Zephaniah

Douggg said:

My posts are not what you want to hear. But they do have content.

Try this... when you lay down to sleep, close your eyes, and speak to Jesus and implore - rest in Christ.

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Sure thing Dr Freud. Anything else? Want to hear about my mother?
In the meantime, any lurkers in this thread would see that you haven't answered 1% of the material put to you.
Zephaniah

keras said:

Ask your wise and learned buddy what the Jewish symbolism is for Zephaniah 1:18. Keep it short, so that the unlearned and simple people can understand it.
I have watched your video on Zephaniah. It wrongly says that Assyria and Babylon will do this punishment, whereas the prophecy says the Lord Himself will do it.

As for the vision I received; it was just momentary, when I was standing in the busy center of Nablus city. I saw it empty of people and I know I will go back there and all the ungodly peoples will be gone.
Great will be the Day!

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You see - what's the point? I already answered you, and then you turn around and ask the same question for the 20th time. Just because you don't like the answer - whether it's a bible commentary, Bible Project video, or me writing - doesn't mean you have NOT been answered. It means you can't be bothered doing the work reading it and responding to it intelligently. This is my post - a layman's summary of some of the work done by William J Dumbrell in "The Search for Order."
Zephaniah

keras said:

I have watched your video on Zephaniah. It wrongly says that Assyria and Babylon will do this punishment, whereas the prophecy says the Lord Himself will do it.

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Also, you've got a real problem here because the Lord says he'll do it and then the prophets tend to say various nations will do it and back and forth it goes. The Lord IS doing it through Assyria, or Babylon, or Persia. It's like you don't think God is Sovereign, and that the prophets can't see God's hand in the actions of the nations. Or - it's like you have such a strong case of confirmation bias for your own vision that you just can't see any other possibilities. The Lord did it = Assyria did it or Babylon did it.
Yet if you bother going back and reading my post - you'll see not EVERYTHING in Zephaniah is fulfilled. Yet. Zephaniah

Also, making 1:18 something to do with your Great Firey Day is just absurd. I mean, have you even read it? After describing war against Judah, Zephaniah is moved to describe the horror of the final Day of the Lord when all mankind is being judged. The Evangelical Commentary on the Bible - Walter A Lewell as editor explains that the following verse describes UNIVERSAL JUDGEMENT - the judgement of ALL mankind.

Neither their silver nor their gold
shall be able to deliver them
on the day of the wrath of the Lord.
In the fire of his jealousy,
all the earth shall be consumed;
for a full and sudden end
he will make of all the inhabitants of the earth.

Tell me, who escapes this? Where's the escape clause again? Just point it out. Highlight it in red. Make it bold. Because I can't see it.

This is universal judgment. Where's the escape for the 'baddies' to go on doing bad things? Who survives to become your "One World Government" or the AOD or the precious Armageddon of the futurists? No one. This isn't some 'minor' catastrophe like a global nuclear war - with survivors. Zephaniah is describing nothing less than JUDGEMENT DAY as I have described it countless times. That's honestly the only way I can see it. There's no wiggle room, no watering this down, or inserting other verses over it. God's war against his own people brings Zephaniah's mind to the Final JUDGEMENT DAY. Fire, angels, Jesus, NHNE, eternal judgment, eternal salvation for those who believe.

This is theology, not timetable; universal judgment, not global solar catastrophe with pockets of 'baddies' to survive and be all 'baddie' another day!

eclipsenow said:

Sure thing Dr Freud. Anything else? Want to hear about my mother?

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Well, I am not a doctor, nor a psychologist, but I do know Jesus.

eclipsenow said:

In the meantime, any lurkers in this thread would see that you haven't answered 1% of the material put to you.

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I did. In that video you posted on Matthew 24,

The speaker at your church referred to Luke 21, but ignored Luke 21:24.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

keras said:

Maybe the rabid dipsys won't make it to Beulah. They will still be looking up and doing rabbit hops, trying to float up to heaven.

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So only unlearned Christians, them knowing nothing of bible prophecy, will make up the Christian nation of Beulah ? You are going to be there, and not say anything about Daniel 9:27 and your end time scenario the whole time?

keras said:

The REBible translation of the last line:.....of all who live in the land.
The Hebrew word 'eratz' can mean 'earth or land. Obviously, if people care to read the rest of Zephaniah and any other Prophecy, not everyone dies then. The REB is correct; again.

This sudden destruction of the Lords enemies, by the fire of His jealousy, refers to the Middle East region. Proved by Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 63:1-6, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and many others.

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The following passages are obviously referring to the same event:

1 Thess 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

You're trying to say that 1 Thess 5:3 is about destruction only in the Middle East? Is that the impression you get from what Peter wrote in 2 Peter 3:10-12 about the same event, that his description of the heavens and earth burning up only applies to the Middle East? If so, you have to be kidding me.

Bad theology, as there is no mention of everybody standing before God in Judgment.
Your beliefs defy common sense, let alone the whole Bible narrative.

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You mean other than Matthew 25:31-46? I would say that you not acknowledging that Matthew 25:31-46 mentions everybody standing before God in Judgment defies common sense. God has set one future day to judge the world (Acts 17:30-31). But, your doctrine contradicts that because you believe in two future judgment days.

Douggg said:

I did. In that video you posted on Matthew 24,

The speaker at your church referred to Luke 21, but ignored Luke 21:24.

24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

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How did he ignore that?
Surely that's just describing the diaspora and Acts 1:8

eclipsenow said:

How did he ignore that?
Surely that's just describing the diaspora and Acts 1:8

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I don't remember the exact details of the video, but he ignored Luke 21:24, just like everyone else who claims that the abomination of desolation has already taken place. He was trying to paint a picture that the great tribulation had already happened.

The abomination of desolation is time of the end, in Daniel 12.

keras said:

As my guide is what the Bible prophets say, like Isaiah 28:14-15, then the rulers of Beulah at that time; will agree to a 7 year peace treaty with the Leader of the One World Govt.
My guess is they will do it soon after the Gog/Magog attack, lulled by complacency and confidence.

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Keras, you have some things wrong. With just a little bit of reasoning, you should know that Christians are not going to build a temple and start sacrificing animals.

And Christians certainly would not enter into a covenant or any kind of an agreement for 7 years with a world leader.'

Christians around the world have no desire to move Israel. There is no reason for them to. Especially following an apocalyptic events.

keras said:

The REBible translation of the last line:.....of all who live in the land.

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I understand that argument, I'm just saying what the commentary said - the universal nature of the judgement coming. Now this could be quite standard Hebrew hyberbole for "Day of the Lord" language about the judgement coming against all God's enemies in THAT generation, OR it could be a nod forward (in types and shadows) that the New Testament later unpacks about Judgement Day. What I DON'T see is him clarifying that it is suddenly 2000 or so years later, and that anyone is going to survive this day - whether we are talking about "the land" (Middle East or known world) or entire planet. In many cases it seems to be the one and the same thing anyway. The promised land and the nations around were the whole world to this unfolding plan of God in his people. The bible doesn't concern itself with the aboriginals or the Maori.

Obviously, if people care to read the rest of Zephaniah and any other Prophecy, not everyone dies then.

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IF the prophet has disclosed something of the Last Day while discussing the more local OT "Day of the Lord" judgement against THAT generation - then he's allowed to discuss that and move back to cover local issues again. But I'm not totlaly sold on the idea that this is the Last Day. It could be - or it might not be. Theologians I respect are in both camps - but what they agree on is that it is theological in nature, not a timetable.
Where Zephaniah talks about God sending fire, the prophets of his day talked about Babylon bringing fire. Zephaniah is showing the horror of God's judgement against them in profound imagery. YES - the prophets used imagery - the imagery of fire and uncreation - to describe war. If you haven't got that by now, then you just aren't reading the same bible I am.

This sudden destruction of the Lords enemies, by the fire of His jealousy, refers to the Middle East region.

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Your post-discovery era scientific view of Earth as a planet is quite alien to the concerns of these prophets. You sure do like to shove your modern presuppositions all over their writings, assuming they had similar concerns and views to yours.

Proved by Ezekiel 30:1-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Isaiah 17:1, Isaiah 63:1-6, 1 Thessalonians 5:3 and many others.

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It's sad how you pluck these things out of context.
Ezekiel is about God using Babylon to attack Israel and other enemies like Egypt and Tyre. 30:4 even mentions a sword. Ezekiel 20:1-7 is all about God's sword (Babylon) and from verse 18 shows how Ezekiel is meant to make a signpost for the Babylonian king as a sign! I mean, how obvious is it?
I don't really have time to address your Isaiah references today as it is a big book and I'm writing on my lunchbreak - but your 1 Thessalonians 5:3 reference is about the suddenness and unexpected nature of Judgement Day. I don't know why you're quoting it to explain why you read Zephaniah a certain way?
Context. Make it your friend.

Douggg said:

Keras, you have some things wrong. With just a little bit of reasoning, you should know that Christians are not going to build a temple and start sacrificing animals.

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Well, at least you have that right.

But you still haven't addressed 1% of the stuff in my original answer to your question.

Douggg said:

I don't remember the exact details of the video, but he ignored Luke 21:24, just like everyone else who claims that the abomination of desolation has already taken place.

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Note: the disciples asked Jesus about THAT TEMPLE.
That temple WAS destroyed.
IT HAPPENED.
The Romans sacrificed to their Eagles standard - basically representing Caesar - while God's temple burned. Any questions? Good.

He was trying to paint a picture that the great tribulation had already happened.

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There's Jesus language in describing the temple and the persecution of the disciples leading up to that. It also applies as a warning to all who live in the last days (2000 years and counting) that there will be terrible times, like the Black Plague, Boxing Day Tsunami, etc.

The abomination of desolation is time of the end, in Daniel 12.

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The original AOD was Antiochus. Jesus was comparing the shame and pain of Jerusalem in the Roman attack to worse than that of Antiochus. But the main point? WHY? Why would Jesus take them there and tell them about the end of that temple? Why would he talk architecture in the last week of his life?

Because it was the last week of his life.
He was reminding them that the temple wasn't where true sacrifice occurred - that Jesus was the temple that would be destroyed and rebuilt in 3 days.

We don't need it.
We don't want it.
And I'm so embarrassed that so many Christians today read the Olivet Discourse and think "Of course he means a still hypothetical third temple!" when the disciples where standing there in front of Jesus asking about THAT temple, THOSE huge stones, etc. Christians today obsessing about this passage being in the future somehow just makes me wince.

"These things" = the temple being destroyed in that generation - something they could see coming and run away from.

In contrast, THAT DAY will be inescapable, universal, unavoidable and unpredictable.