boughtwithaprice
Legend
Are you saying that Jesus did not have the authority to confer the keys to the kingdom of heaven onto Peter?
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Seventh-day Adventist Church is sola-scriptura testing - but not sola-tradition testing
- Thread starter BobRyan
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Are you saying that Jesus did not have the authority to confer the keys to the kingdom of heaven onto Peter?
boughtwithaprice
Legend
Your scripture quotes have nothing to do with what Francis was saying. The proper scripture reference is
1 Corinthians 1
[1] I therefore, a prisoner in the Lord, beseech you that you walk worthy of the vocation in which you are called, [2] With all humility and mildness, with patience, supporting one another in charity. [3] Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism.
[6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all.
The Pope does not claim to be God, and does not claim impeccability. Infallibility means that he is prevented by the Holy Spirit from teaching error. It does not mean he is a perfect human being worthy of worship, or that he can do no wrong.
It rather seems that those that claim Sola Scriptura place themselves as sole arbiters of truth. They claim to know all that God says and reject other viewpoints that would call them to repentance. It reminds me of the church in Laodicea in Revelation 3
[17] Because thou sayest: I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not, that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked. [18] I counsel thee to buy of me gold fire tried, that thou mayest be made rich; and mayest be clothed in white garments, and that the shame of thy nakedness may not appear; and anoint thy eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. [19] Such as I love, I rebuke and chastise. Be zealous therefore, and do penance. [20] Behold, I stand at the gate, and knock. If any man shall hear my voice, and open to me the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
When you claim sola scriptura you claim to know it all. Can't be taught by history of tradition or even other people. you must come to the conclusion yourself. That places you in a difficult position of leaning on your own understanding when the Bible itself says to lean not to your own understanding. Christ said He was going to build a Church, but you say He didn't. You don't need church, you can interpret the Bible yourself.
1Tim2:1
[1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men:
If your interpretation of one mediator is correct, what good are supplications and intercessions?
The Catholic Church does not take the place of Christ, but we proclaim Christ to the world
"a redemption for all": He is also the only mediator, who stands in need of no other to recommend his petitions to the Father. But this is not against our seeking the prayers and intercession, as well of the faithful upon earth, as of the saints and angels in heaven, for obtaining mercy, grace, and salvation, through Jesus Christ. As St. Paul himself often desired the help of the prayers of the faithful, without any injury to the mediatorship of Jesus Christ.
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Jesus never gave authority to Peter or any of the disciples to change what Jesus taught them. God's church is built on the Word of God and we are told not to add anything to God's Word. Proverbs 30:5,6
This is how we know if its coming from God Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
No one has the authority to edit or change any of God's laws. This change is not coming from the Holy Spirit who is given to help us obey John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32 not to disobey.
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boughtwithaprice
Legend
They did not change what Jesus taught them; they did away with the old law. Circumcision is no longer of any effect, neither are any of the animal sacrifices and offerings. The Sabbath is a principle which was kept in the New Covenant, but was celebrated on the first day of the week to call attention to the Son and the Holy Spirit. The rites and ceremonies of the old law are done away. They have their fulfillment in the new covenant.
The Judahizers told believers that they had to be circumcised and keep all the precepts of the old law to be saved. They were rebuked by Paul.
If it helps you to worship on Saturday, then go ahead. Do everything for the glory of God. The Catholic Church recognizes you as separated brethren and you have a valid trinitarian baptism. You do believe in the Trinity right?
The rhetoric I hear come from the SDA, I know not all SDA believe this, is that Sunday worship is the mark of the beast and Catholics are evil. That is not how Christians are to behave toward fellow Christians
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Agreed, Jesus kept the Sabbath and all of His Fathers commandments and led by example going to the Temple, praying and reading scriptures on the Sabbath as was His custom Luke 4:16 as well as the disciples. No where did Jesus tell His disciples that after He rises one of God's commandments would be deleted and we are to now worship Him on the first day. Jesus taught the opposite that we should not worship Him in vain by obeying traditions over God's commandments Matthew 15:3-9
Agreed as Jesus was our perfect sacrifice, but God's moral commandments including the 4th commandment still stand, as we see in Isaiah 66:23 and scriptures from Jesus referring to the Sabbath after He will descend back to Heaven. Matthew 24:20. Something as major as breaking the Sabbath and commandment of God we would have scripture of Jesus telling His disciples, we do not have a God of confusion.
I noticed you did not provide any scripture to support this statement or any of your statements. How can you say that when God wrote His laws in our hearts in the New Covenant and God never deleted the only commandment that He started with the Word "REMEMBER". The New Testament has close to 60 references to the Sabbath and shows Jesus and His disciples in the Temples on the Sabbath so this is a very inaccurate statement. Jesus was being followed to see if He would break the Sabbath law, so the Sabbath commandment was very much in effect the entire time Jesus was on this earth and no where does Jesus tell anyone that there was a change in God's holy Sabbath day and the Sabbath day will continue as promised by God Exodus 31:16 to be the day we worship our Lord on the New Earth, not the first day Isaiah 66:23
Just a few examples from scriptures regarding the Sabbath still being God's law in the NT.
How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
- Matthew 12:12
But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
- Matthew 24:20
And the Pharisees said unto him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful?
- Mark 2:24
Luke 4:16 So He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. And as His custom was, He went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up to read. (Jesus was reading scripture from Isaiah)
And it came to pass also on another sabbath, that he entered into the synagogue and taught: and there was a man whose right hand was withered.
- Luke 6:6
And he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
- Luke 13:10
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment. (after Jesus died).
And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
- Acts 13:42
And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
- Acts 13:44
Circumcision is never found in God's Ten Commandments that God personally wrote and placed inside the ark in the Most Holy of His Temple. Paul tells us what matters and that is keeping the Commandments of God. 1 Cothinthians 7:19
The SDA church does not believe all Catholic people are evil, nor are all SDA's good. It's not the people but the institution that leads many people astray by breaking God's commandments that no one has the authority to edit, delete or change in lieu of tradition that comes from outside of scripture. The Bible tells us the mark of the beast is about WORSHIP
Revelations 14:11
And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.
Revelations 16:2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.
Revelations 14 takes us right back to God's 4th commandment
Revelations 14: 6 Then I saw another angel flying in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those who dwell on the earth—to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people— 7 saying with a loud voice, “Fear God and give glory to Him, for the hour of His judgment has come; and worship Him who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water.”
God is the creator of all things. God from the beginning worked six days and the seventh day God stopped working and God blessed and sanctified the seventh day. Genesis 2:1-3 God does not need to rest this was an example for us which God clearly tells us in the 4th commandment. Work six days, keep the seventh day Sabbath holy.
God commanded us to keep holy the seventh day Sabbath and to REMEMBER so that means we are not supposed to forget.
Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your male servant, nor your female servant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
This is God's authority! The seventh day Sabbath is the holy day of the Lord thy God and no one can change.
Isaiah 58:13 “If you turn away your foot from the Sabbath,
From doing your pleasure on My holy day,
And call the Sabbath a delight,
The holy day of the Lord honorable,
Which again is why the Sabbath day we will worship our Lord from one Sabbath to another on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23 as it is the only day God told us was holy and is the holy day of the Lord thy God.
The Catholic church admit they had no biblical authority to change one of God's commandments and when you obey Sunday in lieu of the Sabbath as the primary day of worship you are obeying the pope over God. This change was predicted in Daniel 7:25 as the only time that is a law is the seventh day Sabbath and 4th commandment.
Just one statement from the Catholic church there are many more like this.
Q. Have you any other way of proving that the Church has power to institute festivals of precept?
A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174
God bless!
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boughtwithaprice
Legend
I admire your zeal. It still does not answer why was the day of worship changed at the end of the first and during the second century AD.
Did the whole church apostasize until 1863?
I have seen researchers dismiss Justin Martyr and Iraneus. We’re these men deceived? If there were Christian Sabbath keepers in the first and second century, what were their names? Where are their writings? I read the book From Sabbath to Sunday, but could not find any.
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Thanks, we should all have zeal for the truth and following God's Word.
There has always been a remnant of God's saints according to scripture the remnant will continue until the end of days and God's saints and remnant people are described as those who keep the commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus. Rev 12:17
Those are good questions you are asking but the more important question is what does the bible say? Is there anywhere in the entire bible that tells us we can disregard the hand written commandment that God told us to Remember and keep holy the seventh day Sabbath in lieu of traditions outside of scripture. Jesus clears that up and tells us to not worship in vain by keeping traditions over the commandments of God. Matthew 15:3-9. The seventh day Sabbath and holy day of the Lord thy God is a commandment of God and Sunday worship is not a commandment of God nor is there any scripture telling us to worship God on the first day.
Here is some information I found though the centuries....
1st Century
1ST CENTURY SABBATH HISTORY
Institution Of The Sabbath
"Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made." Genesis 2:1-3
Jesus
"And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and stood up for to read." Luke 4:16
"And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." Matthew 19:16-17
"But pray ye that your flight be not in winter, neither on the Sabbath day." Matthew 24:20.
Jesus asked his disciples to pray that in the flight from the doomed city of Jerusalem they would not have to flee on the Sabbath day. This flight took place in 70 A.D. (40 years after the Cross).
His Followers
"And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments and rested the Sabbath day according to the commandment." Luke 23:56
Paul
"And Paul, as his manner was went in unto them, and three Sabbath days reasoned with them out of the Scriptures" Acts 17:2
Paul And Gentiles
"And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath. And the next Sabbath came almost the whole city together to hear the Word of God." Acts 13:42, 44.
Here we find Gentiles in a Gentile city gathering on the Sabbath. It was not a synagogue meeting in verse 44, for it says almost the whole city came together, verse 42 says they asked to hear the message the "next Sabbath."
John
"I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day." Rev. 1:10 (Mark 2:28, Isa.58:13, Ex.20:10, Clearly show the Sabbath to be the Lord's day).
Josephus
"There is not any city of the Grecians, nor any of the Barbarians, nor any nation whatsoever, whither our custom of resting on the seventh day hath not come!" M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries on China and Japan" (edited by Dennys), Vol 4, Nos 7, 8, p.100.
Philo
Declares the seventh day to be a festival, not of this or of that city, but of the universe. M'Clatchie, "Notes and Queries," Vol. 4, 99
More to come...
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2nd Century
2ND CENTURY SABBATH HISTORY
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77
Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).
Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77
Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.
2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
2ND CENTURY SABBATH HISTORY
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." - A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath, p. 77
Early Christians
"The primitive Christians had a great veneration for the Sabbath, and spent the day in devotion and sermons. And it is not to be doubted but they derived this practice from the Apostles themselves, as appears by several scriptures to the purpose." "Dialogues on the Lord's Day," p. 189. London: 1701, By Dr. T.H. Morer (A Church of England divine).
"...The Sabbath was a strong tie which united them with the life of the whole people, and in keeping the Sabbath holy they followed not only the example but also the command of Jesus." "Geschichte des Sonntags," pp.13, 14
"The primitive Christians did keep the Sabbath of the Jews;...therefore the Christians, for a long time together, did keep their conventions upon the Sabbath, in which some portions of the law were read: and this continued till the time of the Laodicean council." "The Whole Works" of Jeremy Taylor, Vol. IX,p. 416 (R. Heber's Edition, Vol XII, p. 416).
Early Church
"It is certain that the ancient Sabbath did remain and was observed (together with the celebration of the Lord's day) by the Christians of the East Church, above three hundred years after our Saviour's death." "A Learned Treatise of the Sabbath," p. 77
Note: By the "Lord's day" here the writer means Sunday and not the true Sabbath," which the Bible says is the Sabbath. This quotation shows Sunday coming into use in the early centuries soon after the death of the Apostles. Paul the Apostle foretold a great "falling away" from the Truth that would take place soon after his death.
2nd Century Christians
"The Gentile Christians observed also the Sabbath," Gieseler's "Church History," Vol.1, ch. 2, par. 30, 93.
2nd, 3rd, 4th Centuries
"From the apostles' time until the council of Laodicea, which was about the year 364, the holy observance of the Jews' Sabbath continued, as may be proved out of many authors: yea, notwithstanding the decree of the council against it." "Sunday a Sabbath." John Ley, p.163. London: 1640.
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3RD CENTURY SABBATH HISTORY
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." —Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp. 33, 34
Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).
Early Christians-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.
Africa (Alexandria) Origen
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.
Palestine to India (Church of the East)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed lallrge bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.
India (Buddhist Controversy, 220 A.D.)
The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.
Early Christians
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." —Dissertation on the Lord's Day, pp. 33, 34
Egypt (Oxyrhynchus Papyrus) (200-250 A.D.)
"Except ye make the sabbath a real sabbath (sabbatize the Sabbath," Greek), ye shall not see the Father." "The oxyrhynchus Papyri," pt,1, p.3, Logion 2, verso 4-11 (London Offices of the Egypt Exploration Fund, 1898).
Early Christians-C 3rd
"Thou shalt observe the Sabbath, on account of Him who ceased from His work of creation, but ceased not from His work of providence: it is a rest for meditation of the law, not for idleness of the hands." "The Anti-Nicene Fathers," Vol 7,p. 413. From "Constitutions of the Holy Apostles," a document of the 3rd and 4th Centuries.
Africa (Alexandria) Origen
"After the festival of the unceasing sacrifice (the crucifixion) is put the second festival of the Sabbath, and it is fitting for whoever is righteous among the saints to keep also the festival of the Sabbath. There remaineth therefore a sabbatismus, that is, a keeping of the Sabbath, to the people of God (Hebrews 4:9)." "Homily on Numbers 23," par.4, in Migne, "Patrologia Graeca," Vol. 12,cols. 749, 750.
Palestine to India (Church of the East)
As early as A.D. 225 there existed lallrge bishoprics or conferences of the Church of the East (Sabbath-keeping) stretching from Palestine to India. Mingana, "Early Spread of Christianity." Vol.10, p. 460.
India (Buddhist Controversy, 220 A.D.)
The Kushan Dynasty of North India called a famous council of Buddhist priests at Vaisalia to bring uniformity among the Buddhist monks on the observance of their weekly Sabbath. Some had been so impressed by the writings of the Old Testament that they had begun to keep holy the Sabbath. Lloyd, "The Creed of Half Japan," p. 23.
Early Christians
"The seventh-day Sabbath was...solemnised by Christ, the Apostles, and primitive Christians, till the Laodicean Council did in manner quite abolish the observations of it." "Dissertation on the Lord's Day," pp. 33, 34
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@boughtwithaprice
If you are interested I can keep going through the centuries. It's a lot of information. Here is a link to it...
4th Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth
5th Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth
It goes until the 20th century.
I hope you find this information helpful.
God bless!
If you are interested I can keep going through the centuries. It's a lot of information. Here is a link to it...
4th Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth
5th Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth
It goes until the 20th century.
I hope you find this information helpful.
God bless!
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0
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Jesus had the authority to infallibly start the Hebrew nation church at Sinai with His irrevocable promises - and He had the authority to start the Christian church.
He tells the church that error will come in (in 2Thess 2, Acts 20, 1 Tim 4:1-3). In Acts 20 Paul reminds them it comes in on the heels of his departure. In 3 John 1 the Apostle tells us apostasy was already arising in the Christian church such that people were being expelled from church who agreed to read and follow the Apostle's teaching. Paul tells Timothy to remain in Ephesus (1 Tim 1) to try and hold back error already arising there. Titus talks about how they need to find a way to silence the error rising up. Jude says he wanted to write about fellowship and good news but instead must tell them rise up and try to stop the error already coming to the front in their meetings.
Mark 7:6-13 is not an example of Jesus saying "I did not infallibly start the nation-church of Israel at Sinai so now you are having error taught by the magisterium".
Free will - means error "can" arise.
In 2Thess 2 Paul tells all churches that before the 2nd coming happens there will be a great apostasy - a great falling away - in the Christian church.
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Let's look at that quote from the Pope again:
"There are those who believe they can maintain a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and the mediation of the Church. These are dangerous and harmful temptations. These are, as the great Paul VI said, absurd dichotomies." (Pope Francis, Audience of June 25, 2014, Vatican)
I don't see how you can read something different in this quote. The rest of the Pope's address could've been scripturally sound, but this one paragraph is not, which is concerning. What other things has the Pope said that oppose scripture?- The first sentence states clearly that you can't have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ outside the communion and mediation of the Catholic church, which is in direct opposition to scripture.
- The Pope calls wanting a personal, direct and immediate relationship with Jesus Christ "dangerous" and "harmful" temptations.
- The Pope calls a personal relationship with Jesus, our mediator, as opposed to the church being the mediator, "absurd dichotomies". This being a quote from Paul VI.
You said, "...those that claim Sola Scriptura place themselves as sole arbiters of truth." I don't see it that way. God gives discernment through the Holy Spirit. Where in any of our posts do you see us elevating ourselves above the truth found in the word of God? Every position is defended with clear language from scripture. If it were not so, then we would have no defense for our positions. The very thing you're accusing "those that claim Sola Scriptura" of, the Pope is guilty of by his own words (and not scripture). If this were isolated to one paragraph from one address, it wouldn't be a concern, but the church has a history of making such bold unscriptural statements of authority.
I said before, this isn't isolated to one church, it's across the board in Christianity. There are people in our own church; we're not immune. Thank God that we have His word to set things straight. Imagine if we didn't.
We agree on Revelation 3. It's about repentance, but it's also about lukewarm Christianity, which by the very definition, could be a departure from scriptural truth and study; allowing men to dictate what Christianity is and not the word of God, which, by the way, does a fantastic job of doing on its own.
Revelation 3:14-22
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17-18 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21-22 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
- Our Creator asserts His authority to emphasize this message.
15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
- Lukewarm Christianity is the core of the message.
- Jesus can and will deny you before God the father (Matthew 7:23).
17-18 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
- Lay up treasure in heaven, not the earth (Matthew 6:20).
- Open your eyes to your wretchedness.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
- Rebuking of the lukewarm.
- A call to repentance (Matthew 4:17).
- A call to zealous Christianity.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
- Jesus knocks directly on the door Himself (John 14:6, 1 Timothy 2:5). There is no other worldly mediator. See the Pope's words again.
21-22 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
- Just reward—or just punishment (Revelation 22:11-12).
It's okay to be in disagreement. I believe what I believe and you believe what you believe. Being able to discuss it on a forum, in a day and age when Christian persecution is on the rise, and freedom of speech is under attack, that's a privilege we both can share and enjoy, and agree on.
God bless!
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boughtwithaprice
Legend
thank you for your kind words. I agree that we have a privilege to discuss Christianity in an open forum without persecution.
I don’t think you are correctly interpreting what the Pope said. He is not calling a relationship with Jesus dangerous. He is calling placing Jesus under the opinions of individuals apart from the church dangerous
We preach the kingdom of God. Gabriel announced to Mary that God would place Jesus on the throne of David and He would rule forever. He is a king and not a president.
Most if not all Protestant churches are set up as democracies. All you have to do to change church teaching is get a majority to go along with you, and presto teaching is changed.
This has lead to problems over the last 500 years. The so called Reformation has not stayed together, but has split into many splinter groups, moral theology has been watered down and Christianity has become barely recognizable. That is a shame
It is untrue to place the Pope in opposition to Jesus, and claim that he is placing himself as god to the world. He is saying that human nature by itself is disobedient and disobedience is dangerous
We just need to look at the fruits of Martin Luther. The Reformation was supposed to be a restoration of biblical Christianity, but what we have is a bunch of people in disagreement. Each claims sola scriptura, yet few agree
God says he desires obedience rather than sacrifice. We are not gods unto ourselves
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klutedavid
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You will need to accept church tradition in order to hold onto the New Testament. The church had to decide which letters to include and which to exclude from the New Testament. This process of assembling the New Testament letters took centuries.
The earliest known complete list of the 27 books is found in a letter written by Athanasius, a 4th-century bishop of Alexandria, dated to 367 AD.[2] The 27-book New Testament was first formally canonized during the councils of Hippo (393) and Carthage (397) in North Africa. (wikipedia)
The letters you know in the New Testament were not the only letters, being passed from church to church. We all have to accept some level of church tradition, otherwise we lose the New Testament.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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Which one(s) were NT saints ( contemporaries with Paul and John the revelator) "needing" so they could read O.T. and N.T. texts in your POV?
none?
That is what I thought.
Yet they understood the term "all of scriptures" in Luke 24 and "the rest of scripture" in 2 Peter 3.
The point remains.
(BTW - there is no debate/challenge when it comes to the 27 books of the NT fully completed before the end of the first century)
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That is not a quote or reference to anything I said in that post of mine - is it??
My examples are "individuals" choosing against the supposedly infallible magisterium in Acts 17:11 and in your own example of Acts 8 in the case of the Ethiopian and Philip.
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The prophecies of Revelation (which are beyond the scope and subject matter of this thread) show us that apostate Protestantism has a role to play in these end times. Yes, I agree, there is a truth problem in Protestantism, but it is, by and large, the fulfillment of prophecy and must take place. What seems like division comes together under a common apostasy. It may not look like it, but it's already here and coalescing. The only thing in this world we can trust is the word of God, which is why a close walk with Him is so important. The unified church is in Him and His word, not in any one church institution. I would point to what Jesus said in Matthew 7:13-14 with utmost emphasis.
Warm regards.
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klutedavid
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Not sure if I understood your reply?
Are you saying that in the first century, every church had copies of the exact 27 letters. That are found listed in a modern translation?
The complete New Testament was canon at the end of the first century?
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I am saying that in the first century the NT readers read terms like 'All of scripture" in Luke 24 and "the rest of scripture" in 2 Peter 3- and were not responding with "hold on thar!! we need to wait a few hundred years before we can read scripture and know what all of that is - even if it is completed at the time of the writing of the gospel of John".
They were no waiting a few more hundred years for a tradition to surface that would inform them what to read.
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boughtwithaprice
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I merely meant that there is a higher authority than human conscience. You gave an example of someone choosing to worship on Tuesday and that does not line up with either SDA or Catholic teaching.
With regard to the infallible magisterium of the Jews you reference. Even Jesus recognized their institution. He said they sit in Moses’ seat, so you have to do what they tell you, but do not do as they do, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees you will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Our Lord did not advocate the overthrow of even the corrupt Sanhedrin, but criticized the behavior of those that wielded the power.
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