Zephaniah

eclipsenow said:

"Gog" from Magog only appeared here - with Ezekiel reworking the Magog name from Genesis.

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Magog is land area that Gog is associated with. Gog is also associated with Meshech and Tubal, as the chief prince of. Both of those are men in the same verse as Magog in Genesis. As is Gomer. All four men in Genesis 10:2 represent regions in Ezkeiel 38.


Ezekiel 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,

3 And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:

6 Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

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Genesis 10:2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

keras said:

I don't mind the chronic derailing of this thread about the prophesies of Zephaniah.
Both Douggg and eclipsenow continue to make their positions untenable, with their guesswork and amorphous distillations of the Bible truths.

The clearance of the Middle East:
Zephaniah 2:1-3 Prepare yourselves, you undesirable nation, be humble before you disappear like chaff, before the burning anger of the Lord comes upon you. Seek righteousness; seek humility, all you people in the Land who obey God’s Laws and it may be that you will find shelter on the Day of the Lord’s anger. Isaiah 29:1-4

Zephaniah 2:4-7 Gaza will be deserted, Ashkelon left in ruins. At midday all the towns of the Mediterranean coast will be cleared of inhabitants, for the Word of God is against you – land of the Philistines. I shall lay you in ruins, no one will survive. The sea coast will become a sheep grazing area belonging to the survivors of Judah, for their God will turn to them and restore their fortunes. Romans 9:27

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Keras, we are in the last 1/4 of 2021. I don't think there is enough time left before 2026 (the beginning of the 7 years in your scenarrio, with Jesus returning in 2033) for your scenario to work out.

That's only 4 to 5 years for the all the Christians of the world to move to the devastated land of Israel, build homes, and build a nation. Where are those resources, i.e. materials, manpower, going to come from to even get housing, power grid, roads, to accommodate hundreds of million of Christians moving into the land?

Also, taking a hundred million Christians out of the United States, what is left of it?

Douggg said:

Keras, we are in the last 1/4 of 2021. I don't think there is enough time left before 2026 (the beginning of the 7 years in your scenarrio, with Jesus returning in 2033) for your scenario to work out.

That's only 4 to 5 years for the all the Christians of the world to move to the devastated land of Israel, build homes, and build a nation. Where are those resources, i.e. materials, manpower, going to come from to even get housing, power grid, roads, to accommodate hundreds of million of Christians moving into the land?

Also, taking a hundred million Christians out of the United States, what is left of it?

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Christ is not the "last kid on the block" event.

The 6th Seal will clear the earth and even rearrange it to put God on the throne, front and center. The sides of the north for all to view equally. Where that north ends up is any one's speculation. It will be so that all on earth when looking north will see the throne. Then and only then will Christ sit on His throne in Jerusalem.

When God does something on earth, it only takes days. 144 hours is equal to 6 days.

Timtofly said:

Christ is not the "last kid on the block" event.

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What is that supposed to mean?

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

Douggg said:

What is that supposed to mean?

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.

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Well we certainly are not going back in time to the 6 days of Creation.

We are not skipping the Millennium either as some claim. The Second Coming is when we think not and least expect it.

That is what I mean. You all are waiting for the final concert to be changed. It will happen way before that. There is no 7 years, with Christ not on earth. Those 7 years are Christ on earth. Jesus already showed up for the first 3.5 years. And God keeps decreasing the last 3.5 years.

keras said:

I don't mind the chronic derailing of this thread about the prophesies of Zephaniah.
Zephaniah 2:4-7 Gaza will be deserted, Ashkelon left in ruins. At midday all the towns of the Mediterranean coast will be cleared of inhabitants, for the Word of God is against you – land of the Philistines. I shall lay you in ruins, no one will survive. The sea coast will become a sheep grazing area belonging to the survivors of Judah, for their God will turn to them and restore their fortunes. Romans 9:27

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It's called hermeneutics - the science of studying what ancient documents actually meant to ancient people. It's one of those theology things you're allergic to because it doesn't reinforce your CME confirmation bias.

You realise a lot of this is the battle-song hyperbole of the Ancient Middle East? It's common for successful military campaigns to talk of utterly wiping out the local inhabitants - where the language of conflict today is the opposite - trying to emphasise that minimal civilian casualties were inflicted.

EG: In the earliest archaeological evidence we have for Israel outside of the bible, Egypt battled Israel. What did they say? "Minor skirmish - Israel military defeated with minimal civilian casualties"? Yeah right! Sorry - that's just not how military writing from the AME (Ancient Middle East) goes. What did it REALLY say?



That is "We laid waste to Israel and cut off its seed" which means it was such a brutal battle, it was like the nation cannot rebuild and do not have enough survivors to have children.
Merneptah Stele - Wikipedia

Or try this from an Assyrian king. (Note how fire accompanies war. I mean, watch Lord of the Rings again for a good illustration of that!) Pharaoh Taharqa actually got away...


In a similar vein, the bible sometimes uses hyperbole like this. Professor of OT Andrew Shead says:

keras said:

No; I don't, because it isn't.
Because it is a clearly stated prophecy, that hasn't happened yet.

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Ah, yeah, I like this game.
1. You assume it's literal
2. Look back and history and confirm that guess what?
3. No! A LITERAL wiping out of the whole human race from these areas hasn't actually happened yet.
4. Then beat your chest and proclaim "So it hasn't happened yet!"
5. Proving it's literal

All without pesky hermeuntics and language idioms of the day wrecking things for you. Circular much?

keras said:

This idea is not what the Bible says. The 70th 'week' of years was not partially fulfilled by Jesus in the first century.
The 69th week ended at the Crucifixion of Jesus: when He was 'cut off'. Daniel 9:26a

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The 69 weeks were about Israel waiting for the last set of 7. Jesus Christ is the 70th week.

Timtofly said:

The 69 weeks were about Israel waiting for the last set of 7. Jesus Christ is the 70th week.

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I'm sympathetic to this idea but Daniel's prophecy here is very hard

keras said:

1/ The Prophesies are, mainly; Written in a literal style. Things and events that can be literally fulfilled. Allegories excepted.

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FAIL! There are all manner of stylistic idioms and phrases you're missing the actual meaning of be reading words - not phrases loaded with meaning. There are thousands of expressions in English that don't mean what they say literally - sunrise being just one word example, "Pass the dead horse" being more obscure Aussie slang for "pass the tomato sauce".

keras said:

1/ The Prophesies are, mainly; Written in a literal style. Things and events that can be literally fulfilled. Allegories excepted.

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So what - in summary - do you expect? They're going to be literally wiped out? Everyone?

Then how does the next bit of his prophecy make sense if EVERYONE IN THE MIDDLE EAST IS ALREADY DEAD?

Zephaniah 3:9-20
New International Version

Restoration of Israel’s Remnant
9 “Then I will purify the lips of the peoples,
that all of them may call on the name of the Lord
and serve him shoulder to shoulder.
10 From beyond the rivers of Cush
my worshipers, my scattered people,
will bring me offerings.

Note: THEN he will do something.

All the judgments you're talking about will have happened literally = uncreating the middle east and wiping EVERYONE out!

But THEN he'll purify people from beyond Cush. He'll change them that they may call on the Lord! He'll PURIFY them! They're not ALREADY pure - he's going to do this after the judgement.

See how this can't be your precious CME? It's Babylon, going to war. Expressed in apocalyptic literature as uncreation. Babylon takes Judah into captivity where God purifies them. But it's expansive, anticipating how one day he will fulfil his promise to Abraham that ALL the world will be blessed through him - through Jesus taking God's kingdom to all the nations.

But that's getting into boring gospel stuff hey? Who wants to concentrate on that when there's a CME to select for in the bible!

eclipsenow said:

I'm sympathetic to this idea but Daniel's prophecy here is very hard

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Is it hard, or too literal?

"Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks."

Who is this Messiah the Prince?

God confirms the Covenant while on earth. It is not confirmed remotely from heaven.

God came down to Mount Sinai to deliver the Law to Moses. Unless you think God took Moses to Paradise to give him insight.

There is no defined 70th week in Daniel 9. Verse 27 is not the 70th week. Verse 27 is the sounding of the 7th Trumpet for a week of days. This is explained in Revelation 10:7.

After 69 weeks, God comes to earth. As Messiah, God is cut off. God does not stay, but promises to return at some point. The Second Coming is that point. During the Second Coming at some point the 7th Trumpet will sound. But Daniel 9 was not given to the church. It was given to the people in Babylonian captivity. That is literal.


The gap was not about Jerusalem being desolate.

"And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined."

There was no flood in the first century. Daniel is still literally referring to "after the 69 weeks". Not even Gabriel nor Daniel could define the 70th week. Any who see a 70th week defined in Daniel 9 are biased because they are looking back after the Messiah has already lived. One would have to read Daniel 9 without knowing anything about the NT church nor the Messiah to avoid such bias. That may be hard, because the Gospel has gone out to the whole world.

Verse 27 can only happen at the time of the Flood and knowing when the 7th Trumpet sounds. Revelation 11 and 12. And still this is not 7 years. Without the bias of NT knowledge it may appear to be the missing 70th week. How many here are void of NT knowledge?

We know that there has never been a full 70th week, or at least we should know that. Many today claim God fulfilled the whole 70th week in the first century. In fact they use Daniel 9:27, BUT WITH NT BIAS. They spiritualize the 70th week. They remove the literal message, and insert human opinion.

They avoid the point that Satan's angels are still locked up, so how can they be cast out of heaven in the first century? It is still, not until the 7th Trumpet, that angels are cast out and a flood is sent against Jerusalem. This verse:

"And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood."

happens after this verse:

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

The 7th Trumpet is the third woe of Satan coming to earth and only then can a Flood happen as mentioned in Daniel 9:26. So then and only then will the desolation happen as written. Not just the assumed desolation between 70AD and when Jerusalem was inhabited again. The desolation that will occur at the 7th Trumpet after the Flood sent out by Satan. What is poured out upon the desolate? The 7 vials of wrath. We know Satan is only given 42 months. This is not even part of the 70th week, nor the 7th Trumpet. This is the trouble in the midst of the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. The 7th Trumpet does not stop, but has to keep sounding until the 42 months are complete, and the vials are poured out on the desolate. Then this will be fulfilled:

"But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets."

What is finished?

"to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy."

John took the gospel to Asia as commanded, until captured and exiled. John knew the mystery was not resolved even then. Nor would it be resolved in 70AD. Even John knew it would not be resolved until the Second Coming and then on Patmos, God affirmed that to John. John knew the Gospel would still go out into all the world for many years to come. If Revelation is a comfort then, it would still be a comfort for hundreds of years during more persecution and martyrdom.

You are correct Daniel 9 is hard. The proof it is still a mystery, and not finished. If it was finished, we would be living in the Millennium after the Second Coming. That it is hard is proof the Second Coming has not happened yet.

Timtofly said:

Is it hard, or too literal?

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It's not literal but literary, and what it means to convey is hard for us modern types to get. Many think it is Antiochus. Many think it could be Jesus. It depends on which decree from which Persian emperor letting the Jews go home, or various figures in Jewish rule go home, that you count from. People play a few games with the weeks and when to count from and to - but none of them quite work.

But quite frequently the number 7 applied to time means the fullness of time, and 70 is multiplied by 10 - the complete, overflowing fullness of God's perfect time. In this case, it's not so much about actual years and not numerically fixated. Rather, the years represent rough fractions of time. There are many examples of Jewish number symbolism not actually counting things but meaning things. 6 is man's number, the day of the week we were made on, the number of days we work, and short of God's perfection in the 7. Or take a third, used in Revelation. "A third were burned but the rest remained" - which does NOT mean a numerical third, but a scary big amount - but more survived that judgement than were killed by it. Like today's Covid pandemic.

Or take 3.5 years - times times and half a time. That's a limited, finite period of time. It does not matter how long specifically - because it's just saying a 'short' time - not God's fullness of time. 1000 is figurative for a 'gazillion'. There are many numerical SYMBOLS that are just NOT literal in Jewish number symbolism when referring to time. So maybe these 'weeks' are chunks of time illustrating roughly what order things will happen in God's perfect time. But what does it all mean? I don't know. It could be that it refers to Antiochus, and his trashing of the temple. Or it could be Jesus - who is cut off - and then the timing in the last verses is open ended and refers to Romans destroying the temple and then ... we're left in a long but finite period of time at the end of things. In other words, there's a 3.5 there - a finite period of time. And we're in it.

26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing.
(Jesus is killed)

The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.
(Romans)

The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”
(Romans destroy the temple, Rome rules Judea for a while but eventually destroys the temple, and we are left in the last figurative 3.5 years.)

What Daniel's sevens mean is disputed. It's not terribly clear. But we get the message that God was in control, promising Daniel that his people would be rescued from their sin, an Anointed one would die, and there would be rough times ahead. And it roughly works either way - even if it refers to Antiochus - Jesus himself calls the end of the temple an "abomination that causes desolation." This is not a timetable for the future, but about events in our past. We should read the clearer parts of the New Testament for descriptions of our future - which are glorious - but hidden behind the secret of when Jesus will return like a thief in the night.

keras said:

It seems that pointing out scriptures like Matthew 11:25 and 1 Corinthians 1:19-20, touches a nerve with you.
It isn't me that you think is repulsive, but those plainly stated Words of God.
I ask: Who do you think you are?
Someone who think it's OK to reject some Bible verses because they don't suit your beliefs? Someone who plays fast and loose with the Prophecies?
And you surely are someone who judges and abuses fellow Christians.

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AOD in 2026 isn't going to happen. You typify entitled little futurists get 'puffed up' by their bizarre little notions. You condescend to anyone who tries to bring the focus back to the New Testament interpretation of the Old and the gospel itself.
You have repeatedly called people I respect unsaved.

If you were in my church I would either have to work harder at our relationship, or explain why I needed to put boundaries on our conversations and not let you carry out your judgmental rubbish about people I respect. But as you're just one of a thousand (see what I did there?) odd people I bump into online - I can just put you on my ignore file. I may do that for a while.