“keep (tereo) thee from (ek) the hour of temptation”
What you miss is, the same assurance that we find in Revelation 3:10 is found in our Lord’s Prayer in John 17:15 (only it was written a few years before). The comparison cannot be lightly dismissed as both were penned by the same author. Praying to His Father for His followers He petitioned:
“I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep [Gr.
tēreō]
them from [Gr.
ek]
the evil.”
Christ does not ask the Father to ‘take them out’ of the world with its existing tribulation, suffering and inherent evil, as the Pretrib argues, rather the opposite, but that by the power of His Spirit, He would “keep them from” the surrounding evil. This is the same thought that Christ is presenting in Revelation 3:10. Interestingly, a careful comparison between these two passages reveals the remarkable similarity in their import and word construction.
“
keep [Gr.
tēreō]
them from [Gr.
ek] the evil” (John 17:15)
“
keep [Gr.
tēreō]
thee from [Gr.
ek] the hour of temptation” (Revelation 3:10)
In fact, these are the only two places in Scripture that the Greek words
tēreō and
ek are found together. Not only do these two passages
not teach an escape for the Church from this world, but Christ plainly and succinctly proclaims the contrary. Whatever “the hour of temptation” represented to the Philadelphian church they knew that they would be sheltered from its awful throes. There is no indication that they anticipated that blessing to involve being beamed out of the Roman Empire.
If Christ was talking about taking His elect away from the earth as Pretrib suggests then He would surely have said exactly that. Instead of promising to “keep them from the evil” He would rather have promised to
“take them out of the world” (
airo autos ek ho kosmos). But Christ actual says the opposite, praying: “I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.” The comparison between these two texts cannot be lightly dismissed as they were both penned by the same author.
