the standard of righteousness

Clare73 · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Christs death actually Justified them He died for before they had faith. Faith would later be given the Justified to show them their Justification by Christ, hence the Just shall live by Faith, but they have to be Just first.

Not quite what the NT presents.

Christ's death justifies those who believe, and only when they believe.
In the sphere of time, they are not actually justified before they believe.

We are justified by faith (apart from its works).
We are justified through faith (without its works).
Scriptures presented to you in post #117.

The NT presents faith as the means of justification, not the result of justification.

hence the Just shall live by Faith, but they have to be Just first.

The just shall have eternal life by faith, and not by law keeping (Galatians 3:11-14).

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
Not quite what the NT presents.

Christ's death justifies those who believe, and only when they believe.
They are not actually justified in time before they believe.

We are justified by faith (apart from its works).
We are justified through faith (without itw works).

The NT presents faith as the means of justification, not the result of justification.

hence the Just shall live by Faith, but they have to be Just first.

The just shall have eternal life by faith, not by law keeping (Galatians 3:11-14).[/QUOTE]
Christs death Justifes them He died for then they believe.

Doug Brents · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
They received the benefit of Christs obedience without faith. Rom 5:18-19

That interpretation would result in everyone from all time would be saved. But we know that the vast majority of humanity will be lost.

If there is no faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith we cannot be “in Christ”. If we are not “in Christ” we are not saved.

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

Doug Brents said:
That interpretation would result in everyone from all time would be saved. But we know that the vast majority of humanity will be lost.

If there is no faith it is impossible to please God. Without faith we cannot be “in Christ”. If we are not “in Christ” we are not saved.

No it doesnt, not by a long shot ! It applies exclusively to the Justified, which all are not !

Bible Highlighter · Sep 1, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
Yes, anyone who believes on the Son, may be assured he has eternal life.
1 John 2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
John speaks in the present because God is so true to His word that you can say you already have it. But we still have to face death, right? We are not eternal yet. After death, judgement, and only after all this, will we eat of the Tree of Life, and will have eternal life.

In order to have eternal life you must believe in Jesus and abide in Him.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
To abide in Him is to keep His word, His commandments, and walk even as He walked.
1 John 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1 John 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So, until you keep His word, His commandments, and walk even as He walked (without sin) you dont have the Son, and you dont have eternal life.

She was forgiven, not saved. You are using the word saved to say forgiven. She must endure to the end before she is really saved.

Again using the word saved to say forgiven, forgiven by God’s Grace. Now the person can walk without sin.

Salvation doesn’t continue, life does, and it continues because she is not saved yet, and is still up for judgement, if she were saved she would be in heaven.
Salvation is the point in time when God saves you from hell, then you are saved, until then you are beeing judged.

You don’t have eternal life until you believe and have the Son, and in order to have the Son you must do the works too, faith without works is dead. The works that determine if you are saved are those mentioned in 1 John : walk even as He walked, don’t sin, keep His commandments, keep His word.. You want to call it "saved" because you read 4 verses? I know you dont believe someone is "saved" right there, because you have your 2nd side of the coin where the real salvation is. So why call it "initially saved" if they are not saved?

Yes, not only me but Scripture too. You must do the works of faith to have true faith in the Son and abide in Him, then your true belief will save you and abiding in him will grant you eternal life. But if by "saving grace" you mean forgiven, no, you dont need to work to be forgiven, He is rich in mercy and will forgive our sin, so we can get back up and live for Him, and "sin no more".

Belief alone is death, you are not saved by dead faith. Either do the works or you have no faith. If by "salvation" you mean forgiven, yes, He is willing to forgive our sins, so you can "go and sin no more", because now you know what your sin did to the Lord.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

Maybe they were deceived ? They tought they were "saved" when they werent. Scripture is clear, they "seemeth to have" but they didnt have anything, and even their joy will be taken away.

So it is clear you must believe on the Son to be saved, and you know what believe on the Son implies.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Dont deceive yourself, dont say you believe on Him and sin, dont say you abide in Him and sin, dont say you have eternal life if you dont have the Son, dont say you are saved because that is up for God to decide..
And dont use the word "saved" when you have the word forgiven. Reading four verses doesnt "save" anyone, believe on the Son instead, and I mean true faith with works.

Okay. Your preaching to the choir. As I told you before, I do not believe in Belief Alone-ism. I believe that all true saints who are able to live out their faith will enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (after they are saved by God’s grace). But it appears that you do not accept those verses on being saved by God’s grace initially (Please read again carefully: Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5, Romans 11:6, and 1 John 5:13). For you are saying that forgiveness is not dealing with salvation. Sorry, that just is going against all logic in not wanting to see what the Bible says and common logic.

“to give his people the knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins,” (Luke 1:77) (NIV).

May God bless you (even if we disagree with Scripture).

Doug Brents · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
No it doesnt, not by a long shot ! It applies exclusively to the Justified, which all are not !

You cannot have it both ways. Either there is a human input component to salvation: faith, or Gods gift on the Cross cleanses all mankind without faith (as you claimed).

Yes, all mankind has the opportunity to benefit from Jesus’ death (as it says in Rom 5:18-19), but not everyone will. Why? Because not everyone will exhibit faith. The benefit of Jesus sacrifice does not accrue to an individual until that individual exhibits faith, as it says in Eph 2:8-9.

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

Doug Brents said:
You cannot have it both ways. Either there is a human input component to salvation: faith, or Gods gift on the Cross cleanses all mankind without faith (as you claimed).

Yes, all mankind has the opportunity to benefit from Jesus’ death (as it says in Rom 5:18-19), but not everyone will. Why? Because not everyone will exhibit faith. The benefit of Jesus sacrifice does not accrue to an individual until that individual exhibits faith, as it says in Eph 2:8-9.

What you mean both ways. Only the Justified are Justified. And the Justified will be given the gift of Faith.

Doug Brents · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
What you mean both ways. Only the Justified are Justified. And the Justified will be given the gift of Faith.

NO! Faith is NOT the gift we receive from God. The thing we have faith in is the gift of God. Salvation itself is the gift of God. Faith is our response to hearing the Gospel (Rom 10:17, James 2:14-26).

Bible Highlighter · Sep 1, 2021

@DaDaBrothers

You basically said that forgiveness of sins is not about salvation.

Here is another verse that says that forgiveness of sins is tied to salvation.

48 ”And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.
49 And they that sat at meat with him began to say within themselves, Who is this that forgiveth sins also?
50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.”
(Luke 7:48-50).

What was the manifested fruits of her faith?

44 “And he turned to the woman, and said unto Simon, Seest thou this woman? I entered into thine house, thou gavest me no water for my feet: but she hath washed my feet with tears, and wiped them with the hairs of her head.
45 Thou gavest me no kiss: but this woman since the time I came in hath not ceased to kiss my feet.” (Luke 7:44-45).

While we do need to obey God’s commands, this does not sound like she was obeying a certain set of commands from God via by faith, but it sounds like she was already saved by faith in God’s grace beforehand and she was naturally being loving and thankful because she was forgiven. For Jesus said:

“Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.” (Luke 7:47).

So the woman was thankful that her many sins were forgiven her, and it was her faith in Christ that led to her thankfulness. Her faith in God’s grace saved her. She was genuinely forgiven. Meaning she was saved by faith by God’s grace. Ephesians 2:8-9.

In your view on things: You would think that woman was forgiven of her sins and not saved. Such a scenario would not make any sense if that is what you believe. For the reason why she was crying and thankful was because she was saved. A lost person would not be thankful if forgiveness of sins did not mean salvation. For what exactly is she thankful for? That she is still lost and on her way to hell and yet forgiven? Yeah, that makes no sense.

Romans 11:6 should be a verse that should give you major problems.

Romans 11:6 says,
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”

How exactly does this verse work in your view of Soteriology that says that faith is works? For if it be of works (works ALONE) then it is no more grace. I believe this verse with no problem because Paul is referring to Initial Salvation and he is referring to Works ALONE Salvationism without God’s grace. But what you propose sounds exactly what the apostle Paul condemned in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:3-5.

In any event, I think it is best we should agree to disagree and move on. I cannot force you to see what the Bible plainly teaches, friend.

Anyways, may God’s love shine upon you today (even if we disagree strongly on Scripture).

DaDaBrothers · Sep 1, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
I do not believe in Belief Alone-ism.

Right, I know you don’t. So why called them "initially saved" if they are not saved?
This is why you shouldn’t use the word "saved" there to say they are forgiven and have a chance. You know they are not saved yet, so are you knowingly deceiving them?

Only those who bare fruit were saved, but you were saying the rock is "initially saved for a while" when it is not. So why say the rock is "saved" by the seed if you know it isn’t?

The life is in the Son, you must believe on Him first, then you can say you have life.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

It is evident no one is "saved" by dead faith, only deceived.

Bible Highlighter said:
You basically said that forgiveness of sins is not about salvation.

Nope, I said she was forgiven, not saved. It is "about" salvation, but not salvation itself. Salvation itself is the Grace of God. What you call "Initially saved" is actually "Initially forgiven".
Now this woman, first she believed on the Lord Jesus (truly):
Luke 7:38 And stood at his feet behind him weeping, and began to wash his feet with tears, and did wipe them with the hairs of her head, and kissed his feet, and anointed them with the ointment.

She repented of her sins, she asked for forgiveness, she pleased the Lord (faith pleases the Lord) and she loved the Lord (keep my commandments) right ? Even tho it doesn’t mechanically say here like it does in 1 John, you can see that washin His feet and wipe them with the hairs is very pleasing to us, but the Lord is pleased by faith, and kisses is a sign of love, those who love Him keep His commandments, so all this to say first you truly believe in the Lord with works and all.

Then she is forgiven because she loved the Lord:
Luke 7:47 Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little.
She was saved because she believed (true faith).

Basically there is always a work of faith that has to be done first, then you are forgiven. Endure to the end and you will be saved.

So we have been all over the bible, I showed you one parable to tell you, first you bare fruit then you are saved, not "initially saved" by receiving the seed. You went everywhere else in the bible looking for something, I have answerd all your questions.
Now please, you have been shown, abstain from using the word "saved" or "salvation" especially when you are talking about people who are not saved yet. I hope they will, but we must stick to the truth. They have been forgiven, if they want to be saved they must do the works of faith in 1 John.

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

Doug Brents said:
NO! Faith is NOT the gift we receive from God. The thing we have faith in is the gift of God. Salvation itself is the gift of God. Faith is our response to hearing the Gospel (Rom 10:17, James 2:14-26).

Its really simple, the Justified will be given Faith.

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

dadabro

Nope, I said she was forgiven, not saved.

They are the same, forgiveness and Salvation Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

DaDaBrothers · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
They are the same, forgiveness and Salvation

They are the same on judgement day, there, if God forgives you, you are saved. But while we are still living beeing forgiven does not automatically land you in heaven, you can be forgiven, and then fall away from the faith and go back into sin, if you do so you wont be saved, neither can you repent again.

pescador · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
dadabro

They are the same, forgiveness and Salvation Lk 1:77
77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Here is the complete sentence from Luke's gospel, verses 1:76-77, quoting from Zechariah's praise, "And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High. For you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give his people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins."

Notice that this is talking about John the Baptist, "who will go before the Lord...", not Jesus. Zechariah was, of course, John's father

pescador · Sep 1, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
They are the same on judgement day, there, if God forgives you, you are saved. But while we are still living beeing forgiven does not automatically land you in heaven, you can be forgiven, and then fall away from the faith and go back into sin, if you do so you wont be saved, neither can you repent again.

John 10:28-30, " I give them eternal life, and they will never perish; no one will snatch them from my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can snatch them from my Father’s hand. The Father and I are one.”

That's what Jesus said, which disagrees with your doctrine.

prophecy_uk · Sep 1, 2021

BibleHighlighter: "I believe that all true saints who are able to live out their faith will enter the Sanctification Process as a part of salvation (after they are saved by God’s grace)."

Saved by Gods grace is by the WISDOM AND KNOWLEDGE AND STRENGTH OF THE LORD, the FEAR OF THE LORD, as the Holy scriptures make us WISE TO SALVATION, for instruction in righteousness and to be perfect, and it is the Holy Ghost that comes to us to teach us all things or we can understand/believe in nothing without the Spirit given into us to believe/call with..

Isaiah 33:6 And wisdom and knowledge shall be the stability of thy times, and strength of salvation: the fear of the Lord is his treasure.

Luke 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Doug Brents · Sep 1, 2021

Brightfame52 said:
Its really simple, the Justified will be given Faith.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying.

What you are saying is that after they have been justified, those who have been justified will be given the conduit through which justification comes?

We are justified as a result of grace.
Grace is received as a result of faith.
Faith comes from hearing the Word.

prophecy_uk · Sep 1, 2021

Doug : "NO! Faith is NOT the gift we receive from God. The thing we have faith in is the gift of God. Salvation itself is the gift of God. Faith is our response to hearing the Gospel (Rom 10:17, James 2:14-26)."

OK Doug, if they responded in faith to hearing the Gospel, who gave them their ears to hear with, to believe in the report, to be enabled to obey ?

Romans 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Is this the problem then, people do not recognize the testimony in this chapter of Romans 10, that the Gentiles did not seek God, but God was reaching out to Israel, until God killed them and called His servants by another name, ( first called Christians at Antioch) then they bless themselves knowing TRUTH ( believing the report)..

Isaiah 65:15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:
16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Romans 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.
21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

Follow it and see, how the Gentiles did not follow after God, but Israel sought without faith ( they were never given to believe) but stumbled at Christ by being offended in Him ( His word having no place in them..

Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

It's a very easy thing to show, but it shows nobody cares in this thread or in this forum to try to set anything straight, they are interested only in debate, and blaspheming the Holy Ghost, because talk is worthless.

Yet they believed not on Christ, to fulfil the saying, who believed the report ?

The arm of Christ was not revealed, as it has to be, or nobody can believe, by having blinded eyes, and that hardened stony heart, no conversion by being gifted faith, which is God calling us and Him writing the new covenant in our heart of soft flesh..

John 12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Matthew 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
They are the same on judgement day, there, if God forgives you, you are saved. But while we are still living beeing forgiven does not automatically land you in heaven, you can be forgiven, and then fall away from the faith and go back into sin, if you do so you wont be saved, neither can you repent again.

They are the same now !

Brightfame52 · Sep 1, 2021

pescador said:
Here is the complete sentence from Luke's gospel, verses 1:76-77, quoting from Zechariah's praise, "And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Most High. For you will go before the Lord to prepare his ways, to give his people knowledge of salvation through the forgiveness of their sins."

Notice that this is talking about John the Baptist, "who will go before the Lord...", not Jesus. Zechariah was, of course, John's father

I know the context, you need to pay attention to what is stated in the verse found in the context.

the standard of righteousness

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