Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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Douggg

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These two do NOT correspond. Ezekiel 39:28 was God promising through the prophet Ezekiel about the post-exilic return period. That is why God said "NOW will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name; AFTER they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid."
Verse 28, Jesus leaves "none" in the nations. Still future.

As for Matthew 24:31, the angels gathering the elect took place at Christ's AD 70 return, which was "IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS".
Matthew 24:30b is after Jesus is coming in the clouds of heaven, in power and great glory, descending down from heaven to earth.

Matthew 24:30a is the sign of the Son of Man in Heaven. Which is immediately after the tribulation of those days. The tribulation of those days is the 1290 days of Daniel 12:11. The great tribulation is the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12.

In the 45 days between the two is the gathering of the nations at Armageddon to make war on Jesus.

The 1335 day great tribulation ends when Jesus descend down to earth Matthew 24:30b, and executes judgement on the heathen in Ezekiel 39:17-20.
 
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Who is "the first resurrection" in Acts 26:23 and Revelation 20:6?

Who is "the firstfruits of them that slept" in 1 Corinthians 15:20?

The "First resurrection" and the "First-fruits" are both describing the same event in AD 33.

The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:6 was definitely "Christ the First-fruits", and also the 144,000 "First-fruits" saints that He raised along with Him from the dead in AD 33 - i.e., the Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming out of Jewish graves around Jerusalem. The Old Testament type provided for this was back in Leviticus 23:10-12, with a sheaf handful of first-fruits barley being offered (representing the resurrected Matt. 27 saints) along with a single he-lamb (representing Christ).

Who is "the firstborn from the dead" in Colossians 1:18?
Who is "first begotten of the dead" in Revelation 1:5?

Both the "FIRSTBORN" and the "FIRSTBEGOTTEN" are both versions of the very same title.

This title was uniquely Christ's alone - never shared by anyone else. Because He was the first to stand before the Father in heaven in a glorified, resurrected human body. Nobody else can ever claim this title. The very reason why the firstborn babies "opening the matrix" in Israel were dedicated to the Lord was in order to provide a type of Christ the "Firstborn" and the "Firstbegotten". Christ "opened the matrix", so that all His brethren could also eventually ascend to the Father in their glorified, resurrected bodies, and be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).

Scripture speaks of this "begetting" process for Christ when God said "I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning" (Psalms 110:3 LXX). Symbolically, Jesus was "birthed" as the First-begotten Son in heaven "before the morning" on that first day of the week, just before dawn after His resurrection the night before. "This day have I begotten thee", God said to the Son that day - the first resurrected human body form to appear before God in heaven.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The "First resurrection" and the "First-fruits" are both describing the same event in AD 33.

The "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:6 was definitely "Christ the First-fruits", and also the 144,000 "First-fruits" saints that He raised along with Him from the dead in AD 33 - i.e., the Matthew 27:52-53 saints coming out of Jewish graves around Jerusalem. The Old Testament type provided for this was back in Leviticus 23:10-12, with a sheaf handful of first-fruits barley being offered (representing the resurrected Matt. 27 saints) along with a single he-lamb (representing Christ).




Both the "FIRSTBORN" and the "FIRSTBEGOTTEN" are both versions of the very same title.

This title was uniquely Christ's alone - never shared by anyone else. Because He was the first to stand before the Father in heaven in a glorified, resurrected human body. Nobody else can ever claim this title. The very reason why the firstborn babies "opening the matrix" in Israel were dedicated to the Lord was in order to provide a type of Christ the "Firstborn" and the "Firstbegotten". Christ "opened the matrix", so that all His brethren could also eventually ascend to the Father in their glorified, resurrected bodies, and be "presented faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy" (Jude 24).

Scripture speaks of this "begetting" process for Christ when God said "I have begotten thee from the womb before the morning" (Psalms 110:3 LXX). Symbolically, Jesus was "birthed" as the First-begotten Son in heaven "before the morning" on that first day of the week, just before dawn after His resurrection the night before. "This day have I begotten thee", God said to the Son that day - the first resurrected human body form to appear before God in heaven.

So the redeemed have their part in the first resurrection of Christ throughout the millennium according to Rev 20, not just happening at the end?
 
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Verse 28, Jesus leaves "none" in the nations.

The Cyrus decree in II Chron. 36:23 and Ezra 1:2 invited everyone who was an Israelite to return to their homeland from "all the kingdoms of the earth" to which they had been driven in their 70-year exile period. Cyrus opened the door for everyone to return. None were held in bondage anymore.
 
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So the redeemed have their part in the first resurrection of Christ throughout the millennium according to Rev 20, not just happening at the end?

Of course, in one sense, all the saints are the beneficiaries that are blessed by Christ's accomplished resurrection, but this Revelation 20:5 verse is giving us a TIME statement of WHEN that "First Resurrection" took place (in AD 33), and described the "REMNANT OF THE DEAD" who came to life again at that time.

A "REMNANT" (loipoi) is always a small fraction of the whole. The Matthew 27 resurrected saints were only a small fraction - a "REMNANT" - of the WHOLE amount of saints who would eventually be resurrected.

Don't get hung up on the timing for the millennium. It's not that difficult. According to John, the millennium had ended even BEFORE he put pen to parchment, because Revelation 12:12 was John's warning to the church that an enraged Satan at that time had ALREADY BEEN LOOSED for his "short time" and "little season". And we are told that Satan was supposed to be "loosed" at the END of the millennium when it had expired.

Compare the scripture accounts in Revelation 12:12 with Revelation 20:3 & 7, and that tells you the millennium has been expired for almost 2,000 years by now.
 
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sovereigngrace

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Of course, in one sense, all the saints are the beneficiaries that are blessed by Christ's accomplished resurrection, but this Revelation 20:5 verse is giving us a TIME statement of WHEN that "First Resurrection" took place (in AD 33), and described the "REMNANT OF THE DEAD" who came to life again at that time.

A "REMNANT" (loipoi) is always a small fraction of the whole. The Matthew 27 resurrected saints were only a small fraction - a "REMNANT" - of the WHOLE amount of saints who would eventually be resurrected.

Don't get hung up on the timing for the millennium. It's not that difficult. According to John, the millennium had ended even BEFORE he put pen to parchment, because Revelation 12:12 was John's warning to the church that an enraged Satan was ALREADY LOOSED for his "short time" and "little season". And we are told that Satan was supposed to be "loosed" at the END of the millennium when it had expired.

Compare the scripture accounts in Revelation 12:12 with Revelation 20:3 & 7, and that tells you the millennium has been expired for about 2,000 years by now.

This doesn't add up!
  • Preterists emphasize the past, at the expense of the present and the future. Futurists emphasize the future, at the expense of the past and the present. Both are equally wrong, but are right to expose the mistaken focus of the other. Historicists and Idealists rightly emphasize the past, present and the future.
  • If you analyze many of the Preterist posts, they are fixated with AD 66-70 and the coming of Titus. It doesn’t matter what subject comes up or what Scripture. This event is indeed preeminent in their thinking and thee central event in their theology. But this is not the focus of Scripture. The Bible is focused on Christ and His First and Second Advents. Preterism is always diverting us away from the focus of Scripture, the focus of history and the focus of heaven.
  • If God was intending to send a message to believers in Jerusalem or Israel, or a warning to apostate Israel, why was it posted to Asia Minor? Clearly it got badly misplaced. This is not a human postal service. This is an angelical messenger on a very definite, deliberate and accurate mission.
  • The whole book of Revelation was written to local churches in Asia Minor 2,000 years ago for the expressed purpose of encouraging them in their hour of trial.
  • Revelation is focused upon the Church, not Israel or the Jews. There is no mention of “Jew
  • ” and “Hebrew” in Revelation, and the the word “Israel” is absence after Revelation 7. This was clearly not the subject-matter.
  • Revelation covers the whole era from the early church to the eternal state. It is focused on the character, achievements and triumphs of Christ. It repeatedly brings our attention to His glorious climactic return.
  • Preterists say the beast is the Roman Empire. However, the description and detail assigned to the beast in Revelation forbids this belief. The beast commands the allegiance of all the wicked (those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the earth). The Roman Empire never come close to even gaining the worship of all the non-Christians within its empire, never mind all the wicked since Cain. When did Cain worship the Roman Empire? When did Pharaoh worship the Roman Empire? When did the Pharisees worship the Roman Empire? When do the wicked today worship the Roman Empire? This Preterist belief just doesn’t add up.
  • The ECFs speak with clarity and uniformity reference a later date for Revelation. It is notable because that they come from different theological camps, different nations and different eras yet they are all singing from the same hymn-sheet. As for Preterists, they have little of any historic or evidential worth in response.
 
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The great tribulation is the 1335 days of Daniel 12:12.

The Great Tribulation WAS the 1,335 days of Daniel 12:12. The 1,335 days started in the same season when the daily sacrifice made for Rome and the Roman emperor were taken away by Eleazar in August of AD 66. Which began the Zealot rebellion - the "apostasia". The "abomination" of the armies surrounding Jerusalem at that time was the very day this 1,335 days began, lasting until the resurrection day in AD 70 which Daniel would share.

Exactly 45 days before the end of that 1,335 days, Titus showed up at Jerusalem and surrounded the city, just 5 days after Passover week had begun. This was a deliberate battle tactic on his part, in order to capture as many Jewish citizens within the city as possible. Those 45 days later, Pentecost Day in AD 70 arrived, with Christ returning (as Zechariah 14:4-5 had predicted long ago) to stand on the Mount of Olives, with the angels gathering His elect in a second resurrection event.
 
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Douggg

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Those 45 days later, Pentecost Day in AD 70 arrived, with Christ returning (as Zechariah 14:4-5 had predicted long ago) to stand on the Mount of Olives, with the angels gathering His elect in a second resurrection event.
The Mt. of Olives has not been split in half. Still future.
 
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If God was intending to send a message to believers in Jerusalem or Israel, or a warning to apostate Israel, why was it posted to Asia Minor?

It was posted to Asia Minor because John was right off the cost of Ephesus (Patmos being under the jurisdiction of Ephesus). Ephesus was the capital of Asia at that time. From there, it literally WAS a circular kind of mail route to reach the other six churches and beyond. As you know, every one who was a Jew in whatever far-flung nation they resided, would try to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast days.

Word got around. With Revelation being written in AD 59 - AD 60, there was time enough for John's warnings to filter down to every nation before the AD 66 Great Tribulation had arrived.

I totally get that you think Preterists are fixated on the AD 70 era. What I am fixated on is the "First Resurrection" of Christ and the date for that event in AD 33. All prophecy either before and after that are centered on that prime event - like the hub of a wheel. Wasn't that the Apostle Paul's main evangelistic focus also? He wrote that he was determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ and Him crucified - and resurrected, because if Christ be not raised, our faith is in vain. Nail down the time of that "First Resurrection", and all other prophecy is attached to it in some way.
 
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The Mt. of Olives has not been split in half.

In the LXX, it never says that the mountain splits in half leaving a valley between. It says that the mountain "Leans" in all directions, and then "blocks up the valley as far as Azal", just like it did back in King Uzziah's day. This was describing another literal earthquake dislodging rock and rubble from the top of the Mount of Olives, which slid downhill in all directions. This "filled up" the Kidron Valley, and "blocked it up as far as Azal" (the "Wadi Yasul" on current maps, just past the southeastern corner of Jerusalem's wall).

The rubble layer from both earthquake events is still there today, and has been dated by archaeologists to King Uzziah's days - and to the AD 70 era. Christ left this as His "calling card" to show that He actually did come and go from that location, just as prophesied.

Try reading the LXX or the Jerusalem Bible versions of Zechariah 14:4-5 instead of the usual go-to KJV and others.
 
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Preterists say the beast is the Roman Empire. However, the description and detail assigned to the beast in Revelation forbids this belief. The beast commands the allegiance of all the wicked (those whose names are not in the Lamb's book of life from the foundation of the earth). The Roman Empire never come close to even gaining the worship of all the non-Christians within its empire, never mind all the wicked since Cain. When did Cain worship the Roman Empire? When did Pharaoh worship the Roman Empire? When did the Pharisees worship the Roman Empire? When do the wicked today worship the Roman Empire? This Preterist belief just doesn’t add up.

It was "those on the EARTH", or "all the EARTH" that the Land Beast would deceive and compel under threat of death to give homage to the Sea Beast. This "EARTH" term is "tes ges", which to a Jew meant ever and always "the LAND of Israel" - not the entire globe. The Land Beast or the "Beast which came up out of the EARTH" in Revelation 13:11 was JUDEAN in character, with its lying, two-horned Pharisee / Sadducee religious leadership. It did indeed make everyone in the earth (either those in or coming to the land of Israel) offer homage to the Roman Sea Beast by the REQUIRED usage of the Tyrian shekel coins. Rome had authorized the priesthood to use these Tyrian shekel coins in the Temple, for sales and purchases of sacrificial items. The high priesthood had required the use of this abominable Tyrian shekel ever since 19 BC, when Herod had begun his expensive Temple renovations - and which needed Jewish funds to build.

Follow the money!

Each Tyrian shekel coin had Rome's stamped initials on it. This Tyrian shekel had an abominable image of Rome's demi-god Herakles / Hercules, which God had told Israel was an "abomination" and a "cursed thing" in His eyes back in Deut. 7:25-26. The Temple's money-changers in Christ's day were making a tidy profit in the Temple from charging fees for the exchange of foreign currency for the REQUIRED Tyrian shekel. To obey their corrupt high priesthood instead of God meant that those in Israel were being tempted to give homage to Rome's pagan god on their coins, instead of God's rule NOT to do so.
 
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As for Preterists, they have little of any historic or evidential worth in response.

Perhaps you have not encountered anyone yet who has gone down the list of historical records and shown how they mirror Revelation prophesies, word for word. I've been trying to supply some of that historic evidence, one post at a time - even though most will probably not consider it as evidence. That's okay. I love to write anyway. And I LOVE my promise-keeping, date-fulfilling Saviour.
 
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Are you forgetting that Jesus left physically & visibly, that the angels present at His ascent said He will return IN LIKE MANNER, and that Jesus Himself said He will return IN GREAT POWER & GLORY, adding in Rev. 1:7 that every eye will see Him, even the eyes of those who pierced Him?

Yes, Jesus is SPIRITUALLY with me, & is Spiritually present wherever/whenever 2 or more are gathered in His name. I believe that includes electronically, so, we'd all better watch what we post on Christian sites.
I didn't forget, because they saw Him go into heaven when a cloud took Him out of their sight. That's exactly what Jesus told those who pierced Him. Matthew 26:Jesus said to him, “You have said so. But I tell you, from now on you will see the Son of Man seated at the right hand of Power and coming on the clouds of heaven.” Which is exactly what Rev 1:7 says: "Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen." Nothing about Him descending from the clouds to the earth with His disciples watching Him in His flesh. That would contradict when He told the disciples they would no longer know Him after the flesh.
 
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sovereigngrace

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It was posted to Asia Minor because John was right off the cost of Ephesus (Patmos being under the jurisdiction of Ephesus). Ephesus was the capital of Asia at that time. From there, it literally WAS a circular kind of mail route to reach the other six churches and beyond. As you know, every one who was a Jew in whatever far-flung nation they resided, would try to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feast days.

Word got around. With Revelation being written in AD 59 - AD 60, there was time enough for John's warnings to filter down to every nation before the AD 66 Great Tribulation had arrived.

I totally get that you think Preterists are fixated on the AD 70 era. What I am fixated on is the "First Resurrection" of Christ and the date for that event in AD 33. All prophecy either before and after that are centered on that prime event - like the hub of a wheel. Wasn't that the Apostle Paul's main evangelistic focus also? He wrote that he was determined to know nothing among them but Jesus Christ and Him crucified - and resurrected, because if Christ be not raised, our faith is in vain. Nail down the time of that "First Resurrection", and all other prophecy is attached to it in some way.

Sadly, check their posts, all that Preterists want to talk about Titus and AD70. It is a faulty focus.
 
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sovereigngrace

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The 0.1% was Revelation 10:4 and the "SEALED UP" prophecies that weren't written. But I'd also like to know what Lost4words thinks this percentage is.

Can you address all the avoided questions?
 
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I'll stick my nose in here again. Very simple answer. We are told in Revelation 20:5 that the millennium ended with the "First Resurrection" - of Christ and the Matthew 27 saints raised in AD 33. A literal thousand years prior, the physical Temple system was inaugurated with Solomon laying the foundation stone for the Temple in 968/967 BC.
Actually the Millennium started with a resurrection in Revelation 20:4-5.
 
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Douggg

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The Cyrus decree in II Chron. 36:23 and Ezra 1:2 invited everyone who was an Israelite to return to their homeland from "all the kingdoms of the earth" to which they had been driven in their 70-year exile period. Cyrus opened the door for everyone to return. None were held in bondage anymore.
That's different from none left in the nations.
 
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