The Times We Live in...

Tolworth John said:

Yes it is but it also confirms his humanity.

Click to expand...

I never suggested otherwise.

He IS human. But he is not of the same human race as Adam (the first Adam, that is) but is his own human race (the last Adam prototype). And he laid that human race down to pay for the sins of our human race. And it was raised from the dead by the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit that we might live forever with him.

Tolworth John said:

So according to you Mary is not decended from Adam.

Click to expand...

What?!

Mary IS descended from the first Adam. She is Jesus' legal link to the heritage of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David (through David's son Nathan see Luke 3).

.Jeremiah. said:

You surely have religion figured out very well.

You are very eloquent with your posts.
I would like to ask a question, but it’s one that I have not received an answer to, when I’ve asked it in the past.

Click to expand...

If it's one of those questions "Can God create a rock that's too big for him to lift?" questions... why bother?

If it's legit, then ask away. I'll try to find the answer if the Spirit is willing.

And as far as having things figured out... me, no. God, yes. I merely am listening to him. And so can and should we all! 2 Peter 1:20-21, Psalm 25:5, John 15:26, John 14:17... etc.

.Jeremiah. said:

I surely agree with you.

But wonder why so very few people actually put it into practice?

Click to expand...

The satanic infiltration from the Constantine hijacking of the faith (circa 4th Century C.E.) has most bamboozled and steeped in the traditions of man. ← Which Jesus contrasted (the things of man as opposed to the things of God) in Matthew 16:13-23 relegating the things of man as satanic (which is why Jesus called Peter Satan in the passage).

Also people have a much higher view of humanity at large and of ourselves in particular than the Word of God says. We approach verses like Romans 3:23 like an admission that no one is perfect. But the Bible teaches that means we are evil by nature.

Romans 5:12 (NIV84)
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—

John 8:43–44 (NIV84)
43 Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.
44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

FaithWillDo said:

Dear JohnD,
You said:
Hebrews 10:5 (NIV84)
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Note the verse says when Christ came into the world he said (coming from heaven in preexistence).

Jesus pre-existed this creation. He was created by the Father in times past before this creation began. He originally had a spiritual body and dwelt in Heaven with the Father before He appeared to mankind in the flesh.

Christ is the "beginning of the creation of God the Father" (Rev 3:14)

Click to expand...

That's not what the text says!

You supplied the word Father. It's not there.

Revelation 3:14 (AV)
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;

Colossians 1:13–18 (AV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Revelation 3:14 (NIV84)
14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the ruler of God’s creation.

Jesus Christ was created in body only. His Spirit is God the Word (John 1:1). His Spirit was not created but is eternal as is the Father's Spirit.

and through Jesus, God the Father made this entire creation.

Click to expand...

This is patently false.

Colossians 1:13–16 (AV)
13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

God the Word (Jesus preincarnate) created all things in the beginning alone / by himself.

I must say, the more I cross swords with you, the more your theology sounds like that of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (Jehovah's Witnesses). I hope I am wrong about that.

Jesus is mankind's God, Lord and Savior

Click to expand...

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jesus is the LORD. Our redeemer. Our Savior.

Titus 3:4–6 (AV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Isaiah 43:10–11 (AV)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.

You said:
Phi 2:6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
The Greek: morphe theos huparchon = never ceasing to be God... he became a man.

Jesus "being the very nature God" is referring to the truth that Jesus came in the full measure of God the Father's Spirit. Because of the Spirit, Jesus and the Father are "one" and someday, when mankind has the full measure of the Spirit, we too will be "one" with the Father.

Click to expand...

Now you are sounding like Latter Day Saints (Mormon) doctrine... "God was as man now is, as God now is man may become..."

Again, untrue and unbiblical.

Jesus being in very nature God equal with God (and as I demonstrated in the Greek) he never ceased to be God in the incarnation. How can anything / anyone created be EQUAL with eternal God? Jesus had to be as eternal as the Father in Spirit. And man will never be "one" with the Father in that way.

John 17 mentions the indwelling as being one with the Father and Christ. "I in thee, thou in me, us in them." But that is the current state of the true believers in the genuine Christ Jesus.

You said:
Unless you imagine the Father had a beginning as well, then his being equal with the Father means as eternal as the Father (which john 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 also prove).

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exo 3:14-15 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you. And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

Simply put, there is only one God who is the God and Father of all that there is.

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Click to expand...

Simply put... God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are the one God. Jesus is also a man. The Father is not a man nor is the Holy Spirit. Verses like 1 Corinthians 8:6 make a distinction between the Father and Jesus since Jesus has two natures and the Father (and the Holy Spirit) only has the one nature.

At some time before this creation began, God the Father created His only begotten Son, Jesus.

Click to expand...

False.

Where's your proof?

Hebrews 1:5 (AV)
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

This is referring to the incarnation (John 1:14 / Hebrews 10:5) Note the time stamps: this day, will be, shall be... meaning prior to the incarnation none of the statements in the verse existed or were true yet. Jesus was NOT the Son and the Father was NOT a Father yet.

Then through Jesus, this creation was made.

Click to expand...

Nope. BY him and FOR him (Colossians 1:16).

Jesus is the "I AM" who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Jesus is the one who walked with Adam in the Garden. Jesus is the one who gave Moses the Law. From that perspective, it is correct to say that Jesus is our God and Creator. Just keep in mind that the Father, who is the God and Creator of Jesus and is greater than Jesus, is also our God and Creator.

Click to expand...

Jesus body was created by the Father. Nothing else. Hebrews 10:5 clearly says body.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Click to expand...

The text speaks of position / authority. It does not say "better" than all. Jesus made no bones about the fact that he and the Holy Spirit are in submission to the authority of the Father. "I do the will of him who sent me..." "Not my will but thy will be done." I am come in my Father's name and ye believe me not..."

It has also been noted that Jesus in John 10:29 was referring to the distinction between their positions in that he is incarnate (God in flesh) enduring hardships of life on earth, being doubted, despised, falsely accused by the religious leaders of the Jews... while the Father is in heaven being worshipped by angels.

John 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

Click to expand...

Which proves my point. The sent one is in positional submission to the one who sends. A General sends a Private to dispatch a message. Is the General of a greater race than the Private? No. The General simply has greater authority than the Private.

John 14:28

Click to expand...

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Click to expand...

Again, positional authority. He is speaking as a man (albeit the God man) in submission to the ultimate authority of all things.

1Cor 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Click to expand...

Repeat: Verses like this one and 1 Corinthians 8:6 make a distinction between the Father and Jesus since Jesus has two natures and the Father (and the Holy Spirit) only has the one nature.

God our Father (i.e. God the Father) is our Father only by the spirit of adoption:

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

You distort meaning from that which the scripture abbreviated instead of saying God our adopted Father everywhere he is mentioned... God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ does not undeify Jesus or make him a lesser god... nor does the omission of the Holy Spirit in the text undeify him.

2Cor 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

Eph 4:4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

Click to expand...

Okay, you miss the metaphor here. Surely you do not believe we in Christ have only one human body. Do you? Or do you believe all the believers that ever existed will be raised as one single resurrected man?

One Spirit. This is referring to the unity of the Godhead. Otherwise you have a problem with other texts like:

Revelation 3:1 (AV)
1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.

Revelation 4:5 (AV)
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

Revelation 5:6 (AV)
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.

Isaiah 11:2 (AV)
2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

One faith / one baptism...

Matthew 3:11 (AV)
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

Which one is it?

One God and Father...

God the Father is the Father of Jesus (body). Hebrew s10:5 / Hebrews 1:5 / John 1:14
Jesus is the Father of creation** (Adam etc) John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24
The Holy Spirit / Spirit of truth is the Father of revelation / scripture. 2 Peter 1:20-21

** Isaiah 9:6–7 (AV)
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

The Holy Spirit is God the Father's Spirit which He gave to Jesus and He in turn, gives to us. By having God's Spirit within us, we become "one" with the Father as Christ is "one" with the Father. In other words, we become part of the Father's family when we have His Spirit indwelling us. It really isn't any more complicated than that. There is no truth in the trinity doctrine.

Click to expand...

John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1 John 1:1–2 (AV)
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us

Genesis 1:1–2 (AV)
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

All three God. All three present in the beginning.

Acts 13:2 (AV)
2 As they ministered to the Lord, and fasted, the Holy Ghost said, Separate me Barnabas and Saul for the work whereunto I have called them.

Acts 5:3–4 (AV)
3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4 Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

John 16:13 (AV)
13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

Joe, I'm sorry to say you have some seriously unbiblical theology to deal with.

Tolworth John said:

do read the post I was replying to.

Click to expand...

???

biblelesson said:

Jesus did not call Peter Satan, Jesus was speaking directly to Satan.

Click to expand...

And John 8:43-44?

John 8:43–44 (AV)
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

.Jeremiah. said:

I have a feeling I may see things much like you.

Sometimes I refrain from saying what I’m thinking because of my non religious way of looking at the world. Also, I occasionally use words and phrases that don’t sit well with most people. Such as the word “evil” which you used above. I consider myself 100% evil. Should ANY goodness come from me, it is the Lord, NOT me. Very few people can grasp that.
Same holds for “truth”. It only has one source, and it sure ain’t me.

Hope I didn’t scare you away.

Click to expand...

Not at all. It is refreshing to meet a kindred believer of truth and fact about our sin / depraved nature. Jesus had only disdain for the sanctimonious / religious types and the deepest sympathy and compassion for those who were real especially about themselves. Pharisees... hypocrites...

Luke 18:9–14 (AV)
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Look at David. A man after God's own heart. Worshipful, but not religious. Blundered often but humbled himself and faced the truth "I have sinned."

1 John 1:9 confess = come along side, agree...

All confession is to God btw (Psalm 51:4).

People can't handle the truth about themselves... my sins they can handle?
No way. I confess to God and I am already been, being, will be forgiven ← (imperfect tense in Greek).

Those who try to make Grace into legalism quote Old Testament Texts (like the sermon on the mount) which according to Hebrews 9:16-17 is Old Covenant Law not New Testament Grace.

Hebrews 9:16–17 (AV)
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

It's great to encounter another who sees the truth rather than the traditions of man.