Zephaniah

Spiritual Jew · Aug 31, 2021

keras said:
No; they are not.
1 Thess 5:1-3 is about the forthcoming Day when the Lord will Judge and punish the current inhabitants of the Middle East region. Jeremiah 12:14

2 Peter 3:11-13 refers to the final event after the Millennium. The new earth in Eternity.

Why are you just quoting 2 Peter 3:11-13 as if verse 10 isn't referring to the same event? Or was that just a mistake? Anyway, it's ludicrous to claim that 1 Thess 5:1-3 is some other event than 2 Peter 3:10-13. Both speak of the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. There aren't 2 future days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night.

There has been many 'Judgment days' and more are prophesied; the Sixth Seal, of the ungodly peoples in the holy Land; the attacking armies when Jesus Returns; The attacking armies at the end of the Millennium - Revelation 20:7-10, and then the Great White Throne Judgment of everyone who has ever lived. Revelation 20:11-15
All separate Judgments, in their proper order.

Which judgment day that you believe in is the following passage referring to?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 31, 2021

Douggg said:
The word Jerusalem, nor city, nor surround is found in the text of Matthew 24.

Why does it need to be? You shouldn't interpret Matthew 24 in isolation without looking at Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well.

Also, in what city were the temple buildings located that Jesus said would be destroyed with no stone left upon another? Do you need the text to spell that out for you?

And conversely, "abomination of desolation" is not found in Luke 21.

Why does it need to be? Luke was writing to Gentiles, so it wouldn't make sense for him to reference the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel and say "let the reader understand", since only Jews would understand what was written in Daniel about the abominaton of desolation. So, instead, Luke spelled it out for his Gentile audience so that they could understand what was going to happen by saying "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains...".

It's very clear that Matthew 24:15-22 is parallel to Luke 21:20-24. The only difference is that Luke 21:24 mentions that the times that would follow that event in Jerusalem would be "the times of the Gentiles" while the Matthew account does not specifically refer to that.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 31, 2021

Douggg said:
No, it doesn't. The beast in Revelation is not ever called Gog.

Gog/Magog is a literal end times event.

If that's the case then why would you not see Revelation 20:7-9 as describing that event?

Revelation 20:7 When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—and to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9 They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God’s people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them.

Douggg · Aug 31, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Why does it need to be? You shouldn't interpret Matthew 24 in isolation without looking at Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well.

I do, but I read past Luke 21:24 in the process.

Douggg · Aug 31, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
If that's the case then why would you not see Revelation 20:7-9 as describing that event?

Because Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39 is 7 years before Armageddon, v17-20, and Jesus Himself speaking in v21-29 having returned to this earth.

Ezekiel 39:
v1-16 Gog/Magog event
v17-20 Armageddon event
v21-29 Jesus having returned to earth, speaking in the text.

keras · Aug 31, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Why are you just quoting 2 Peter 3:11-13 as if verse 10 isn't referring to the same event? Or was that just a mistake? Anyway, it's ludicrous to claim that 1 Thess 5:1-3 is some other event than 2 Peter 3:10-13. Both speak of the day of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night. There aren't 2 future days of the Lord that will come as a thief in the night.

2 Peter3:7 & 10 refers to the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
11-13 refer to the NH,NE; at the end of the Millennium.

Peter is prophesying a sequence, as careful reading of it can ascertain.
The only event which will come 'like a thief in the night', is the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event we can expect.

Spiritual Jew said:
Which judgment day that you believe in is the following passage referring to?

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

The Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Spiritual Jew said:
Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

Matthew 10:14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.

Same as above.

Spiritual Jew said:
Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

Matthew 12:36 But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken.

Same as above.

Spiritual Jew said:
Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

2 Peter 2:9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

The Sixth Seal Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, then the GWT later.
...to keep the wicked under punishment until the Day of Judgment. REB

Spiritual Jew said:
Which judgment day is the following passage referring to?

1 John 4:16 And so we know and rely on the love God has for us. God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus.

Again, the GWT Judgment, after Jesus has reigned for the 1000 years and everyone who has ever lived will stand before God. Revelation 20:11-15

Spiritual Jew said:
Why does it need to be? You shouldn't interpret Matthew 24 in isolation without looking at Mark 13 and Luke 21 as well.

We do look at both and I agree with Douggg, that Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 refer to the Great Trib, triggered by the Anti-Christ sitting in the new Temple. As is plainly prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4
Events yet to happen, in our future.

But Luke 21:20-24 is about the Roman conquest of Jerusalem. Proved by how Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, as has been the case, and still is with the Temple Mount under Muslim control.
And, will be again; for the 42 months of the 'beast' world control. Revelation 13:5-8

Spiritual Jew said:
If that's the case then why would you not see Revelation 20:7-9 as describing that event?

Read Ezekiel 38 and 39, then Revelation 20:7-9 and note the many differences.
Gog Magog is only mentioned in Revelation as a metaphor for a innumerable host.

keras · Aug 31, 2021

eclipsenow said:
But you have already said I will be in your fictitious nation with you, able to study everything you've been saying - IF you're right. No consequences, zip.

Now you are saying Bible Prophecy is fictitious. Isaiah 62:1-5
There ARE consequences! All who post here, or promote their beliefs anywhere; are teachers. We are all trying to get others to see things the way we do. Some have Bible proofs for what they present and some use coercion, basically - people who don't believe my way are fools.

James 3:1 .....you may be certain that we who teach others, will ourselves face a more severe Judgment.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 31, 2021

keras said:
2 Peter3:7 & 10 refers to the Day of the Lord's fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.
11-13 refer to the NH,NE; at the end of the Millennium.

Peter is prophesying a sequence, as careful reading of it can ascertain.
The only event which will come 'like a thief in the night', is the Sixth Seal, the next prophesied event we can expect.

The Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER the Millennium.

Same as above.

Same as above.

So, you claim there's all these different days of judgment and yet you acknowledge that the scriptures which refer to the day of judgment all refer to the same judgment. Interesting. Oh, except for 2 Peter 2:9 and 2 Peter 3:7. How convenient of you to see that as a different day of judgment than the one all these other verses refer to.

We do look at both and I agree with Douggg

You're agreeing with Douggg here. That should make you think twice about how you see this. Seriously. In another post I saw where you said he gets everything wrong with Bible prophecy and I agree. But, he somehow has this right? Hmmm.

You look at both Matthew 24 and Luke 21 (don't forget Mark 13) in a very biased way because you don't even acknowledge that Luke 21:20-24 is a parallel passage to Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20). Do you think Jesus talked to the disciples about people fleeing from Judea to the mountains while saying "And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!" twice during the Olivet Discourse, which I believe makes no sense? Or do you think that Luke 21 is not the Olivet Discourse and is some other occasion where Jesus talked about the same things as He did in the Olivet Discourse?

What both of you are not understanding is that Luke had a different primary audience than Matthew and Mark, which was the Gentiles. That's why he worded some things a bit differently here and there even though he was describing the same events. Gentiles would not have known anything about the abomination of desolation that Daniel prophesied about, so that's why Luke spelled it out in Luke 21:20 by saying "When you shall see Jerusalem surrounded by armies..." instead of "When you shall see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet...".

that Matthew 24:15-22 and Mark 13:14-20 refer to the Great Trib, triggered by the Anti-Christ sitting in the new Temple. As is plainly prophesied in 2 Thess 2:4

Except it's not prophesied there at all. There is no future physical temple that can be considered the temple of God. It's not going to happen. Ever. No chance. They might build a temple, but it won't be the temple of God and 2 Thess 2:4 is about the temple of God.

But Luke 21:20-24 is about the Roman conquest of Jerusalem. Proved by how Jerusalem will be trampled by the Gentiles, as has been the case, and still is with the Temple Mount under Muslim control.
And, will be again; for the 42 months of the 'beast' world control. Revelation 13:5-8

Again, in both Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20) and Luke 21:20-24 you have Jesus saying "When you see..." followed by Him saying to flee into the mountains and saying "woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!", but they are somehow not speaking of the same event?

Do you think that Matthew and Mark did not record His answer to the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed? If so, why not?

eclipsenow · Aug 31, 2021

Douggg said:
The word Jerusalem, nor city, nor surround is found in the text of Matthew 24.

Except nation struggling against nation, fleeing Judea, and those pregnant women are!
You're honestly trying to make these two narratives about different things?
I'm kind of shocked.
You must know you're trying to wiggle out of something here.

And conversely, "abomination of desolation" is not found in Luke 21.

Yeah, there's no 'abomination' but there certainly is desolation! I mean, are you for real?
Your conscience must be gnawing at you right now.
This is as bad as some of Keras splitting up the Return arguments!

They don't. The details prove that the Matthew 24:15-31 is not the 70 AD event of the destruction of Jerusalem, followed by Luke 21:24 the Jews lead away captive into the nations..

Absolute poppycock! The details are practically identical with only a few minor variations of expression. Pull the other one it plays jingle bells.

In Matthew 24:31, just the opposite, the elect are gathered.

Different section, different subject.
Right now we're talking about how Jesus answered two questions:
1. When would THAT temple be destroyed! The one the disciples exclaimed about, and Jesus said would be destroyed - and was destroyed. Futurists trying to argue that is actually talking about a hypothetical third temple in this conversation is laughable and absurd. When THAT temple is destroyed it will be predictable, local, and avoidable. But don't be pregnant - or get out of town early if you are!

2. When would the LAST DAY happen - the end of the age. That will be unpredictable, universal, and inescapable.

These are the two questions and characteristics of the two answers. Trying to insert a hypothetical third temple some 2000 years later into the passage just makes me wince. It's obscene and dishonest, and futurists MUST in some part deep down really know that.

keras · Aug 31, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
So, you claim there's all these different days of judgment and yet you acknowledge that the scriptures which refer to the day of judgment all refer to the same judgment. Interesting. Oh, except for 2 Peter 2:9 and 2 Peter 3:7. How convenient of you to see that as a different day of judgment than the one all these other verses refer to.

Repeat: There have been Days of Judgment before, the Flood, for example. There will be Days of Judgment again; at the Sixth Seal; when Jesus Returns and when God Judges everyone.
These Judgments are separate and clearly prophesied. Why must you conflate them?

Spiritual Jew said:
You're agreeing with Douggg here. That should make you think twice about how you see this. Seriously. In another post I saw where you said he gets everything wrong with Bible prophecy and I agree. But, he somehow has this right? Hmmm.

Douggg, like you and most here, simply cannot see the truths as Written.
However you both get some things correct, as even the JW's do.

Spiritual Jew said:
Except it's not prophesied there at all. There is no future physical temple that can be considered the temple of God. It's not going to happen. Ever. No chance. They might build a temple, but it won't be the temple of God and 2 Thess 2:4 is about the temple of God.

Wow, this is about the most confused statement yet!
2 Thessalonians 2:4 is prophesying about a future physical Temple, one that IS God's Temple, the one so well described by Ezekiel 40 to 46.

Spiritual Jew said:
Do you think that Matthew and Mark did not record His answer to the question about when the temple buildings would be destroyed? If so, why not?

They did; and then Matthew and Mark went on to prophecy what the Christian Jews should do when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.
Luke, however, speaks of a distant future attack, as prophesied in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:1-8
Which will happen 42 months before Jesus Returns.

keras · Aug 31, 2021

Zephaniah 3:1-8 Woe to the place of oppression, filthy and defiled, they heed no warning voice and ignore God’s rebukes. They won’t take correction or place their trust in their Creator. Their leaders have no concern for the people and prophet and priest alike profane the Holy Scriptures.

The Lord has judged and punished them before, their land laid waste and the towns deserted and He thought: surely now they will fear Me and will accept instruction, but they continue on in their evil deeds and they show no shame for it.

Judah has been punished by Babylon and by Rome.

Therefore: look out for Me, for the Day when I will stand up to witness against you, on the Day that I execute justice upon the nations, for I will pour out My fierce anger and the whole earth will be enveloped by the fire of My wrath.

This will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath against the nations. Prophesied in the Bible over 100 times. 2 Peter 3:7, Revelation 6:12-17, +

Zephaniah 3:11-13 On that Day, Jerusalem, I shall wipe away your shame for all the transgressions committed in you, for I shall remove all your proud and arrogant citizens, only the humble and peaceful people will remain and those who never practise evil or speak lies, they will settle in the Land and nothing will disturb them.

This is the great Second Exodus of all of God’s people into all of the holy Land. Every faithful Christian: a vast multitude from every tribe, race, nation and language. Isaiah 66:18-21, Ezekiel 34:11-31, Romans 9:24=26, Revelation 7:9

Zephaniah 3:9-10 They will all know a pure language, so everyone will know the true Name of the Lord and will praise Him with one accord. My worshippers, all the righteous people will come from afar to worship the Lord and bring offerings to Him. People from every race, nation and language, all the born again Christian people, will travel there to live, in the new nation of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, while the rest of the world is ruled by a One World Government. Daniel 7:23, Revelation 17:12

Zephaniah 3:14-17 Daughter of Jerusalem; sing for joy! For the Lord has taken away your punishments and has cast out your enemies. Now the Lord is with you and you need never again fear disaster.

On the Day of the Lord’s wrath; This is the message for My people: Fear not, stand firm in your faith, your God will keep you safe and will rejoice over you.
Ref: REB, CJB, KJV. Some verses condensed and paraphrased.

This chapter of Zephaniah encapsulates the soon to happen end times story.
It tells how Jerusalem is denigrated by its ungodly inhabitants and will rejoice when they are gone. How those enemies of the Lord, the evil neighbors, Jeremiah 12:14, and all who reject the Salvation of Jesus, will be uprooted, then the holy Land resettled by the Lord’s faithful believers. Ezekiel 34:11-31 tells it plainly.

Jeremiah 7:30-34 & 8:1-13 The people of Judah have done wrong, they worship idols and have no regard for their Creator....Therefore, the time is coming when I shall fill the valley of Topeth with their corpses.......All the survivor’s of this wicked race, from wherever I have banished them, would rather die than live. Isaiah 22:14

...Judah is incurable in their waywardness......I listen, but I hear not one word of remorse ....My people do not know the Judgements of the Lord. How can you say: We are wise and we have the Law of God, when your scribes and priests have falsified it? The wise are shamed and where is wisdom in them?

Therefore I will give their wives to others and give their land to new owners, for all of their prophets and priests are frauds....on My Day of reckoning, they will fall with a great crash. I shall surely consume them says the Lord and there will be no grapes on the vine, [Israel] and no figs on the fig tree. [Judah]

We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future. Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.
What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.

It is the prophetic parallel of ancient Israel, where Jesus led the people through the desert and how most of them refused to accept the Promise. 1 Corinthians 10:6-13

Ezekiel 20:34-38 tells how, once again, some of His people will revolt and rebel and they will not enter the Land of Israel.

In today’s situation, we have many who have accepted the Gospel, but who have chosen their own beliefs about what God intends to do for His people and during this forthcoming test, 1 Peter 4:12, they may fail to stand firm in their trust that the Lord will protect them. This won’t lose their salvation, but it will be a serious disadvantage, 1 Corinthians 3:13-15
As the great chapter of Isaiah 35:1-10, one of the many prophesies that describe the Lord’s faithful Christian people entering the holy Land, says: ...no one unclean will go there....The Lord’s people, set free: will enter Zion with shouts of triumph.

Spiritual Jew · Aug 31, 2021

keras said:
Repeat: There have been Days of Judgment before, the Flood, for example. There will be Days of Judgment again; at the Sixth Seal; when Jesus Returns and when God Judges everyone.
These Judgments are separate and clearly prophesied. Why must you conflate them?

Because scripture does. Scripture is very clear that God has set one future day to judge the world (Acts 17:30-31). Why do you not believe that? Why are you willing to blatantly contradict what Acts 17:31 says? That day is referenced in several verses in scripture which I already quoted to you and is portrayed in passages like Matthew 25:31-46 and Revelation 20:11 to 21:4. If there were multiple days in the future when people would be judged, scripture would say so. Instead, it repeatedly refers to the singular day of judgment that God has set to judge all people.

Douggg, like you and most here, simply cannot see the truths as Written.
However you both get some things correct, as even the JW's do.

Okay, buddy. Are you just asking for me to put you on ignore here? Is that what you want? I'll happily oblige if that's what you want. Don't ever compare me to JWs again. I don't believe they are Christians, so, to me, you are saying I'm not a Christian by comparing me to them.

Wow, this is about the most confused statement yet!
2 Thessalonians 2:4 is prophesying about a future physical Temple, one that IS God's Temple, the one so well described by Ezekiel 40 to 46.

Oh, you mean the prophecy where it says animal sacrifices and sin offerings for the atonement of the Israelite people would be performed? You believe that will happen, which means you believe that Christ's sacrifice will somehow no longer be sufficient at that point? And you are calling me confused? You couldn't possibly be more confused when it comes to this particular topic.

They did; and then Matthew and Mark went on to prophecy what the Christian Jews should do when they saw the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem.
Luke, however, speaks of a distant future attack, as prophesied in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:1-8
Which will happen 42 months before Jesus Returns.

Wait a minute here. You're saying you think Matthew 24:15-22 (and Mark 13:14-20) are referring to what happened in 70 AD but Luke 21:20-24 is about what will happen in the future? That's even more farfetched than what Douggg believes. You do realize that what you described is not what Douggg believes, right? He believes the opposite from you. He believes that Matthew 24:15-22 is about a future event and Luke 21:20-24 (minus the times of the Gentiles) is about the past event that occurred in 70 AD. You both are completely confused. Matthew 24:15-22 and Luke 21:20-24 are the same event (minus the times of the Gentiles that only Luke references).

keras · Aug 31, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Scripture is very clear that God has set one future day to judge the world

Right; that Day will be after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgment.
Bu as I showed and you chose to ignore; there have been other Judgments and there will be at least two more before the final one, then Eternity.
Acts 17:31 refers to the GWT Judgment.

Spiritual Jew said:
Don't ever compare me to JWs again. I don't believe they are Christians,

I didn't.
The JW's are Christians if they believe in Jesus. John 3:16 We ALL have some wrong beliefs. Yours is the AMill doctrine.
As for me; I remain steadfast in believing there will be a new Temple, we Christians will make offerings in it, as we live in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land. Cleared and cleansed by the fire of a massive CME.

Spiritual Jew said:
you believe that Christ's sacrifice will somehow no longer be sufficient at that point?

You make wrong conclusions. Jesus did make the final sacrifice for our sins. But Prophecy is clear; God will again require offerings' Isaiah 56:6-7, Ezekiel 20:40-41, and sacrifices for inadvertent sins; Ezekiel 45:20

Things like the Millennium reign of Jesus and the new Temple, ARE in scripture. You deny them to your discredit.

eclipsenow · Sep 1, 2021

keras said:
We Christians are told by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 5:4-5, that we should know God’s plans for what will happen in the near future.

It says nothing of the sort - it's more like a command to remain in God's family! It's saying stay children of the light / day. This is more about being prepared, like having an insurance package to use if the house burns down. We don't know when it will burn down, but we have all our family photos backed up on the cloud and all our belongings insured. We are prepared for the future, NOT given secret knowledge of the future.

We are children, heirs who will inherit everything - NOT know-it-all's that know exactly when this will happen. (If these forums are anything to go by, futurists can hardly agree on a thing and keep guessing wrong. Like those who fell for the 2012 hype. :oldthumbsup:

)

1 Thessalonians 5:4-5
NIV: 4 But you, brothers and sisters, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief. 5 You are all children of the light and children of the day. We do not belong to the night or to the darkness.

ESV: 4 But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. 5 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness.

From the ESV Commentary:-
5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.
1 Thess 5:1–11 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Zephaniah 3 gives it to us, confirmed by the sequence of Revelation chapters 6-7.

No it doesn't. We've been over this.

What is presented to you in these scriptures, is God’s Promises to His faithful people, His blessings of peace and prosperity, of joy and happiness, of security and long life, as all who love Him and keep the Commandments; will live in His Land.

We get those promises from other, more spiritual verses like in Hebrews which explains even Abraham wasn't REALLY after 'the Land' but was obeying God because his eyes were on a 'heavenly' home - in the physical NHNE.

This whole 2026 AOD isn't going to happen. Really isn't.

keras · Sep 1, 2021

eclipsenow said:
This whole 2026 AOD isn't going to happen. Really isn't.

This categorical statement is 10 times worse than any so called date setting. You are basically saying that all the information God has given us about what will happen, is useless.

eclipsenow · Sep 1, 2021

keras said:
This categorical statement is 10 times worse than any so called date setting. You are basically saying that all the information God has given us about what will happen, is useless.

Not at all! I'm saying the information he has given us is a Travel Guide of highlights of what to expect when we get there. You're trying to read it as a Calendar - which is irrelevant because we haven't been given our Holidays yet from the boss! (And the boss has repeatedly said the dates are a surprise.)

Again, you didn't comment on the commentary's response. This is a conservative Reformed commentator.

From the ESV Commentary:-
5:1–11 The Thessalonians are told to prepare for the same thing that will come unexpectedly upon the ungodly—the day of the Lord (vv. 2, 4). Paul assumes that Christians and non-Christians alike will be alive and present when the Day arrives, Christians watchful and ready, non-Christians surprised as by a thief who comes at night. In other words, the rapture of Christians spoken of in 4:17 will not occur before the arrival of the Day that will also bring sudden and inescapable destruction to the wicked (2 Thess. 2:1, 2 notes). See “The Return of Jesus Christ” at 4:16.
1 Thess 5:1–11 - ESV Reformation Study Bible - Bible Gateway

Also, you never answered why you don't apply everything else in the prophets to the future. You picked fire - and that's it. What about vineyards, insects, locusts, and all the other matters that come up in the prophets that might be echoed in Revelation somehow? Why leave them out of your precious timetable? Because if the fire stuff is all actually about the SUN, who knows what all those locust verses are about, or prophecies about vineyards etc. Come on pal, I thought you respected ALL the prophecies of God - ALL the information! Unless of course they're not on your radar because you instinctively KNOW they're about local historical matters that have already been dealt with... which begs the question about those fire prophecies being about local historical wars as well, hey? :oldthumbsup:

eclipsenow · Sep 1, 2021

keras said:
Right; that Day will be after the Millennium, at the GWT Judgment.
Bu as I showed and you chose to ignore; there have been other Judgments and there will be at least two more before the final one, then Eternity.

They're all the one - as the verses I have shared with you repeatedly show. Your splitting them up into different days is completely alien to the texts and quite bad reading.

THE DAY OF THE LORD / LAST DAY looks like this

MATTHEW 13
The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels. 40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day” (Jn 6:39, 40, 44, 54; 11:24)

“There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day” (John 12:48)

The return of Christ will occur “in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed” (1 Co. 15:52; cf. 1 Thess 4:16). Notice that there are no gaps of time indicated between the resurrection and the judgement. These texts collectively speak of the resurrection, the judgment, and the return of Christ as distinct aspects of but one event, occurring at precisely the same time (cf. Mt 25:31-46). Premillennialists, who often chide amillennialists for not taking the Bible “literally” and who champion what they call the “literal” interpretation of Scripture, must now insert a thousand-year gap between the Second Coming of Christ (and the resurrection) and the Final Judgment to make room for the supposed future millennial reign of Christ! And this, ironically, when the clear declarations of Scripture do not allow for such gaps.

IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

2 Peter 3:10-13
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare. 11 Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives 12 as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. 13 But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

Douggg · Sep 1, 2021

eclipsenow said:
(Much of the material here adapted from the following source.)
A Present or Future Millennium? by Kim Riddlebarger

Ezekiel 39:21-29 proves Mr. Riddlebarger wrong in his overall view. Ezekiel 39 proves everyone wrong, but futurists, as far as a framework of events to take place in the end times.

Ezekiel 39:
v1-16 Gog/Magog event
v17-20 Armageddon event
v21-29 Jesus having returned to earth, speaking in the text.

keras · Sep 1, 2021

eclipsenow said:
Not at all! I'm saying the information he has given us is a Travel Guide of highlights of what to expect when we get there. You're trying to read it as a Calendar - which is irrelevant because we haven't been given our Holidays yet from the boss! (And the boss has repeatedly said the dates are a surprise.)

There is actually sufficient information in the Bible for us to establish the date when Jesus will Return. Using the simple addition of the given time periods and the known date of the Babylon conquest. I have posted this timeline and no one has refuted it.
That people like you don't like it, is easy to understand; it means they will have to experience the events of the end times.

eclipsenow said:
Jesus expressly states that he will raise believers up on the “last day”

Which will be at the Great White Throne Judgment; AFTER Jesus has reigned on earth for 1000 years. As Revelation 20 tells us.

eclipsenow said:
IT ALL HAPPENS TOGETHER!

This idea is opinion only.
It combines the 3 prophesies about the Lord's Day of fiery wrath, the glorious Return and the GWT Judgment, into one mixed up event.
When all the Prophesies about each of these events are properly studied, it is obvious they must be separate and years apart.

Douggg · Sep 1, 2021

keras said:
There is actually sufficient information in the Bible for us to establish the date when Jesus will Return. Using the simple addition of the given time periods and the known date of the Babylon conquest. I have posted this timeline and no one has refuted it.

Do you have a link to a post containing that timeline?

Zephaniah

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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