Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

robycop3 said:

There are a couple of preterist "safe houses" here where prets can post their stuff free of counterposts. However, I KNOW preterism is false, both partial and full. And here's how I know:

Full preterism is false because it's VERY-OBVIOUS Jesus hasn't returned. When He does return, He will be seen by all, as He said He will take over the rule of the world after casting the antichrist & false prophet alive into hell. He and His saints will reign over the earth for 1K years. And obviously, that hasn't occurred yet. if you think it has, please tell us the beast/antichrist's name, the date he took power, the name of his sidekick the false prophet, and describe the mark of the beast.

Partial is false because Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue !

I have in front of me the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's, & World Book encyclopediae. And the occurrence of those events is NOT found in ANY of them.
Why?
They simply HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED !

Prets try to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status to attempt to cover their lack of evidence for their doctrine, but that won't work, either.

Just face it, Ladies & Gents; your doctrine simply isn't true.

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Because Jesus knew that the Pharisees thought the kingdom of God would be a physical kingdom, Jesus told them the following when asked when it would come. Ironically, you and many others who believe the same as the Pharisees keep arguing that you haven't seen what Jesus said you wouldn't see.

Luke 17: 20Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, 21nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.”

John 14: 19Yet a little while and the world will see me no more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live.

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.

robycop3 said:

There are a couple of preterist "safe houses" here where prets can post their stuff free of counterposts. However, I KNOW preterism is false, both partial and full. And here's how I know:

Full preterism is false because it's VERY-OBVIOUS Jesus hasn't returned. When He does return, He will be seen by all, as He said He will take over the rule of the world after casting the antichrist & false prophet alive into hell. He and His saints will reign over the earth for 1K years. And obviously, that hasn't occurred yet. if you think it has, please tell us the beast/antichrist's name, the date he took power, the name of his sidekick the false prophet, and describe the mark of the beast.

Partial is false because Jesus said He'd return IMMEDIATELY AFTER the great trib. If the trib has already occurred, Jesus is long-overdue !

I have in front of me the Encyclopaedia Britannica, Collier's, & World Book encyclopediae. And the occurrence of those events is NOT found in ANY of them.
Why?
They simply HAVEN'T YET OCCURRED !

Prets try to reduce "inconvenient" Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status to attempt to cover their lack of evidence for their doctrine, but that won't work, either.

Just face it, Ladies & Gents; your doctrine simply isn't true.

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Love the title I bursted out in laughter because it's so true. Even if God hasn't given you full understanding of revelation anyone with logical sense can see this is future events it will be the end of this age.

robycop3 said:

He simply said that not stone would be left upon another; he didn't say when.

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I didn't say He predicted the date, but we know that did happen in 70 AD.

But in Luke 21, He proclaimed "days of vengeance" upon that generation of Jews, holding them responsible for the murders of every righteous person, from Abel up to that time.

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Are you saying that you think His answer to the question is recorded in Luke 21, but, for some inexplicable reason, it's not recorded in Matthew 24 (or Mark 13)?

robycop3 said:

No interp to it. The definition of the AOD was set in the 160s BC when Antiochus Epiphanes, the Seleucid ruler of Judea at the time, entered the temple, set up a statue of Zeus in it, & sacrificed a pig upon the altar. Thus, the antichrist will enter the new temple the Jews will build, set up a statue of himself in it, stop the sacrifices the Jews had been doing, & declare himself God. (I can't think of a greater abomination to God than a human declaring himself God no matter where he is.)

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I am not a Preterist, but I notice you make a lot of claims here without any Scripture. Where is your NT evidence that there will be a rebuilt temple and that antichrist is a literal man?

Douggg said:

The Antichrist is when the person is the King of Israel (Anti - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel).

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And the Chapter and Verse where the Bible supplies this definition of Antichrist is located....where?

Jerryhuerta said:

The seven churches represent the seven months or epochs between the spring and autumnal festivals, which by any wise account represent this age and the mediation by Christ upon his New Testament Church.

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And the Chapter and Verse(s) that teach this "Seven Church/Month/Epoch/Age" conflation is located...where?

Douggg said:

I just checked the English translation of Numbers 24 at the Jews site at Chabad, of their online Tanach. And no Gog in it.

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Of course, you realize that if a Jewish site would read that the nation of Israel in the LXX was associated with the notorious "Gog" character, there would be no reason why they would want to preserve that...not good PR. Consider the source. Sounds as if somebody sanitized things on purpose.

3 Resurrections said:

Of course, you realize that if a Jewish site would read that the nation of Israel in the LXX was associated with the notorious "Gog" character, there would be no reason why they would want to preserve that...not good PR. Consider the source. Sounds as if somebody sanitized things on purpose.

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Agag is in the kjv and not Gog, in numbers 24.

I think it is more a matter of mistranslating Agag as Gog, as one issue between the LXX and the kjv. Agag was a king of Amalek. 1Samuel15:20.

Balak was king of Moab. Joshua 24:9

Here is a link to a site that has some good maps.

Bible Atlas

What I am reading is that Amalek was a country, for the lack of a better word, that was the first to try and roadblock the children of Israel from entering the promised land.

So it is not Gog but Agag king of Amalek. The king of Israel would be greater than Agag.

Balak was the one conspiring with Ballam. Balak was the king of Moab, a country east of the dead sea.

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I appreciate the information though about Gog being in the English translation of the LXX in Numbers 24.

Douggg said:

Agag is in the kjv and not Gog, in numbers 24

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For the better part of my Christian life, the KJV was the only version I used. No more. I believe they have goofed on this text in Numbers 24. Zechariah 14:4-5 is another passage where the KJV has messed up compared to the LXX. These days, I usually compare numerous versions, and the LXX is one that I particularly enjoy.

Yet even in the KJV, Gog's battle is STILL one that has Israelites fighting against their brother Israelites in Ezekiel 38:21. And all of Gog's forces were armed with a sword. There was much ANCIENT weaponry being used in Gog's battle - which does not align with modern-day warfare. And Gog's battle mop-up operations were staged at a time when Israel was still attempting to follow Mosaic law by avoiding human contact with dead human bones, which would have rendered them ritually unclean.

robycop3 said:

Yes, there WILL. The abomination of desolation hasn't yet occurred, & there must be a temple for it to happen in.

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Still haven't figured out the naos spiritual temple of the Church in 2 Thessalonians 2:4?

3 Resurrections said:

Yet even in the KJV, Gog's battle is STILL one that has Israelites fighting against their brother Israelites in Ezekiel 38:21.

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It doesn't say that the Jews are fighting against Jews in the text. Or that the Jews are fighting anyone. God supernaturally destroys Gog's army. He confuses them, that they are attacking each other.

3 Resurrections said:

This kind of interpretation goes beyond Christ's own interpretation of the vision he gave to John. He only went as far as saying "...the seven candlesticks which thou sawest ARE the seven churches." If Jesus had intended to extend the metaphor by saying the churches then further represented "seven epochs" which would then further represent "seven months between spring and autumn festivals", He would have said so. But He didn't. That is going WAY BEYOND what Jesus said. How do you justify adding to Jesus's own interpretation of the vision He gave to John?

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Many interpretations in Christianity go far beyond what the Bible states outright, and some are unfounded and some on solid ground. The issue of the seven churches is an issue of progressive revelation on solid ground that has been established in Christianity by notable theologians for over a hundred years. As for myself, I don't hold preterist theologians credible.

What really goes beyond what is able to be upheld in the Revelation is the preterist notion that Christ's mediation concerns the curses of the Old Covenant, which follows if it is about the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 over violation of the Old Covenant. Now that's a case of putting words in Christ's mouth. Apparently, they have little understanding of the book to the Hebrews.


Christ's mediation is over issues pertaining to the New Covenant, over the Church, heavenly Jerusalem, which make the Revelation about this heavenly Jerusalem, not the one that was in bondage according to Galatians 4:25.

robycop3 said:

MMRRPP ! WRONG !

The 7 churches were congregations that existed at the time the Rev was given. remember, Jesus told John to send each one a letter & told him what to pot in each letter. There are TYPES of all 7 of them existing today. The "7church ages" doctrine is as phony as preterism.

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Actually, a good number of notable dispensationalists agree that the seven churches were historical but also represent seven epochs. Chapter 22. The Seven Churches - Dispensational Truth - Study Resources

parousia70 said:

And the Chapter and Verse(s) that teach this "Seven Church/Month/Epoch/Age" conflation is located...where?

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You first, chapter and verse that substantiates the Revelation is about mediatorial repercussion under the Old Covenant, which follows the notion it’s about ancient Jerusalem.

Douggg said:

It doesn't say that the Jews are fighting against Jews in the text. Or that the Jews are fighting anyone. God supernaturally destroys Gog's army. He confuses them, that they are attacking each other.

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Of course Gog was coming against Israel, which did result in Jews attacking one another. That was stated multiple times in Ezekiel 38. "Thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land;..." (v. 16), "And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel,..." (v. 18), "...thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel...", (v. 8), etc..
This conflict was described by God as "every man's hand shall be against his brother". It was CIVIL WAR accomplished by the Zealots, with Gog as Israel fighting against their brother Israelites in the land of Israel and in Jerusalem itself in AD 69.

I agree with you that this was a foreordained defeat for Gog, crushed by God as foretold even from ancient days. "Pestilence and blood" "great hailstones" (from the catapults), "fire and brimstone" (Jerusalem's Lake of Fire) with "every wall falling to the ground" (Jerusalem's walls finally being torn down where Simon's army had set themselves up against the competing Zealot factions); all of these were experienced by the close of the blistering AD 66-70 era, when the Judean Scarlet Beast led by the Zealots had all of Jerusalem by the throat, and had been "treading it down for 42 months".

I agree with you that God "confuses them, that they are attacking each other". This was the "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie". The Zealots were convinced from their own Daniel prophecies that they would finally be masters of the world if they could manage to raise up Daniel's promised "Messiah the Prince" to do battle with the Romans. Since they had rejected Jesus as being that Messiah back in AD 33, they were determined to come up with their own "Messiah" - a warrior type king of the Jews that they mistakenly presumed was Daniel's intended meaning. This is why the Zealot faction leaders were fighting each other so desperately; each one selfishly wanted to be the fulfillment of the prophesied "Messiah" role in Israel, and they each were willing to go to any lengths to achieve that goal - even if it meant attacking their fellow Israelites.

It was mainly this internal warfare between the Zealot factions that weakened Jerusalem sufficiently, so that the Romans were finally able to take the city. If the Zealot factions with their leaders had been in unity against their common enemy, they would have held Jerusalem for years to come. But that's not what God intended. He designed for that Old Covenant Temple and its priesthood to be destroyed down to the last stone, and he used Gog in the person of Simon bar Gioras to help accomplish that purpose. God "took away the first" (physical Temple) "that he may establish the second" (spiritual Temple).

robycop3 said:

But those things haven't yet happened, so you need a new definition of "this generation" as used by Jesus in Matt. 24.

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If you take things very literally.

Revelation is extremely misunderstood and misinterpreted.

Jerryhuerta said:

Apparently, they have little understanding of the book to the Hebrews.

For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar. For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. (Hebrews 12-14)
Christ's mediation is over issues pertaining to the New Covenant, over the Church, heavenly Jerusalem, which make the Revelation about this heavenly Jerusalem, not the one that was in bondage according to Galatians 4:25.

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As a Preterist, I am passionately devoted to the book of Hebrews. It lays out undeniable evidence that Christ retained His physical, glorified, resurrected body form to serve as our deathless high priest in heaven, after the order of Melchizedek's deathless high priesthood example.

It's true, the main focus of Revelation's message was to reveal that God was about to shake the Old Covenant to its foundations and dissolve it's remaining physical elements entirely, so that the superior ALREADY EXISTING New Covenant reality of the New Jerusalem could stand alone, unshaken by the whole process that had destroyed the Old Jerusalem.

Jerryhuerta said:

You first, chapter and verse that substantiates the Revelation is about mediatorial repercussion under the Old Covenant, which follows the notion it’s about ancient Jerusalem.

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From AD 66-70, the city of Jerusalem fell under the powerful curses outlined in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28.

Read Deuteronomy 28 closely:
49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you. 52 “They shall besiege you at all your gates until your high and fortified walls, in which you trust, come down throughout all your land; and they shall besiege you at all your gates throughout all your land which the Lord your God has given you. 53 You shall eat the fruit of your own body, the flesh of your sons and your daughters whom the Lord your God has given you, in the siege and desperate straits in which your enemy shall distress you.

Luke foretells of this same event, fulfilling Deuteronomy 28:
Luke 21:20-22
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 22 For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

(It is important to note that Luke 21:20-22 is entirely paralell to Mark 13:14-19 & Matthew 24:15-21)

Now, Pay special attention to Leviticus 26:14-33
14 ‘But if you do not obey Me, and do not observe all these commandments,
15 and if you despise My statutes, or if your soul abhors My judgments, so that you do not perform all My commandments, but break My covenant,
16 I also will do this to you:
I will even appoint terror over you, wasting disease and fever which shall consume the eyes and cause sorrow of heart.
And you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it.
17 I will set My face against you, and you shall be defeated by your enemies.
Those who hate you shall reign over you, and you shall flee when no one pursues you.
18 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.
19 I will break the pride of your power;
I will make your heavens like iron and your earth like bronze.
20 And your strength shall be spent in vain;
for your land shall not yield its produce, nor shall the trees of the land yield their fruit.
21 ‘Then, if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to obey Me, I will bring on you seven times more plagues, according to your sins.
22 I will also send wild beasts among you, which shall rob you of your children, destroy your livestock, and make you few in number;
and your highways shall be desolate.
23 ‘And if by these things you are not reformed by Me, but walk contrary to Me,
24 then I also will walk contrary to you, and I will punish you yet seven times for your sins.
25 And I will bring a sword against you that will execute the vengeance of the covenant;
when you are gathered together within your cities I will send pestilence among you;
and you shall be delivered into the hand of the enemy.
26 When I have cut off your supply of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and they shall bring back your bread by weight, and you shall eat and not be satisfied.
27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me,
28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury;
and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins.
29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters.
30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols;
and My soul shall abhor you.
31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas.
32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.
33 I will scatter you among the nations and draw out a sword after you;
your land shall be desolate and your cities waste.

As you can see, this is not God merely turning His back and ALLOWING these things to come upon them...

66-70 AD was the fulfillment of Deuteronomy 28:15-68, and Leviticus 26:14-33, brought to pass by the ACTIVE, WILLFUL Hand of God, exactly as He promised He would do.

Matthew 21 Gives us the timing of this fulfillment:
Matthew 21:33-45
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:

34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.

35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.

36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.

37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.

38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.

39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.

40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?

41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.

42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they understood that he spake of them.

We know this Old Covenant Judgement takes place via "The Coming of the Lord of the Vineyard" AFTER the son has been Killed.

We Know Jesus is one with the Father and therefore IS The Lord of the Vineyard, indeed He is the Great "I Am".

Revelation Clearly depicts this very Coming:

1. Revelation 3:11
   Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
   
   
2. Revelation 22:7
   “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
   
   
3. Revelation 22:12
   Jesus Testifies to the Churches
   “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

The last Passage is most instructive for us, as it clearly says this coming of the Lord Jesus, who is the Lord of the Vineyard, is to Juge everyone according to their WORK, which is clearly a Judgement per the terms of the OLD COVENANT.

Your Turn. Please now answer my question from Post #126 Above.

parousia70 said:

Revelation Clearly depicts this very Coming:

1. Revelation 3:11
   Behold, I am coming quickly! Hold fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.
   
   
2. Revelation 22:7
   “Behold, I am coming quickly! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy of this book.”
   
   
3. Revelation 22:12
   Jesus Testifies to the Churches
   “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

The last Passage is most instructive for us, as it clearly says this coming of the Lord Jesus, who is the Lord of the Vineyard, is to Juge everyone according to their WORK, which is clearly a Judgement per the terms of the OLD COVENANT.

Your Turn. Please now answer my question from Post #126 Above.

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Preterists make much of phrases like “at hand,” “quickly,” “shortly” or “near.” They use these to support their belief that Jesus has already come, the last day has already occurred and that we are now living in the new heavens and new earth.

The mistake they make is that they always interpret these from man’s standpoint and thus get confused as to their meaning. Of course, from man’s outlook these terms would normally suggest that something is just around the corner. But such terms are totally relative. We should always remember, the Bible speaks in God’s time. God’s near, quickly or shortly are completely different from man’s perspective. God’s soon is not always our soon. Our knowledge of biblical truth, our awareness of the context in question, a study of the meaning and usage of the original Greek words, and our ascertaining whether something is being explained from man’s finite viewpoint or God’s eternal perspective, aid us in understanding the time and event in view.

On this matter, a basic understanding of “time” and “eternity” will explain what we are looking at in Scripture. The phrase “at hand” or “near” is taken from the single Greek word eggizō, and simply means “approaches.” It is not time-specific. It can mean immediate or distant future, like our English word. In fact, it carries the exact same sense as our English word. It carries a broad meaning and does not in any way demand an imminent fulfilment. Other words like “quickly,” “shortly” and “near,” express time from God’s eternal standpoint, not man’s natural position. It is therefore wrong to force our dim earthly sense of time upon God. It is definitely foolish to build a whole theology upon that.