The Trend Toward Atheism

The Liturgist

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This is a common charge brought against Charismatics and Pentecostals, of course. And hard to answer on either side, because we don't know how many languages there are and tongues of angels would be included as well. (1 Corinthians 13:1) Not to mention that a manifestation of tongues doesn't even have to be cohesive communication. (wordless groans)

Romans 8:26 NIV
In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans.

I don’t interpret either of those passages in a Charismatic context. I don’t see a reason to believe there is a separate angelic language based on 1 Corinthians 13:1 Indeed, the prophets Isaiah and others have not described them speaking unintelligibly. Remember, Christ is the Divine Logos, which means word, reason, logic, and so while the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and we don’t know what that is, I am convinced by factors other than glossolalia that the true gifts are found among the persecuted Christians in the Middle East and the former Soviet Union, and in the monasteries of Mount Athos, St. Anthony’s, the Kiev Caves, Varlaam, St. Catharine of Sinai, Darto d’Mor Mattai which is dangerously close to Mosul but still has 20 monks, and the Romanian and Ethiopian countryside, among other places.
 
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Saint Steven

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I don’t interpret either of those passages in a Charismatic context. I don’t see a reason to believe there is a separate angelic language based on 1 Corinthians 13:1 Indeed, the prophets Isaiah and others have not described them speaking unintelligibly. Remember, Christ is the Divine Logos, which means word, reason, logic, and so while the wisdom of God is foolishness to man, and we don’t know what that is, I am convinced by factors other than glossolalia that the true gifts are found among the persecuted Christians in the Middle East and the former Soviet Union, and in the monasteries of Mount Athos, St. Anthony’s, the Kiev Caves, Varlaam, St. Catharine of Sinai, Darto d’Mor Mattai which is dangerously close to Mosul but still has 20 monks, and the Romanian and Ethiopian countryside, among other places.
The tongues of angels may be as numerous as the tongues of humankind. The same may be true of demonic tongues. (makes good theater anyway - lol)

So, you see evidence that the gifts did not cease. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. You have limited findings, but they are findings none the less. Had the gifts ceased, this would not be so. And had the "gifts" only been sign gifts, this would not be so. Unless there is once again a need for "sign gifts". (I don't think that was ever the reason for the "gifts"/manifestations of the HS - see 1 Corinthians 12:11-12)

There is a tendency to conclude that tongues is nonsensical and meaningless speech. I don't believe that is the case at all. When we don't know what to pray, the Spirit intercedes on our behalf. (Romans 8:26) What could be more sensible, or meaningful, than a direct hit with our prayers. I wouldn't be quick to discount that. And frankly, I don't use tongues as a last resort, but rather a first line of defense/offense.

And in terms of a defense for things charismatic, we have precious little to go on biblically. If the Corinthians hadn't been "swinging from the chandeliers" we wouldn't have 1 Corinthians chapters twelve through fourteen where 95 percent of what we do have lives.

Reviving the manifestations is a pioneering work for those who are open to it. And I am very much against trying to stir up what isn't there. But I have had a few personal experiences that have me well convinced. And been present for others having similar experiences. (even long distance healing via cell phone)

And from my perspective, we don't own the "gifts", they own us. I always want to be open to being used by God to minister to others. (no matter what manifestation of the Spirit is required) And I am occasionally, and clearly, directed to do so.
 
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Saint Steven

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... the true gifts are found...
True gifts?
Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is true. Judging true and false is what humans like to do. And typically to excuse their own lack.

Testimonies about God speaking to someone, or a healing after prayer are widely accepted. But other manifestations are judged as either true or false. Very interesting. All the same source as far as I can tell.

It seems that at some point a lay person asked the valid question: "Why aren't we seeing miracles now?" Leadership hit the books (instead of their knees) and Cessationism was born. (an illegitimate child from my POV)
 
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The tongues of angels may be as numerous as the tongues of humankind. The same may be true of demonic tongues. (makes good theater anyway - lol)

So, you see evidence that the gifts did not cease. I hope I'm not putting words in your mouth. You have limited findings, but they are findings none the less. Had the gifts ceased, this would not be so. And had the "gifts" only been sign gifts, this would not be so. Unless there is once again a need for "sign gifts". (I don't think that was ever the reason for the "gifts"/manifestations of the HS - see 1 Corinthians 12:11-12)

There is a tendency to conclude that tongues is nonsensical and meaningless speech. I don't believe that is the case at all. When we don't know what to pray, the Spirit intercedes on our behalf. (Romans 8:26) What could be more sensible, or meaningful, than a direct hit with our prayers. I wouldn't be quick to discount that. And frankly, I don't use tongues as a last resort, but rather a first line of defense/offense.

And in terms of a defense for things charismatic, we have precious little to go on biblically. If the Corinthians hadn't been "swinging from the chandeliers" we wouldn't have 1 Corinthians chapters twelve through fourteen where 95 percent of what we do have lives.

Reviving the manifestations is a pioneering work for those who are open to it. And I am very much against trying to stir up what isn't there. But I have had a few personal experiences that have me well convinced. And been present for others having similar experiences. (even long distance healing via cell phone)

And from my perspective, we don't own the "gifts", they own us. I always want to be open to being used by God to minister to others. (no matter what manifestation of the Spirit is required) And I am occasionally, and clearly, directed to do so.

I have reason to believe the findings I have represent the present state of the charisms, who has them, and what one must do to attain one.

Also, as I somewhat indicated previously I don’t believe that when we don’t know what to pray, this represents an automatic theurgical invocation of speaking in tongues. Rather, what the Spirit moves us to pray should be comprehensible, and my personal experience is one of always knowing what to pray, but not praying it enough. For example, every Christian according to the Didache, which is a crucial first century text on the life of the early church, should endeavor to at a minimum pray the Lord’s Prayer thrice daily. I myself without having read that started ending my nightly prayers as a teenager by praying the Lord’s Prayer three times. Then, there is the Jesus Prayer, which I now strive to pray as much as possible. “Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, Have Mercy on Me, a Sinner”, which can be shortened to “Lord have Mercy” or the more elegant New Testament Greek “Kyrie Eleison,” which is so beautiful it was adopted in the liturgies of the Latin*, Syriac and Coptic Christians.

Regarding Charismatic Christianity, in our enthusiasm to see the gifts, which never ceased, in my opinion - they have always existed among those who would actually benefit the Christian Church as a whole by having them, it is vital to remember the importance of discernment. We are told to test every spirit, and warned that our adversary the devil, who roams like a lion, will deceive even the elect, if possible. It is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if we see something that superficially resembles the charisms as described in Scripture, but is in fact a deception. And there are some things we see among some Charismatics that have no scriptural basis.

Rev. John MacArthur did a conference on discernment called Strange Fire a few years back, which made some good points, but then negated its credibility owing to his hard cessationist Calvinism. I have seen and experienced miraculous healings, in the sacrament of the Eucharist and in the anointing of the sick with oil, which I can describe to you privately, and engaged in effortless communication with an elderly monk, greatly revered in the Greek Orthodox Church, who knew God but not English. And I have heard reports of Orthodox monks and nuns who prophesied, and greater miracles than that, or than one hears of in a Roman Catholic context; really only the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have the same content, but the Orthodox tend to de-emphasize it, because our faith should not be based on signs and wonders.

However, the cautiously open minded approach I take, even to the experiences reported in charismatic and pentecostal settings, although I believe that ironically, you would find the gifts you seek most frequently in the context of liturgical worship, John MacArthur rejected out of hand, because he has a contempt for the Eastern churches which extended to horrible remarks about the Christian fidelity of Dr. Hank Haanegraaf after he and his family joined the Eastern Orthodox Church (which is one of three ancient Eastern churches, the others being the Oriental Orthodox and the Assyrians). The fact that Dr. Haanegraaf was battling cancer at the time did not seem to matter to MacArthur.

So a much better work on the subject of Christian spiritual discernment is Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, by Dr. Seraphim Rose.

Lastly, regarding Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit, I think this refers to the final rejection of salvation, because the most important soteriological function of the our Lord and Paraclete the Holy Spirit is shining His uncreated grace upon us, so that we experience compunction and have, despite our depravity, the freedom to believe in Christ and cultivate this saving faith. But we can also choose to reject our Lord. From this understanding, which is shared by most Christian churches I have encountered, and was definitely believed in the Early Church, we can reassure anyone who worries they might have accidentally engaged in it, that since they feel contrition and are worried for their salvation, their faith is in fact alive, and whatever they did was not enough to constitute the Unpardonable Sin.

This all being said, I think it would be extremely dangerous to one’s salvation to go into a church, Charismatic or not, or an Orthodox monastery, and accuse everyone of being possessed by the devil. The devil does impersonate the angels and even God, and creates counterfeit “christianities” - cults whose pastors are wolves in sheep’s clothing, like the Jehovah’s Witness, and, with specific regard to miraculous healing which you and I have experienced, the actually deadly psuedo-Gnostic cult of Christian Science, which fortunately, more than a century after Mary Baker Eddy began her career as a heretic and a con artist, is dying off; Christian Science reading rooms are closing and their churches are being sold as the membership leaves.

And this is good, because we can plainly discern the evil in her cult, which is recognized as non-Christian on CF.com, since their doctrines resulted in the shaming or abuse of members who sought medical treatment for injuries, and instead of medical doctors, the Christian Science laity would visit Christian Science Practitioners, licensed by the church, whose job was to charge people money to pay for them! Believers in that cult were taught that these practitioners of what was neither Christian nor science, were the only effective providers of health care. That Christian Science has lasted as long as it has and has deceived as many people and actually caused the deaths of many, including children, from a lack of medical attention, demonstrates the dangers of the demonic and the need for sober discernment without the vitriolic prejudice we see in John MacArthur. We just need to follow the scriptural directive to test every spirit, and use the accumulated wisdom of the Holy Scriptures, which God the Holy Spirit himself inspired, aided by the tradition, reason and experience of Christians over the 2,009 years since Pentecost, to separate the sacred and nourishing wheat from the useless and dangerous chaff.

I am impressed by your instinctive piety, and although on the surface, there are a number of apparent differences between us, I believe we have much more in common, and I feel blessed to have made your acquaintance in these past few months.

*Western Christianity used to consist of more than the Roman Rite, from which Protestant worship is derived. Before Charlemagne decided that the Roman liturgy should be used throughout his Empire, there was the Gallican Rite, and before the British Isles were forcibly converted from Celtic Orthodoxy to the Roman church, there was the Celtic Rite, both of which survive in fragments. In Milan and Toledo, two variants of the Gallican Rite survive, the latter having the Spanish, or Mozarabic Rite, which the Roman Catholic Church in Spain and even Toledo gradually replaced with the Roman Rite, but one chapel in the Cathedral in Toledo is dedicated to preserving it, and it is also used by a monastery, and by Anglicans in Spain and Mexico, and a portion of it survives in the traditional Mexican matrimonial service. Milan is the only place in Western Christendom where a Gallican-based liturgy still predominates, the Ambrosian Rite, although some parts of the text are close to the Roman Rite, specifically the Eucharistic prayers. But other Gallican features remain, like Advent lasting six weeks. There was also a beautiful Gallican liturgy in Southern Italy, called the Beneventan Rite, whose musical tradition has been preserved, but the rite itself became extinct long ago, for reasons I am unaware of.
 
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The Liturgist

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True gifts?
Any manifestation of the Holy Spirit is true. Judging true and false is what humans like to do. And typically to excuse their own lack.

I agree. The vices of prejudice and conceit are the enemies, inhibitors and calumniators of faithful spiritual discernment.

Testimonies about God speaking to someone, or a healing after prayer are widely accepted. But other manifestations are judged as either true or false. Very interesting. All the same source as far as I can tell.

Indeed. People can lie about the former just as easily as the latter, or be deceived just as easily. Many people see the devil impersonating God.

It seems that at some point a lay person asked the valid question: "Why aren't we seeing miracles now?" Leadership hit the books (instead of their knees) and Cessationism was born. (an illegitimate child from my POV)

Indeed. If the congregation had prayed fervently, the gifts would have resumed. It is telling that urban Christians living comfortable lives can’t even believe anyone could do the things that I have seen impoverished Egyptian monks do in the desert.

I have even experienced mockery from cessationist Protestants for reporting what happened in my presence. They think I am a liar or insane!

So I have become more guarded in who I talk to and what I talk about, not because their mockery wounded me; it did not but was an honor, rather - to quote the Orthodox Eucharistic Liturgy, Holy Things are for the Holy. Or speaking Scripturally, I do not wish to cast my pearls before swine, and the wisdom of God is foolishness to men.
 
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Saint Steven

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I have reason to believe the findings I have represent the present state of the charisms, who has them, and what one must do to attain one.
Thanks. This is such a great discussion.
I would say the gifts are "available" to all, but it is the Holy Spirit that distributes them as he wills.


1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
 
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The Liturgist

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Thanks. This is such a great discussion.
I would say the gifts are "available" to all, but it is the Holy Spirit that distributes them as he wills.


1 Corinthians 12:7-11 NIV
Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.

Absolutely.
 
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Saint Steven

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Also, as I somewhat indicated previously I don’t believe that when we don’t know what to pray, this represents an automatic theurgical invocation of speaking in tongues.
I agree that it is not automatic. And the verse in question seems to be focused on an extreme situation in reference to wordless groans. But readers and skeptics focus on that and miss the general truth about letting the Spirit intercede for us. Whether that be with tongues, or a word of knowledge/wisdom. Or as you have suggested, time-worn, carefully written prayers.

1 Corinthians 2:13
This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
 
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Saint Steven

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Regarding Charismatic Christianity, in our enthusiasm to see the gifts, which never ceased, in my opinion - they have always existed among those who would actually benefit the Christian Church as a whole by having them, it is vital to remember the importance of discernment. We are told to test every spirit, and warned that our adversary the devil, who roams like a lion, will deceive even the elect, if possible. It is not blasphemy against the Holy Spirit if we see something that superficially resembles the charisms as described in Scripture, but is in fact a deception. And there are some things we see among some Charismatics that have no scriptural basis.
I agree for the most part.
But think we get back into the area of culture shock by the accusers of charisma. There is all sorts of evil stuff going on in many churches (not yours or mine, of course) that no one thinks twice about. If they could only straighten out those Charismatics, then everything would be fine. Say what? - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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... Pentecostal and Charismatic churches have the same content, but the Orthodox tend to de-emphasize it, because our faith should not be based on signs and wonders.
Like in medicine, I see the Pentecostal and Charismatic churches as specialists in this area.

When the Baptist church down the street has a demonized child they really have only two choices. Bring them to the Charismatics/Pentecostals, or bring them to the Catholic/Orthodox. Because Baptists don't believe in such nonsense. - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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John MacArthur rejected out of hand, because he has a contempt for the Eastern churches which extended to horrible remarks about the Christian fidelity of Dr. Hank Haanegraaf after he and his family joined the Eastern Orthodox Church
Yes, we had a topic on that here. I think I launched it. That was horrible.

Is Evangelicalism a false religion?
 
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Saint Steven

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Lastly, regarding Blasphemy Against the Holy Spirit, I think this refers to the final rejection of salvation, because the most important soteriological function of the our Lord and Paraclete the Holy Spirit is shining His uncreated grace upon us, so that we experience compunction and have, despite our depravity, the freedom to believe in Christ and cultivate this saving faith.
That is the popular view and totally unsupported by the passage in question. IMHO

I think this first verse at the beginning of the discussion is key to understanding the whole passage. And Jesus defines blasphemy as slander, which is spoken.

But no matter which view is taken, it is a VERY difficult passage. The common consensus seems to me to be a conclusion about the conundrum presented. The "unforgivable" sin.

Matthew 12:24 NIV
But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this fellow drives out demons.”

Matthew 12:31 NIV
And so I tell you, every kind of sin and slander can be forgiven, but blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven.
 
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Saint Steven

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? I did not write there is nothing wrong.
Yes, you did.
Here is what you did write, to which I responded.
"There is nothing wrong..." Your exact words.

There is nothing wrong with those who with God's grace try to emulate Christ in their lives.
 
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Yes, you did.
Here is what you did write, to which I responded.
"There is nothing wrong..." Your exact words.
Clever but disingenuous. I will leave you to whatever point your thread is trying to make. ?
 
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parousia70

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But it is actually prophecy.
Jesus doesn't return to a world conquered by the gospel, the 7 mountain mandate is unbiblical.
You can resist it and teach your children, and try to get back to what works (the word of God, not pizza parties) but it will inevitably be that the Church will dwindle....
ALL of our attempts to solve problems on our own, whether in the world, or in the church itself, are going to fail.

The Post demonstrates quite clearly how Futurism is an eschatology of defeatism concerning the role of the Church and its citizens in our communities and nations today.

The constant fearful statements and dispair that futurists express about the world and their daily lives, as demonstrated above, shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. Futurists are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" Instead of the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

I don't have much patience for this kind of cowardice and chickenlittle-ism. God's people are strong and courageous, not defeated pessimists. I don't know how people make it through each day based on this defeated attitude and outlook they inherit from false endtimes views, but maybe there is still hope--so listen up.

(1) The endtimes "apostasy" was a unique, first-century attempt by satan to abort the Church and one true faith during its infancy. The following passages were concerning a first-century event (see: Acts 20:29-30; 2 Tim 1:15; 4:10-11,16-17; 1 Jn 2:18-19/4:1-3; 2 Jn 1:7; 1 Peter 4:12-13, 5:8-9; Hebrews 6:6-11/10:38-39; 3 Jn 1:9-10; Rev 13:12; Jude 1:1-25). The apostles and Christ won that battle, and Christianity has since spread worldwide and cannot be stopped.

(2) Jesus Christ is the God of this world (Eph 1:20-22) and the Prince of the earth's kings (Rev 1:5). All spirits and powers have been made subject to His authority (1 Pet 3:22). All authority on earth belongs to King Jesus (Matt 28:18).

(3) Christians are the citizens of his ever growing, ever dominating Kingdom, and they form the largest religious nation worldwide.

(4) Christianity has spread universally and cannot be stopped.

(5) The relative weakness of Christanity in the west in the past 60 years is the direct result of endtimes hysterias that cause evangelical Christians to abdicate their duties to America and neglect their children's futures. Evangelicals certain of a 1981, or 1988, or Y2K or 2012 rapture, etc..Quite frankly gave up on America. Boy were they foolish. One of them, J.Vernon McGee, used to say: "you don't polish brass on a sinking ship." This was his excuse for abandoning America and our children's future. To that preacher, the present life was useless and he expected the rapture to come before he died. He was deadly wrong, and you and I are still here picking up the pieces after his neglect and his generation's neglect.

(6) It took a generation of Christian neglect towards our country to get us into a jam, and it will only take *ONE* generation of obedience to God to re-establish godly rule. But, this requires our participation, and evangelicals have got to stop falling for the endtimes myth over and over, and start believing the bible, and start being The Joshuas.

It's High Time we stopped quivering in the corner with the covers over our heads crying out "the sky is falling". The world is ours. We are the Victors. It's High time we started acting like it.
 
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The Post demonstrates quite clearly how Futurism is an eschatology of defeatism concerning the role of the Church and its citizens in our communities and nations today.

The constant fearful statements and dispair that futurists express about the world and their daily lives, as demonstrated above, shows us that their doctrine that fuels such a "defeat mentality" is not based on FAITH, HOPE, and LOVE. Compare Joshua to the other spies who were afraid and gave a bad report about the land. Futurists are the spies who always fearfully say "there are giants in the land!" Instead of the JOSHUAS who say "THE LAND IS OURS! LET'S TAKE IT. God has given the land to US!"

I don't have much patience for this kind of cowardice and chickenlittle-ism. God's people are strong and courageous, not defeated pessimists. I don't know how people make it through each day based on this defeated attitude and outlook they inherit from false endtimes views, but maybe there is still hope--so listen up.

(1) The endtimes "apostasy" was a unique, first-century attempt by satan to abort the Church and one true faith during its infancy. The following passages were concerning a first-century event (see: Acts 20:29-30; 2 Tim 1:15; 4:10-11,16-17; 1 Jn 2:18-19/4:1-3; 2 Jn 1:7; 1 Peter 4:12-13, 5:8-9; Hebrews 6:6-11/10:38-39; 3 Jn 1:9-10; Rev 13:12; Jude 1:1-25). The apostles and Christ won that battle, and Christianity has since spread worldwide and cannot be stopped.

(2) Jesus Christ is the God of this world (Eph 1:20-22) and the Prince of the earth's kings (Rev 1:5). All spirits and powers have been made subject to His authority (1 Pet 3:22). All authority on earth belongs to King Jesus (Matt 28:18).

(3) Christians are the citizens of his ever growing, ever dominating Kingdom, and they form the largest religious nation worldwide.

(4) Christianity has spread universally and cannot be stopped.

(5) The relative weakness of Christanity in the west in the past 60 years is the direct result of endtimes hysterias that cause evangelical Christians to abdicate their duties to America and neglect their children's futures. Evangelicals certain of a 1981, or 1988, or Y2K or 2012 rapture, etc..Quite frankly gave up on America. Boy were they foolish. One of them, J.Vernon McGee, used to say: "you don't polish brass on a sinking ship." This was his excuse for abandoning America and our children's future. To that preacher, the present life was useless and he expected the rapture to come before he died. He was deadly wrong, and you and I are still here picking up the pieces after his neglect and his generation's neglect.

(6) It took a generation of Christian neglect towards our country to get us into a jam, and it will only take *ONE* generation of obedience to God to re-establish godly rule. But, this requires our participation, and evangelicals have got to stop falling for the endtimes myth over and over, and start believing the bible, and start being The Joshuas.

It's High Time we stopped quivering in the corner with the covers over our heads crying out "the sky is falling". The world is ours. We are the Victors. It's High time we started acting like it.

This post blatantly sticks its head in the sand and ignores the direct comparison between reality and what the bible says are the conditions before the return of Christ because they put their mistaken doctrine over what the bible says.

Furthermore, it is completely backwards.
a future return of Jesus is something to look forward to and have hope in, because this world is messed up and God has promised to judge it and then remake it.
If Jesus already came back in the past and THIS mess is the "new heavens and new earth"? Then God would be a disappointment and you'd have nothing to look forward to except dying.
Jesus coming in the future? No matter how dark things seem, it becomes hopeful and exciting because the worse it is, the more likely it is that Jesus is coming soon, so the more hope you have in that.
 
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parousia70

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This post blatantly sticks its head in the sand and ignores the direct comparison between reality and what the bible says are the conditions before the return of Christ because they put their mistaken doctrine over what the bible says.

Funny thing is, everything I said is based ENTIRELY on what the Bible says. I even gave extensive chapter and verse references.
Feel free to cite those verses and explain why you believe they don't mean what they say.

the worse it is, the more likely it is that Jesus is coming soon, so the more hope you have in that.

This is exactly the backwards attitude I'm taking about that has resulted in Christians completely abdicating their responsibility to the world that belongs to us.

We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

We are supposed to do the Work of Christ here and now, and make this world a better place tomorrow than it is today, and Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)

It's high time we started acting like it.
 
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Jamdoc

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Funny thing is, everything I said is based ENTIRELY on what the Bible says. I even gave extensive chapter and verse references.
Feel free to cite those verses and explain why you believe they don't mean what they say.



This is exactly the backwards attitude I'm taking about that has resulted in Christians completely abdicating their responsibility to the world that belongs to us.

We are to subdue kingdoms and establish righteousness as the Hebrews 11 heroes did:

Hebrews 11:6, 32-33
for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him...for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions

The Christian Church walks in this great heritage of unstoppable faith just like our Hebrews 11 brothers and sisters. We are in process of subduing kingdoms, establishing righteousness, and asserting Christ's dominion over all nations through the same faith of David, Samuel, Joshua, and Moses had. Nothing can stop us (Matthew 16:18-19).

We are supposed to do the Work of Christ here and now, and make this world a better place tomorrow than it is today, and Nothing can stop us. (Matthew 16:18)

It's high time we started acting like it.

Okay so
#1. The bible teaches the world gets worse and worse and worse right before Jesus comes.
#2. The bible says that once Jesus comes, nothing like that will ever happen again.
#3. The bible teaches that after the Millennial Kingdom there won't be any more sin, death, or sorrow.

Your position does not line up with reality, because you believe Jesus has returned and yet the world continued getting worse.
 
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