The Trend Toward Atheism

Derf · Aug 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
I have no idea. But raising the dead is on our to-do list.

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give.

Ours? That was specifically given to the twelve three verses earlier. And they were specifically told NOT to go to the Gentiles. So even if that direction was supposed to be passed on from the twelve to their converts at the time, it wasn't intended (at least at that time) for the Gentiles.
[Mat 10:5 KJV] 5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into [any] city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Don't get me wrong. I think the church has done poorly at many times in history, including our own, at following Jesus' mandates. But is it possible that those things He promised were promised to a relatively few? Read it again:
[Jhn 14:12 KJV] 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Who was He talking to? The eleven faithful disciples for sure, and at least two others that must have been there based on the criteria used for Judas' replacement. But they were in the upper room, and it's unlikely that very many could fit in there. Probably not as many as 50.

What was the purpose of them being able to do works greater than Jesus did? I think that's alluded to in the previous and following verses:
[Jhn 14:11, 13 KJV] 11 Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. ... 13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

Works were for a testimony for getting people to believe in Jesus' relationship with the Father, AND that the Father would be glorified in the Son. Are such miracles needed for those two things? Or is preaching the truth of those things what is needed? I don't know the answer to that, but it seems to me that an initial preponderance of miraculous evidence might have been needed for the apostles to shown the authority Jesus had given them, and after that, there might have been less need for it.

Saint Steven · Aug 30, 2021

Derf said:
Don't get me wrong. I think the church has done poorly at many times in history, including our own, at following Jesus' mandates. But is it possible that those things He promised were promised to a relatively few? Read it again:
[Jhn 14:12 KJV] 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater [works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Looks like the qualifier is "He that believeth". Do you "believeth"?

Saint Steven · Aug 30, 2021

Derf said:
Works were for a testimony for getting people to believe in Jesus' relationship with the Father, AND that the Father would be glorified in the Son. Are such miracles needed for those two things? Or is preaching the truth of those things what is needed? I don't know the answer to that, but it seems to me that an initial preponderance of miraculous evidence might have been needed for the apostles to shown the authority Jesus had given them, and after that, there might have been less need for it.

Sounds like Cessationism to me. Did you tear 1 Corinthians 12-14 out of your Bible?

Clare73 · Aug 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Sounds like Cessationism to me. Did you tear 1 Corinthians 12-14 out of your Bible?

And?

Faith Unites · Aug 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Sounds like Cessationism to me. Did you tear 1 Corinthians 12-14 out of your Bible?

Cessationism doesn’t mean all gifts have stopped, just the charismatic ones. If they haven’t ceased then we havent had a real Christian in about 2 thousand years

Clare73 · Aug 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
This is a very complex issue. And I am of the opinion that the church has done more harm than good in this area. Sex has been cast as an evil and shameful thing. Typically Christian married couples have more hangups about sex than their unchurched neighbors. There has been a lot of push-back from society on these issues, and rightfully so. However, there needs to be a balance between morality on the one hand and a puritanical or Victorian mindset on the other. Church doors (for the most part) have been closed to the LGBTQ community. Sending a clear message of hatred.

So let's take a look at Christian love (agape).

It is patient, it is kind,
it does not envy, it does not boast,
it is not proud, it is not rude,
it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.

Don't see any indictment there of the church's response to open sin in the body.

It does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.

So speaking truth to open sin is not hatred, it is Christian love.

Jesus didn't embrace sin (John 5:14, John 8:11).

It is unchristian "love" that embraces open sin.

Yours is not a Biblical mind, it is a secular mind, the source of much of your error.

Faith Unites · Aug 30, 2021

Clare73 said:
So let's take a look at Christian love (agape).

It is patient, it is kind,
it does not envy, it does not boast,
it is not proud, it is not rude,
it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered,
it keeps no record of wrongs.

Don't see any indictment there of the church's response to open sin in the body.

It does not delight in evil, but rejoices with the truth.

Seems to me speaking truth to open sin is definitely in line with Christian love.

It’s just typical finger pointing. If anything the western church has adapted too much to the modern world. That is the primary issue, not Biblical fundamentalists, which I would argue is the only proper way to interpret the Bible lol

Derf · Aug 30, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Looks like the qualifier is "He that believeth". Do you "believeth"?

Believe that Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus? I sure do, even though I don’t know exactly what it means. Does that mean I’ll be doing miracles? I would love to have that gift, but I don’t, as far as I know. Not everyone has that gift. Is it possible that the ones that had it were the only ones, or at least very few have it now? Even probable.

And not everyone will have the gift of tongues. Do some in the church today? Maybe, but I don’t really think so. Certainly not many. It’s even dangerous.

I visited a charismatic church earlier this year, where one lady spoke in tongues several times. I read from 1Cor 11, as they invited me to participate, and the lady asked if I had interpreted what she said. She didn’t know what she had said, but would have accepted something I made up as from God. I’ve seen such “gifts” used to ensnare gullible people.

Jesus is my Superhero · Aug 31, 2021

Faith Unites said:
Cessationism doesn’t mean all gifts have stopped, just the charismatic ones. If they haven’t ceased then we havent had a real Christian in about 2 thousand years

A great many Charlatans out there, and it's hard to know the difference standing on the outside of such an organization. I tend to disbelieve most of the claims. We as Christians are admonished to prove all things. Anything flamboyant or spectacular is not from God in my view.

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Faith Unites said:
It’s just typical finger pointing. If anything the western church has adapted too much to the modern world. That is the primary issue, not Biblical fundamentalists, which I would argue is the only proper way to interpret the Bible lol

Have the role of women from a biblically fundamentalist view changed in the last 50 to 100 years? Or what is appropriate discipline for children? (beaten with a rod) If so, was this a change in the Bible, or a change in the interpretation?

What might the future hold?

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Derf said:
Does that mean I’ll be doing miracles? I would love to have that gift, but I don’t, as far as I know.

Only God can do miracles. We can do it the same way Jesus did. God tells you to do it, and you follow his instructions. (it's not about methodologies from my POV) We don't possess the gifts, the gifts possess us.

We need to understand that Jesus was operating in his humanity, not in his deity, when he did miracles. God the Father worked through him in the same way he works through us.

God has asked me to do things that I could never duplicate on my own. This isn't to say that he doesn't gift some. But that's not how it worked for me. I always want to be available. And when God wants me to do something, it's quite clear. Although, I'll pray for anyone that asks me to.

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Derf said:
Believe that Jesus is in God and God is in Jesus? I sure do, even though I don’t know exactly what it means. Does that mean I’ll be doing miracles? I would love to have that gift, but I don’t, as far as I know. Not everyone has that gift. Is it possible that the ones that had it were the only ones, or at least very few have it now? Even probable.

And not everyone will have the gift of tongues. Do some in the church today? Maybe, but I don’t really think so. Certainly not many. It’s even dangerous.

I visited a charismatic church earlier this year, where one lady spoke in tongues several times. I read from 1Cor 11, as they invited me to participate, and the lady asked if I had interpreted what she said. She didn’t know what she had said, but would have accepted something I made up as from God. I’ve seen such “gifts” used to ensnare gullible people.

I believe that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is attributing the work of God to Satan. (Mark 3:22)

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Faith Unites said:
Cessationism doesn’t mean all gifts have stopped, just the charismatic ones. If they haven’t ceased then we havent had a real Christian in about 2 thousand years

All the gifts are charismatic. (1 Corinthians 12:11)

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Derf said:
And not everyone will have the gift of tongues. Do some in the church today? Maybe, but I don’t really think so. Certainly not many. It’s even dangerous.

The "gift" of tongues is #3 on this list.

Five Different Kinds of Tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic prayer language - Addressing the whole church/preferably with interpretation
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

Jamdoc · Aug 31, 2021

Regarding the charismatic gifts...

I don't think the inane babbling done in those churches is what is actually referred to as speaking in tongues.

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Jamdoc said:
I don't think the inane babbling done in those churches is what is actually referred to as speaking in tongues.

No surprise there. You are Baptist, right?

Interesting that people that don't speak in tongues love to tell those who do how it should be done. (from their shallow well of ignorance)

The Liturgist · Aug 31, 2021

Saint Steven said:
Have the role of women from a biblically fundamentalist view changed in the last 50 to 100 years? Or what is appropriate discipline for children? (beaten with a rod) If so, was this a change in the Bible, or a change in the interpretation?

What might the future hold?

Fundamentalism itself is a novel doctrine, dating from Calvinists at the turn of the 20th century who overreacted against Modernism, which appeared in the late 19th century. It should not be confused with small o orthodoxy, which is best exemplified by the Orthodox, traditional High Church Anglicans and traditional Lutherans of Evangelical Catholic churchmanship, and historically, by John Wesley. Among theologians of our time, some of the more orthodox are Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, Fr. John Behr, Dr. Rowan Williams, and Pope Benedict XVI.

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Fundamentalism itself is a novel doctrine...

Progressive Christianity isn't what it used to be. - lol

Faith Unites · Aug 31, 2021

Saint Steven said:
No surprise there. You are Baptist, right?

Interesting that people that don't speak in tongues love to tell those who do how it should be done. (from their shallow well of ignorance)

Hindus speak in tongues. Are they also speaking in the spirit?

Saint Steven · Aug 31, 2021

Faith Unites said:
Hindus speak in tongues. Are they also speaking in the spirit?

That's an interesting question.
Do you mean speaking in their native tongue? (which would be "tongues" to us)
Or do you mean they are speaking in a language unknown to them?

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