Vessels of Mercy !

Brightfame52

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When are the Vessels of Mercy made so ?

Rom 9:21-23

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
 

Dave L

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When are the Vessels of Mercy made so ?

Rom 9:21-23

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Jesus says whoever believes has eternal life. So the elect are saved co-eternally with God and the reprobate are damned eternally in God.
 
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When are the Vessels of Mercy made so ?

During the vessels walk with God in this life. Christians are the body of Jesus our High Priest and mediator, seated at the right hand of God the Father. Paul talked about different parts of the body being useful for different purposes and so forth. I suppose some parts are for displaying mercy. Do you not know we will sit in judgement? But, judgement begins with the household of God.
 
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Brightfame52

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During the vessels walk with God in this life. Christians are the body of Jesus our High Priest and mediator, seated at the right hand of God the Father. Paul talked about different parts of the body being useful for different purposes and so forth. I suppose some parts are for displaying mercy. Do you not know we will sit in judgement? But, judgement begins with the household of God.
So you believe God made them vessels of mercy during their lifetime ?
 
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bling

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When are the Vessels of Mercy made so ?

Rom 9:21-23

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Vessels of mercy did not have to be specifically “named” when God decided to glorify them and shower them with gifts.

You really need to put every verse in Ro. 9 in the context of at least all of Ro. 9, ro. 9-11 and all of Romans.


Romans 9

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand How Paul uses diatribes and think since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?


Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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Brightfame52

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I believe we have scriptural support that some were designated vessels of mercy before they were born, even before the foundation of the world. Look ar Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Also Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

They fear Him in time because they were designed for mercy in the everlasting covenant of mercy from everlasting.
 
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Brightfame52

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Those who are the vessels of mercy, God in time has mercy on them, giving them the new birth. 1 Pet 1:3

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Paul writes in similar fashion Eph 2:4-6

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

So the quickening here in Eph 2:5 is the same as the being begotten again in 1 Pet 1:3 both the fruit and effect of Gods having mercy.

Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
 
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Brightfame52

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Did you know some of mankind, not all, are Gods vessels of mercy ? Paul writes of them here Rom 9:21-23

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?


22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:


23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


This afore prepared unto Glory is solely a work of God, and it regards Salvation, the Glorification aspect of it. For instance Paul writes of it here before in Romans 8:30

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Rom 8:18

For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

Now Paul says they are afore prepared ! What does that mean ?

It means they were appointed to it [Glory/Salvation] by God from Eternity. It was beforehand decreed in Gods Mind and Eternal Purpose in Christ Jesus Eph 3:11

11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord

As Grace was given them in Christ Jesus before the world began 2 Tim 1:9, so likewise was mercy given them in Him, hence its that mercy from everlasting upon them Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children

Now how is it Mercy, from everlasting but from the fact it was afore prepared for them due to their Election in Christ Jesus before the foundation.
 
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bling

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I believe we have scriptural support that some were designated vessels of mercy before they were born, even before the foundation of the world. Look ar Rom 9:20-23

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

Also Ps 103:17

17 But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

They fear Him in time because they were designed for mercy in the everlasting covenant of mercy from everlasting.
Did you read my post 8.?
 
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Brightfame52

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because he delighteth in mercy !

Micah 7:18

Who is a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth in mercy.

Though God delights to show mercy, its restricted to only those He chooses to have mercy upon !
Ex 33:19

19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the Lord before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Paul quotes this in the NT Rom 9:15

15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

The bestowal of Gods mercy isnt determined by the will of men, but only by His Sovereign will and good pleasure. Its reserved for the remnant of His heritage, which He chooses for Himself.
 
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Brightfame52

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Did you read my post 8.?
I read through it and its , garbage. You trying to explain why it doesnt refer to mens eternal destiny, how they are predetermined. Fact is, God has created from among all mankind, jew and gentile, some for destruction and some for Glory, Vessels of Wrath and Vessels of Mercy.
 
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Good Day,


Excerpt from Dr. James White's book "The Potter's Freedom" (pages 211-214):


Snip.... "
You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? (Romans 9:19-20)

Paul knew well the objections man presents to the words he had just penned. If God has mercy solely based on His good pleasure, and if God hardens Pharoah on the same basis, all His own glory and honor, how can God hold men accountable for their actions, for who resists His will? Paul's response is swift and devastating: Yes, indeed God holds man accountable, and He can do so because He is the potter, the one who molds and creates, while man is but the "thing molded." For a pot to question the Potter is absurd. These words cannot be understood separately from the fundamental understanding of the freedom of the Sovereign Creator and the ontological creatureliness of man that removes from him any ground of complaint against God. Though already devastatingly clear, Paul makes sure there is no doubt left as to his point:

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. (Romans 9:21-24)

The Potter's freedom pulses through these words, flowing inexorably into the sea of sovereignty, rushing any would-be proponent of free will out of its path. God has the perfect right to do with His creation (including men) as He wishes, just as the Potter has utter sovereignty over the clay. Just as God had demonstrated His wrath and power by wasting idolatrous Egypt, so too He demonstrates He wrath upon "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Are these nations? Classes? No, these are sinners upon whom God's wrath comes. They are said to have been specifically "prepared for destruction." That is their purpose.

Why are there vessels prepared for destruction? Because God is free. Think about it: there are only three logical possibilities here. Either 1) all "vessels" are prepared for glory (universalism); 2) all "vessels" are prepared for destruction; or 3) some vessels are prepared for glory and some are prepared for destruction and it is the Potter who decides which are which. Why is there no fourth option, one in which the pots prepare themselves based on their own choice? Because pots don't have such a capacity! Pots are pots! Since God wishes to make known the "riches of His grace" to His elect people (the vessels prepared for mercy), there must be vessels prepared for destruction. There is no demonstration of mercy and grace when there is no justice.

The vessels of wrath, remember, like being vessels of wrath, would never choose to be anything else, and they detest the vessels that receive mercy..."
 
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bling

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I read through it and its , garbage. You trying to explain why it doesnt refer to mens eternal destiny, how they are predetermined. Fact is, God has created from among all mankind, jew and gentile, some for destruction and some for Glory, Vessels of Wrath and Vessels of Mercy.
What kind of "god" would produce suffering without any input from the people, he is produced, just for their destruction?
Does that not sound like a very harsh being to you?
Yes! we are all born into different situations which to us seem tragic and harsh like the beggar Lazarus, but his comfort and reward will be experienced later. Gentiles Christians in Rome certainly could feel they were born into a much worse condition than the Jewish Christians, yet each had issues.
Can we agree that the Potter would not want his mark on the bottom of a cracked pot which could not hold liquid?
 
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bling

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Good Day,


Excerpt from Dr. James White's book "The Potter's Freedom" (pages 211-214):


Snip.... "


Paul knew well the objections man presents to the words he had just penned. If God has mercy solely based on His good pleasure, and if God hardens Pharoah on the same basis, all His own glory and honor, how can God hold men accountable for their actions, for who resists His will? Paul's response is swift and devastating: Yes, indeed God holds man accountable, and He can do so because He is the potter, the one who molds and creates, while man is but the "thing molded." For a pot to question the Potter is absurd. These words cannot be understood separately from the fundamental understanding of the freedom of the Sovereign Creator and the ontological creatureliness of man that removes from him any ground of complaint against God. Though already devastatingly clear, Paul makes sure there is no doubt left as to his point:



The Potter's freedom pulses through these words, flowing inexorably into the sea of sovereignty, rushing any would-be proponent of free will out of its path. God has the perfect right to do with His creation (including men) as He wishes, just as the Potter has utter sovereignty over the clay. Just as God had demonstrated His wrath and power by wasting idolatrous Egypt, so too He demonstrates He wrath upon "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." Are these nations? Classes? No, these are sinners upon whom God's wrath comes. They are said to have been specifically "prepared for destruction." That is their purpose.

Why are there vessels prepared for destruction? Because God is free. Think about it: there are only three logical possibilities here. Either 1) all "vessels" are prepared for glory (universalism); 2) all "vessels" are prepared for destruction; or 3) some vessels are prepared for glory and some are prepared for destruction and it is the Potter who decides which are which. Why is there no fourth option, one in which the pots prepare themselves based on their own choice? Because pots don't have such a capacity! Pots are pots! Since God wishes to make known the "riches of His grace" to His elect people (the vessels prepared for mercy), there must be vessels prepared for destruction. There is no demonstration of mercy and grace when there is no justice.

The vessels of wrath, remember, like being vessels of wrath, would never choose to be anything else, and they detest the vessels that receive mercy..."
Please read my post 8 and comment.
 
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Brightfame52

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God made them the vessels of wrath !​

Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I know this is a subject that is most distasteful to proud human flesh, but the scripture does teach that God made some people to be vessels of wrath, and He fits them for destruction, which destruction will be everlasting !

These same vessels of wrath are mentioned in Proverbs, Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for[denoting purpose] the day of evil.


These are people outside of Gods election of grace Rom 11:5,7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Those not of the election of grace, are termed the rest which are blinded

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


If they're excluded from being of the election of grace, they are excluded from being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
 
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zoidar

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God made them the vessels of wrath !​

Rom 9:20-22

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

I know this is a subject that is most distasteful to proud human flesh, but the scripture does teach that God made some people to be vessels of wrath, and He fits them for destruction, which destruction will be everlasting !

These same vessels of wrath are mentioned in Proverbs, Prov 16:4

4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for[denoting purpose] the day of evil.


These are people outside of Gods election of grace Rom 11:5,7

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
Those not of the election of grace, are termed the rest which are blinded

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.


If they're excluded from being of the election of grace, they are excluded from being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4
Preach that to unbelievers and see what happens or is this something only to be preached to believers.
 
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Preach that to unbelievers and see what happens or is this something only to be preached to believers.
Good Day, Zodiar

Seeing that the letter was to a Church there is a very good there were both believers and unbelievers.

See what happens we know that truth is offensive, no really our issue so who cares what happens. The believers do understand that God created and that he does so freely according to His will and purpose.

Both Vessels of Mercy and vessels of wrath he created.

What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

He created them (vessels) of Wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of Glory for The vessels of Mercy he created for Glory.

That is His purpose in doing so, and he is Glorified and Worthy of worship for doing so.

Your question reminds me of the great Evangelist: :

1687535773575.png


In Him,

Bill
 
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