The Times We Live in...

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

We live in fascinating times.

We now know how much greater God is than mankind has ever known... by the scientific discoveries of the vastness of space, the ability to rearrange elements God has provided in nature for construction, sailing, locomotion, flight, space flight, medical procedures, medicines and supplements.

Even in advancements like in vitro fertilization, cloning, and surrogacy.
Surrogacy, especially; how a woman can be a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people (that the baby she carries and gives birth to is not her own).

If correct, this gives insight on the incarnation of Christ; specifically how he could be

born of a virgin
have a sinless human nature

In recent Spirit-led studies (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11 / Isaiah 28:9-13) in the biblical defense of the Trinity (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) I came across Isaiah 44:24 (which states that the Creator of all things created in the beginning acted alone / by himself). Clearly that Creator is Jesus preincarnate (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2). Which solves the theology that puzzled believers for 1900 years how Jesus could be the ONLY Son of God yet Adam is clearly called the son of God (Luke 3:38) or other mentions throughout scripture of the sons of God...

Answer... there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son. Humanity are children of God (the Son) by creation but not of God the Father. We as believers in Christ Jesus [become] sons of the Father by adoption (from that faith):

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam= prototype.

Jesus Christ is as human in body as the rest of us... but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

He was created in body not as the first Adam was (fully grown) but went through gestation and child birth to be the [legal] heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

.Jeremiah. · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
We live in fascinating times.

We now know how much greater God is than mankind has ever known... by the scientific discoveries of the vastness of space, the ability to rearrange elements God has provided in nature for construction, sailing, locomotion, flight, space flight, medical procedures, medicines and supplements.

Even in advancements like in vitro fertilization, cloning, and surrogacy.
Surrogacy, especially; how a woman can be a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people (that the baby she carries and gives birth to is not her own).

If correct, this gives insight on the incarnation of Christ; specifically how he could be

born of a virgin

have a sinless human nature

In recent Spirit-led studies (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11 / Isaiah 28:9-13) in the biblical defense of the Trinity (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) I came across Isaiah 44:24 (which states that the Creator of all things created in the beginning acted alone / by himself). Clearly that Creator is Jesus preincarnate (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2). Which solves the theology that puzzled believers for 1900 years how Jesus could be the ONLY Son of God yet Adam is clearly called the son of God (Luke 3:38) or other mentions throughout scripture of the sons of God...

Answer... there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son. Humanity are children of God (the Son) by creation but not of God the Father. We as believers in Christ Jesus [become] sons of the Father by adoption (from that faith):

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam= prototype.

Jesus Christ is as human in body as the rest of us... but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

He was created in body not as the first Adam was (fully grown) but went through gestation and child birth to be the [legal] heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

JohnD70X7 said:
Clearly

Wow, quite an incredible post.

Clearly, everything is very clear to you.

spiritfilledjm · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

As Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, yes...this would be true. John 1:1 would also seem to confirm this as well. It's kind of semantics though really. Like one of those "Welllll, technically but..." The Hebrew does state Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Not Emanuel or another OT name for Christ, therefore it wouldn't quite be correct that Jesus created man. It's like saying the brakes of a car makes it go fast because it is a part of the car. Each part has it's specific function, just like the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Tolworth John · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

Sorry but Romans 1:3 says differently. That he was decended from David.

If Jesus was not fully human, that means with an ancestry he could not die in our place. He in effect died for his relatives as we are all decended from Adam.

spiritfilledjm · Aug 31, 2021

Tolworth John said:
Sorry but Romans 1:3 says differently. That he was decended from David.

If Jesus was not fully human, that means with an ancestry he could not die in our place. He in effect died for his relatives as we are all decended from Adam.

That too, he was a blood descendent of Adam and David through his mother Mary and an adopted descendent through Joseph as one geneaolgy goes through Joseph and the other through Mary.

Salvadore · Aug 31, 2021

Tolworth John said:
Sorry but Romans 1:3 says differently. That he was decended from David.

If Jesus was not fully human, that means with an ancestry he could not die in our place. He in effect died for his relatives as we are all decended from Adam.

My understanding is He is fully human and fully God. We must take into consideration our limited ability to grasp all concepts.

FaithWillDo · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
We live in fascinating times.

We now know how much greater God is than mankind has ever known... by the scientific discoveries of the vastness of space, the ability to rearrange elements God has provided in nature for construction, sailing, locomotion, flight, space flight, medical procedures, medicines and supplements.

Even in advancements like in vitro fertilization, cloning, and surrogacy.
Surrogacy, especially; how a woman can be a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people (that the baby she carries and gives birth to is not her own).

If correct, this gives insight on the incarnation of Christ; specifically how he could be

born of a virgin

have a sinless human nature

In recent Spirit-led studies (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11 / Isaiah 28:9-13) in the biblical defense of the Trinity (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) I came across Isaiah 44:24 (which states that the Creator of all things created in the beginning acted alone / by himself). Clearly that Creator is Jesus preincarnate (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2). Which solves the theology that puzzled believers for 1900 years how Jesus could be the ONLY Son of God yet Adam is clearly called the son of God (Luke 3:38) or other mentions throughout scripture of the sons of God...

Answer... there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son. Humanity are children of God (the Son) by creation but not of God the Father. We as believers in Christ Jesus [become] sons of the Father by adoption (from that faith):

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam= prototype.

Jesus Christ is as human in body as the rest of us... but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

He was created in body not as the first Adam was (fully grown) but went through gestation and child birth to be the [legal] heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

Dear JohnD,
I agree with most of what you stated. Especially when you said "there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son" and "he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus".

Christ is the beginning of the creation of God:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

God the Father created His son Jesus and then through Jesus, He created everything else. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Jesus was the one who wrestled with Jacob. Jesus was the one who walked in the Garden with Adam.

When Christ's work is finished, all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. Then God the Father will be "all in all".

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This creation that mankind is experiencing is how God the Father produces His offspring. In the end, all mankind will be sons of God by the work of Christ. Christ is the beginning and the end.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Christ is the first and only Son of God (first and last). When Christ has finished His work, all mankind will be "born again" and will be "in Christ". Because of this truth, we will share in His divine nature and status. This happens not because of man's "will" or "work". It happens solely because it is the "will" of God the Father for it to happen. Our salvation is because of His "Grace" (free gift) which is manifested in Christ. And because it is, Christ will do 100% of the work necessary to convert all mankind into new children of God the Father.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To convert us, Christ will come to each of us at a time of His choosing and give us the necessary spiritual gifts. He comes to us because of "grace" and not because we invite Him to come. In fact, Christ won't even ask us for permission to do His spiritual work within us. He simply does it. Once we receive His "gifts", those "gifts" will cause us to repent of our own works, accept Christ as "Lord" and empower us to follow Him by Faith, knowing that He is the one who will accomplish our complete salvation. Mankind can contribute nothing.

What I have stated above is the Gospel of Christ. It is truly "Good News" for the world. Mankind's attempt to save themselves by their own works (called "religion") will always result in failure. This is true because mankind only has the power to make ourselves appear righteous from the outside. We have no ability to change ourselves from within (spiritually). Mankind was made "spiritually flawed" from the beginning and no amount of man's works can correct that issue. Because of our spiritual flaw, we quickly become controlled by our flesh (carnal nature). And because we are, we sin.

Eve displayed her carnal nature before she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Since God the Father is wanting to produce offspring, why did He create mankind in such a spiritually flawed way?

He did not do it by mistake. For mankind to be "like" God, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil".

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What better way to teach "good and evil" to mankind than to make us experience evil. Once evil has run its course within mankind, Christ will come to each of us and spiritually change us into "good". This is called conversion. The process of conversion judges our old vessel and completely destroys it. But from this destruction, Christ will make us into a new vessel, as it seemed good from Him to make:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

When Christ came into the world in a body of flesh, He came spiritually perfect. As you pointed out, Christ is not from Adam. And because Jesus was spiritually perfect, He never became carnally minded and therefore, never sinned. Once mankind is given the same spiritual perfection of the Holy Spirit, we will never sin again.

Through scripture, Christ has revealed His plan to save all mankind. In this age, Christ is only saving the First-Fruits of His harvest. They are blessed and have been chosen from the foundation of the world. But in the next and final age (the Lake of Fire age), Christ will do His work within the rest of mankind. When the last person is converted, He will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to God the Father and God will then be "all in all". Then it will be testified to be true that Christ is truly mankind's Savior:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

Clare73 · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
We live in fascinating times.

We now know how much greater God is than mankind has ever known... by the scientific discoveries of the vastness of space, the ability to rearrange elements God has provided in nature for construction, sailing, locomotion, flight, space flight, medical procedures, medicines and supplements.

Even in advancements like in vitro fertilization, cloning, and surrogacy.
Surrogacy, especially; how a woman can be a surrogate mother of an embryo from two other people (that the baby she carries and gives birth to is not her own).

If correct, this gives insight on the incarnation of Christ; specifically how he could be

born of a virgin

have a sinless human nature

In recent Spirit-led studies (2 Peter 1:20-21 / 1 John 4:1 / Acts 17:11 / Isaiah 28:9-13) in the biblical defense of the Trinity (John 1:1-2 / 1 John 1:1-2 / Genesis 1:1-2) I came across Isaiah 44:24 (which states that the Creator of all things created in the beginning acted alone / by himself).

Clearly that Creator is Jesus preincarnate (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:13-16 / Hebrews 1:2). Which solves the theology that puzzled believers for 1900 years
how Jesus could be the ONLY Son of God yet Adam is clearly called the son of God (Luke 3:38) or other mentions throughout scripture of the sons of God...

Jesus is the ony begotten Son of God, all the born again are sons of God.

Answer... there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son. Humanity are children of God (the Son) by creation but not of God the Father. We as believers in Christ Jesus [become] sons of the Father by adoption (from that faith):

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

The underlying point I am making is that God the Father did not create Adam and the human race. Jesus did. God created the human body his equal (God the Word) would become in the incarnation: Jesus. This gives fuller meaning to:

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Adam= prototype.

Jesus Christ is as human in body as the rest of us... but he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus.

He was created in body not as the first Adam was (fully grown) but went through gestation and child birth to be the [legal] heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David...

.Jeremiah. · Aug 31, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit

What are the functions of these three entities?

Clare73 · Aug 31, 2021

Clare73 · Aug 31, 2021

Tolworth John said:
Sorry but Romans 1:3 says differently. That he was decended from David.

Through Mary, his mother.

If Jesus was not fully human, that means with an ancestry he could not die in our place. He in effect died for his relatives as we are all decended from Adam.

Jesus is not descended from Adam.
In Biblical genealogy, descendancy is reckoned through the father.
Jesus' father is God.

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

Clare73 said:
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God, all the born again are sons of God.

We are created as sons of Adam who is the son of God the Word (John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Isaiah 44:24)

Jesus is the only begotten of God the Father:

John 1:14 (AV)
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

All born again believers in Jesus are sons of God by adoption:

Romans 8:15 (AV)
15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

.Jeremiah. said:
Wow, quite an incredible post.

Clearly, everything is very clear to you.

LOL.

The scriptures are clear when we allow the Holy Spirit to do the interpreting and the teaching of the Bible he wrote through the prophets.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) by the scriptures themselves (Acts 17:11).

Yes, {HE} clears things up so we are not in the constant chasing of one's own tail / the tails of this theologian or that denominational doctrine (which dis agrees with other theologians and denominations) etc. This way we go to the source.

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

spiritfilledjm said:
As Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, yes...this would be true. John 1:1 would also seem to confirm this as well. It's kind of semantics though really. Like one of those "Welllll, technically but..." The Hebrew does state Elohim created the heavens and the earth. Not Emanuel or another OT name for Christ, therefore it wouldn't quite be correct that Jesus created man. It's like saying the brakes of a car makes it go fast because it is a part of the car. Each part has it's specific function, just like the God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Um... not to get too far down the defense of the Trinity path here... Jesus is not the Holy Spirit / never was. In John 14:26 and John 15:26 both the Father and the Son SEND the Holy Spirit into the world (meaning neither Father or Son are the Holy Spirit). You mention semantics, I agree semantic often tangle man's ability to understand the Triune God... for example, all three are Holy and all three are Spirit but only one is the Individual in the Godhead we refer to as the Holy Spirit.

Emanuel / Christ / Jesus are all the names of who God the Word would become in the incarnation. I pointed out that the one who would become Jesus is the Lone Creator in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 = John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2).

Jesus (preincarnate) is primarily who mankind dealt with in the Old Testament.

John 5:39–40 (AV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The only scriptures at the time were the Old Testament Tanakh.

John 8:58 (AV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14–15 (AV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Father was always there (1 John 1:2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). But Jesus is YHVH / the LORD whom mankind dealt with all along almost exclusively.

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jesus redeemed us by his sacrifice (a debt humanity owed the Father to whom Christ paid in full):

Isaiah 52:13–53:12 (AV)
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The late great Dr. Walter Ralston Martin used to teach God is YHVH the Father, YHVH the Son, YHVH the Holy Spirit. The term itself (I AM THAT I AM / I AM BECAUSE I AM) is more a description of the eternal nature of God than a name (which God took as a name btw). Each individual of the Godhead exists because they exist = are eternal. John 8:58 assures us Jesus (preincarnate) was the I AM of the Old Testament / in the burning bush. With few exceptions. This being a reference above to YHVH the Father to whom the sin debt of man was paid.

Satan was NOT paid off by Christ's sacrifice!
Satan was defeated by Christ's sacrifice!

The Father was the one whose wrath was staved off by the sacrifice of his own dear Son. The text says it "pleased him to bruise him" actually it means the debt was satisfied by Christ's sacrifice. God takes no pleasure in sin or suffering... and never ever underestimate how much the Father loves the Son!

His life, death, and resurrection are extremely huge matters to the Father.

John 16:27 (AV)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

Tolworth John said:
Sorry but Romans 1:3 says differently. That he was decended from David.

Romans 1:3 (AV)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

So, Jesus in his humanity (none are disputing his deity here) is half sin natured?

Is this not a reference rather to humanity (who at the time would not understand the first thing about surrogate motherhood) that he was counted legally as the heir of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Judah, David?

If Jesus was not fully human, that means with an ancestry he could not die in our place. He in effect died for his relatives as we are all decended from Adam.

If Jesus is the last Adam as 1 Corinthians 15:45 states he is (a prototype) he was created with the same innocence Adam and Eve had before the fall. Otherwise:

Romans 5:12 (AV)
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Jesus is repeatedly described as sinless in scripture.

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

Salvadore said:
My understanding is He is fully human and fully God. We must take into consideration our limited ability to grasp all concepts.

Jesus is fully God (John 1:1) and fully man (John 1:14).

1 Corinthians 15:45 (AV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

Agreed man's limited capacity for understanding does present a problem in grasping God or God's truth... all the more reason to allow the Holy Spirit alone to interpret the scriptures he wrote:

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Jesus prayed 3 times in John 17 that the Church be one as the Father and he are one. Look around at all the divisions (because of the will of man / traditions of man misinterpreting the scriptures).

Mark 7:13 (NIV84)
13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

Even the relationship with Christ is at stake here:

Mark 7:7 (NIV84)
7 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.’

JohnD70X7 · Aug 31, 2021

FaithWillDo said:
Dear JohnD,
I agree with most of what you stated. Especially when you said "there is only one creation of God the Father (John 1:14 / Hebrews 1:5 / Hebrews 10:5). The rest are creations of God the Son" and "he is not a descendant of the first Adam but is in fact the prototype of his own human race: population = Jesus".

Christ is the beginning of the creation of God:

Rev 3:14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

God the Father created His son Jesus and then through Jesus, He created everything else. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament. It was Jesus who spoke to Moses from the burning bush. Jesus was the one who wrestled with Jacob. Jesus was the one who walked in the Garden with Adam.

When Christ's work is finished, all who died in Adam will be made alive in Christ. Then God the Father will be "all in all".

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

This creation that mankind is experiencing is how God the Father produces His offspring. In the end, all mankind will be sons of God by the work of Christ. Christ is the beginning and the end.

Rev 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Christ is the first and only Son of God (first and last). When Christ has finished His work, all mankind will be "born again" and will be "in Christ". Because of this truth, we will share in His divine nature and status. This happens not because of man's "will" or "work". It happens solely because it is the "will" of God the Father for it to happen. Our salvation is because of His "Grace" (free gift) which is manifested in Christ. And because it is, Christ will do 100% of the work necessary to convert all mankind into new children of God the Father.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

To convert us, Christ will come to each of us at a time of His choosing and give us the necessary spiritual gifts. He comes to us because of "grace" and not because we invite Him to come. In fact, Christ won't even ask us for permission to do His spiritual work within us. He simply does it. Once we receive His "gifts", those "gifts" will cause us to repent of our own works, accept Christ as "Lord" and empower us to follow Him by Faith, knowing that He is the one who will accomplish our complete salvation. Mankind can contribute nothing.

What I have stated above is the Gospel of Christ. It is truly "Good News" for the world. Mankind's attempt to save themselves by their own works (called "religion") will always result in failure. This is true because mankind only has the power to make ourselves appear righteous from the outside. We have no ability to change ourselves from within (spiritually). Mankind was made "spiritually flawed" from the beginning and no amount of man's works can correct that issue. Because of our spiritual flaw, we quickly become controlled by our flesh (carnal nature). And because we are, we sin.

Eve displayed her carnal nature before she sinned.

Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food (LUST OF THE FLESH), and that it was pleasant to the eyes (LUST OF THE EYES), and a tree to be desired to make one wise (PRIDE OF LIFE), she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.

Since God the Father is wanting to produce offspring, why did He create mankind in such a spiritually flawed way?

He did not do it by mistake. For mankind to be "like" God, we must have a knowledge of "good and evil".

Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

What better way to teach "good and evil" to mankind than to make us experience evil. Once evil has run its course within mankind, Christ will come to each of us and spiritually change us into "good". This is called conversion. The process of conversion judges our old vessel and completely destroys it. But from this destruction, Christ will make us into a new vessel, as it seemed good from Him to make:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

When Christ came into the world in a body of flesh, He came spiritually perfect. As you pointed out, Christ is not from Adam. And because Jesus was spiritually perfect, He never became carnally minded and therefore, never sinned. Once mankind is given the same spiritual perfection of the Holy Spirit, we will never sin again.

Through scripture, Christ has revealed His plan to save all mankind. In this age, Christ is only saving the First-Fruits of His harvest. They are blessed and have been chosen from the foundation of the world. But in the next and final age (the Lake of Fire age), Christ will do His work within the rest of mankind. When the last person is converted, He will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to God the Father and God will then be "all in all". Then it will be testified to be true that Christ is truly mankind's Savior:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

God the Father created the body of the Lord Jesus...

Hebrews 10:5 (NIV84)
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;

Note the verse says when Christ came into the world he said (coming from heaven in preexistence).

Jesus Christ is God the Word incarnate. As God the Word, he was (as is) equal with the Father:

Philippians 2:6 (NIV84)
6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

The Greek: morphe theos huparchon = never ceasing to be God... he became a man.

Unless you imagine the Father had a beginning as well, then his being equal with the Father means as eternal as the Father (which john 8:58 and Exodus 3:14-15 also prove).

.

.Jeremiah. · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
LOL.

The scriptures are clear when we allow the Holy Spirit to do the interpreting and the teaching of the Bible he wrote through the prophets.

2 Peter 1:20–21 (AV)
20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

We are to test the spirits (1 John 4:1) by the scriptures themselves (Acts 17:11).

Yes, {HE} clears things up so we are not in the constant chasing of one's own tail / the tails of this theologian or that denominational doctrine (which dis agrees with other theologians and denominations) etc. This way we go to the source.

I surely agree with you.

But wonder why so very few people actually put it into practice?

.Jeremiah. · Aug 31, 2021

JohnD70X7 said:
Um... not to get too far down the defense of the Trinity path here... Jesus is not the Holy Spirit / never was. In John 14:26 and John 15:26 both the Father and the Son SEND the Holy Spirit into the world (meaning neither Father or Son are the Holy Spirit). You mention semantics, I agree semantic often tangle man's ability to understand the Triune God... for example, all three are Holy and all three are Spirit but only one is the Individual in the Godhead we refer to as the Holy Spirit.

Emanuel / Christ / Jesus are all the names of who God the Word would become in the incarnation. I pointed out that the one who would become Jesus is the Lone Creator in the beginning (Isaiah 44:24 = John 1:3 / Colossians 1:16 / Hebrews 1:2).

Jesus (preincarnate) is primarily who mankind dealt with in the Old Testament.

John 5:39–40 (AV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The only scriptures at the time were the Old Testament Tanakh.

John 8:58 (AV)
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Exodus 3:14–15 (AV)
14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this is my name for ever, and this is my memorial unto all generations.

The Father was always there (1 John 1:2) as was the Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2). But Jesus is YHVH / the LORD whom mankind dealt with all along almost exclusively.

Isaiah 44:24 (AV)
24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Jesus redeemed us by his sacrifice (a debt humanity owed the Father to whom Christ paid in full):

Isaiah 52:13–53:12 (AV)
13 Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled, and be very high.
14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men:
15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

The late great Dr. Walter Ralston Martin used to teach God is YHVH the Father, YHVH the Son, YHVH the Holy Spirit. The term itself (I AM THAT I AM / I AM BECAUSE I AM) is more a description of the eternal nature of God than a name (which God took as a name btw). Each individual of the Godhead exists because they exist = are eternal. John 8:58 assures us Jesus (preincarnate) was the I AM of the Old Testament / in the burning bush. With few exceptions. This being a reference above to YHVH the Father to whom the sin debt of man was paid.

Satan was NOT paid off by Christ's sacrifice!
Satan was defeated by Christ's sacrifice!

The Father was the one whose wrath was staved off by the sacrifice of his own dear Son. The text says it "pleased him to bruise him" actually it means the debt was satisfied by Christ's sacrifice. God takes no pleasure in sin or suffering... and never ever underestimate how much the Father loves the Son!

His life, death, and resurrection are extremely huge matters to the Father.

John 16:27 (AV)
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.

You surely have religion figured out very well.

You are very eloquent with your posts.
I would like to ask a question, but it’s one that I have not received an answer to, when I’ve asked it in the past.

Tolworth John · Sep 1, 2021

Clare73 said:
Through Mary, his mother.

Jesus is not descended from Adam.
In Biblical genealogy, descendance is reckoned through the father.
Jesus' father is God.

So according to you Mary is not decended from Adam.

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