the standard of righteousness

DaDaBrothers

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When Paul says we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:8-9, he is referring to Initial Salvation and not continued salvation via Sanctification after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is saying that our Initial and Foundational Salvation is God’s grace through faith in Christ and it is a gift. Gifts are received one time, right? So that means Paul is referring to Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

This is a good resolve.. Good problem solving..
My only objection is in your made up concept of "Initial salvation".

Consider this parable in Luke 8:5

A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus told us "The seed is the word of God." But you are telling us that it is "Initial salvation" which is not, you are not "initially saved" because you received the seed, like in the parable: some seeds were trodden down, others devoured by fowls, some seeds withered away and some were choked.

So, you are not saved until you bare fruit, because the word of God is planted all over the field, but only the good ground bare fruit. Only the good ground is saved.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I would argue this refers to the keeping of the commands, and the doing of the works with patience. Of course, glory to God who does the watering, so all of the works and the seed and even the sowing is Gods grace.

Its funny you had to make two kinds of salvation to solve this hum? The "initial salvation" is not salvation, is receiving the word of God, then you are saved if you bare fruit.
 
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TedT

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Being holy does not require perfection of Man. It requires that we follow a holy God, partaking of His holiness.
I agree that being set aside for GOD for HIS service by someone or by GOD is a definition of holiness which makes inanimate objects and sinners able to be called holy...

...but the definition of holy used to describe a free will choice to be in accord with GOD's nature and purpose for our creation so as to be righteous and holy is also a real definition and pertinent to this topic as this is the only definition that makes the command to "Be holy for your GOD is holy!" to be sensible.

The command is NOT to get someone to declare you as set apart for HIS service as if you were a knife or a candle, but for you to CHOOSE to be set apart by your free will which is only perfected in the perfection of the person by a total repugnance and avoidance of all hint of any aroma of sin, ie, the decision to become sinlessly perfect, the reason we were given a free will. This decision is fulfilled by our sinless perfection and nothing less.
 
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TedT

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I'm not advocating for living unholy lives. But we obviously are not perfect yet--not until the resurrection!
Do you not see a hint that our enslavement to evil is broken (probably by our re-birth) and our free will returned in Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love.? This call also cannot be fulfilled without a sinless perfection in the person serving as love cannot be forced but must be chosen by a free will.
 
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RandyPNW

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Do you not see a hint that our enslavement to evil is broken (probably by our re-birth) and our free will returned in Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom; but do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh. Rather, serve one another in love.? This call also cannot be fulfilled without a sinless perfection in the person serving as love cannot be forced but must be chosen by a free will.

Yes, the power of sin is broken in our lives--it does not control us. But it still tempts us, and causes anything we do to be somewhat tainted.

But it cannot stop us from producing Christ's righteousness in our lives. It cannot stop us from loving, even if we are harassed from within by conflicting attitudes like hate, envy, and jealousy. We simply have to overcome these things with God's love.
 
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RandyPNW

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I agree that being set aside for GOD for HIS service by someone or by GOD is a definition of holiness which makes inanimate objects and sinners able to be called holy...

...but the definition of holy used to describe a free will choice to be in accord with GOD's nature and purpose for our creation so as to be righteous and holy is also a real definition and pertinent to this topic as this is the only definition that makes the command to "Be holy for your GOD is holy!" to be sensible.

The command is NOT to get someone to declare you as set apart for HIS service as if you were a knife or a candle, but for you to CHOOSE to be set apart by your free will which is only perfected in the perfection of the person by a total repugnance and avoidance of all hint of any aroma of sin, ie, the decision to become sinlessly perfect, the reason we were given a free will. This decision is fulfilled by our sinless perfection and nothing less.

Yes, but what is sensible to you is not the reality. The reality is that as born again believers we have been given permanent access to God's Spirit and love, so that His pure love is poured through our hearts and into our actions. We produce *His perfection* through our works.

None of this means that we ourselves are perfect. It's like running pure water through a dirty hose, or through contaminated pipes. The pure water gets through, but so does the contaminants.

We are sinners, as 1 John 1 clearly states. I wouldn't challenge the apostle, if I was you! Nor should you live in denial about your own inherent imperfections and sins. Every time you treat someone imperfectly it is more than a choice against Christ--it is a choice that can't completely be helped.

We are contaminated, and you just can't live in such denial. We need to be kind to ourselves too, knowing that all God wants is for us to open up to His Spirit, and let the pure water pour through. He forgives the rest. His burden is light.

Gradually, we learn to curtail our bad choices, and we habituate ourselves to obeying Christ's word. We remain tempted to do the wrong things, but with time, we train ourselves to go against our contaminated carnal impulses, and choose to do what we know is right by our conscience.

Christianity is, I think, all about training ourselves to obey our conscience when often the impulse is to go our own way. We can, in fact, mature.
 
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RandyPNW

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"No man can serve two masters" so you are either Holy, or unholy. There is no fellowship between light and darkness. And God commanded you to be Holy.

What I believe that is talking about is a lifestyle, and not perfection. To live a Christian lifestyle is to be holy.

Even our Christian lifestyle is never perfect. But God considers it holy because we have chosen to make Christ the main impetus in our life.

When we choose him to be the Lord over all of our independent choices, we begin to learn to live the Christian lifestyle, which indeed is considered "holy" by God.
 
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RandyPNW

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The gospel is not "accept" Jesus. ..the gospel is believe in/trust on Jesus (John 3:18), and his atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," justified, righteous.

I'm sorry. If you can't even see the relationship of "accept" to "believe," then we've lost our conversation. They are virtually synonymous as I use the word "accept." To accept the Gospel is to believe the Gospel. Trying to draw up these kinds of distinctions makes communication impossible.
 
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TedT

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We are sinners, as 1 John 1 clearly states. I wouldn't challenge the apostle, if I was you!
Are you nuts? Claiming we will be perfected in holiness and righteousness and not remain sinners does not go against the content in that only sinners are born on earth!
 
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Clare73

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I'm sorry. If you can't even see the relationship of "accept" to "believe," then we've lost our conversation. They are virtually synonymous as I use the word "accept." To accept the Gospel is to believe the Gospel. Trying to draw up these kinds of distinctions makes communication impossible.
They are not virtually synonymous in the NT.

"Accept" is passive. . .while to "believe" is to trust, which is not passive.

It's not a minor distinction in the nature of saving faith and in understanding its operation in salvation.
 
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DaDaBrothers

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The reality is that as born again believers we have been given permanent access to God's Spirit and love
"permanent" gives a false sense of security, I reccomend you watch your step.. It is required of you to walk in the Light.
Anyways the reality is Scripture:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

But you go on to say: "None of this means that we ourselves are perfect."
The Holy Spirit cannot sin, If you have His seed you cannot sin, because you are "born of God", so there is no imperfection whatsoever at all, if this is not perfection, then nothing is.

We are sinners, as 1 John 1 clearly states.

This is the verse all the sinners use to say they have to sin perpetually, until death..
But John is not saying we are all sinners who are doomed to be forever enslaved to sin forever, and will never cease from sin, no. Look at context and remember we have the Lord to put an end to this mess.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First John explains how we can be cleanseth from all sin, then, since we are talking about sins to cleanse, we cannot say that we have no sin (to cleanse), right?

We do have sin, and it can be cleansed.. All of it.. If you walk in the light, you become Holy, and without sin. Also if it were impossible to have no sin, it would be impossible to cleanse you from ALL sin, so you decide, Holy or sinner. Light or darkness.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And I plead of you: Don't assume everyone here is a sinner, just because you are, neither assume we "live in denial about your own inherent imperfections and sins", because you are calling everyone a devil..
1 John 3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

As for "inherent imperfections" We are made at the image of God (perfect).
This is what Scripture says:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

They weren't born sinners, they became vain, and their foolish hearth was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


Randy: "To live a Christian lifestyle is to be holy. Even our Christian lifestyle is never perfect."

Randy beware.. Holy is perfect, if your "lifestyle" is not perfect (yet) you are not Holy.
Because the Holy Spirit is perfect and cannot sin, so you cannot say you are holy and imperfect. No serving to masters, Perfect or imperfect. Holy or sinner.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
 
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This is a good resolve.. Good problem solving.. My only objection is in your made up concept of "Initial salvation".

Initial Salvation is clearly taught in the Bible in many places, my friend.

“For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (Romans 10:13).​

Is this referring exclusively to a life long event or is it referring to how to be initially saved?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17).​

“How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!” (Romans 10:14-15).

What gospel?

“Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain. For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:” (1 Corinthians 15:1-4).
The gospel is believing that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He rose again the third day.
That’s the gospel!

Notice it says that they received this gospel and they stand upon it and it by believing this gospel by which they are saved.

“For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:18).

In fact, Romans 9-11 is written to the unbelieving Jewish nation that needed to be initially saved.

Jesus said to certain people that their sins are forgiven.

“And he said unto her, Thy sins are forgiven.” (Luke 7:48).

“And, behold, they brought to him a man sick of the palsy, lying on a bed: and Jesus seeing their faith said unto the sick of the palsy; Son, be of good cheer; thy sins be forgiven thee.” (Matthew 9:2).​

Forgiveness of sin is naturally tied to salvation.

“To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,” (Luke 1:77).​

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation because… Ephesians 2:1 says, “And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” (Ephesians 2:1).

Quickened is past tense here.

Ephesians 2:8-9 also compares this salvation by grace to the receiving of a gift. Gifts are received one time last I checked. You don’t keep giving the gift back and then receive it again, etc.

Ephesians 2:5 says, “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )”​

Saved is past tense.

Also, the word quickened means to be “made alive.” The New King James says for Ephesians 2:5:

“even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),”

Titus 3 says:

“But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.” (Titus 3:4-7).​

According to His mercy he SAVED us. Past tense His mercy saved us. It’s not by works of righteousness which we have done would be a direct contradiction of James 2:17, and James 2:24 unless Paul is referring to a different aspect of salvation (i.e. Initial Salvation in being saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law).

“And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.” (Luke 18:13). Unless we are to assume that the believer is to never overcome grievous sin in this life, I believe the Tax Collector’s case was in reference to Initial Salvation; Especially when Jesus told two people to “sin no more” (John 5:14) (John 8:11).

Acts of the Apostles 16:30-31, we learn about the jailer being told to simply believe on the Lord Jesus Christ to be saved. Paul and Silas never gave any details to this man. They said believe on Jesus. That’s it. The jailer was not given any further instructions on what he must do.

Anyways, I will try and address the rest of what you wrote (Lord willing).

May God bless you, friend.
 
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Consider this parable in Luke 8:5

A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he cried, He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus told us "The seed is the word of God." But you are telling us that it is "Initial salvation" which is not, you are not "initially saved" because you received the seed, like in the parable: some seeds were trodden down, others devoured by fowls, some seeds withered away and some were choked.

So, you are not saved until you bare fruit, because the word of God is planted all over the field, but only the good ground bare fruit. Only the good ground is saved.

Luke 8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

I would argue this refers to the keeping of the commands, and the doing of the works with patience. Of course, glory to God who does the watering, so all of the works and the seed and even the sowing is Gods grace.

Its funny you had to make two kinds of salvation to solve this hum? The "initial salvation" is not salvation, is receiving the word of God, then you are saved if you bare fruit.

Brother. The Parable of the Sower in Luke 8 is actually proof for my case on Initial Salvation.

How so? Well, lets read it more closely.

11 “Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.
12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
14 And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection.
15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.” (Luke 8:11-15).​

Verse 12: Obviously the first seed is not saved because the devil took this seed (the Word of God) out of their heart.

Verse 13: Those seeds that fell on the rock are those who receive the Word with joy and believe for a while. But if you were to skip back to verse 12. It says that the problem for the first seed that was not saved in the fact that they needed to believe in order to be saved. So verse 13 is essentially saying they are saved for a while because their belief is for a while. In time of temptation, they fall away from the faith. Meaning, the sin of being offended when being persecuted for Jesus has made them to fall away from the faith (Matthew 13:21). Like the prodigal son, he was dead while he was living in sin fornicating with prostitutes, but when he came home and sought forgiveness with his father, he was made alive AGAIN (See: Luke 15:11-32). Verse 13 also says that this seed fell away due to temptation. So you cannot fall away from something that you never had. What is this seed falling away from? If they never had salvation what exactly are they falling away from? Verse 13 received the word with joy. Why would they be joyful if they are not saved?

Verse 14: Those who fell among thorns are they who let the riches, and pleasures of this life choke the word (the message they believed), and they brought no fruit to perfection. Meaning, the seed created a plant that was growing life for it to be choked by the thorns. The growing plant shows that the plant had eternal life at one point in time. But it was choked. The plant that once had life was killed. But in order for it to be killed it would have to first have initial life to begin with. It was not a zombie plant growing. It was a living and breathing plant. Remember we were dead in trespasses and sins. Our old life is compared to be dead.
 
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@DaDaBrothers

Believers need to be concerned with two aspects of salvation mentioned in the Bible.

#1. God's Grace Through Faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior
(Initial Salvation, and or Foundational Salvation).
(The 1st synergistic work of GOD done in a believer).
Being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus as ones Savior is the entrance gate to salvation, and it is the foundation of our salvation (by faith) upon which we stand. Being saved by God's grace is believing the gospel (Which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes it - Romans 1:16). According to 1 Corinthians 15:1-4: The gospel is you believing that Jesus Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He had risen again three days later for your salvation (Note: Do not let anyone sell you on another gospel besides this one). Depending on a person’s access or exposure to the Word: Being saved by God's grace will also generally include receiving Jesus as your Savior (John 1:12), and calling upon the name of the Lord (i.e. confessing with your mouth the words: “Lord Jesus” or similar equivalent - Romans 10:9) as a part of seeking forgiveness of your sins with Him by way of prayer (Romans 10:13) (Luke 15:18-21) (Luke 18:9-14). This process of salvation is without the deeds of the Law or works because it is based upon God’s mercy and grace and His redemptive work. As a result: One is born again spiritually (Note: Born again by the Spirit, and born again by water (i.e. the Scriptures - Romans 10:17, 1 Peter 1:23)). A person is foundationally or ultimately saved by God’s grace because if they happen to sin on rare occasion in their Christian walk, they do not do a good work to absolve that sin, but they confess of their sins to Jesus in order to be forgiven of that sin (1 John 1:9) (1 John 2:1) (Hebrews 4:16) (For verses on being saved by God's grace, see: Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 4:1-6, Titus 3:4-7, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 18:9-14, Romans 5:1-2).

#2. Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life
(The Next Step or Phase in the Salvation Process).
(The 2nd synergistic work of God done in a believer).
Sanctification of the Spirit to Live a Holy Life is the next step or phase in Salvation for a believer who lives out their faith; This is the work of God moving in a believer's life so as to help them to live holy, and to do good works and to put away the lusts of the flesh. These good works are the works of God done through the believer, and so all boasting or praise is given to the Lord. Therefore, there is no boasting in one's own work because they are ultimately the works of God done through the believer. A believer today who obeys the Lord looks to the commands of Jesus and His followers within the New Testament primarily. For believers today are not under the 613 Laws of Moses as a whole package deal (even though certain laws have carried over into the New Testament). Basically all ceremonial laws and judicial laws in the Old Testament no longer apply. For example: Believers do not have to keep the Saturday Sabbath, circumcision, dietary laws, animal sacrifices, holy days, etc.; However, believers must keep God's Moral Laws like: Do not murder, do not steal, do not covet, do not lie, do commit adultery, etc.; Two of the greatest commands that we should focus on daily is to love God and love our neighbor which is more fully described in Mark 12:29-31. We need to worship or adore the Lord our God, preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, love our enemies, and live holy lives, etc. (For Sanctification verses, see: James 2:24, James 2:17-18, Titus 1:16, Hebrews 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Hebrews 12:14, Romans 8:1 (KJV), 1 Corinthians 16:22, Romans 8:13, etc.).
 
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Brightfame52

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Okay, you don't think I understand Paul. If you care to discuss this in detail, you're going to have to provide details. If there is a particular matter where you think I'm messing up, I'm prepared to face it, right or wrong.
I have stated already my thoughts and you have obviously disagreed !
 
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Brightfame52

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One act of righteousness (the cross) brought justification which brings life. (Romans 5:18)

And they are legally made righteous through faith apart from works (Romans 4:5).

Which it is in justification (Romans 5:18)
Rom 5:18 says nothing about Faith. It was solely by the righteousness of one the all obtained Justification of life. Had nothing to with their Faith. Same thing in Rom 5:19, it was solely by the obedience of ONE the many shall be made righteous. Has nothing to do with their faith !
 
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So verse 13 is essentially saying they are saved for a while because their belief is for a while.

(When Jesus says "believe and be saved" He is refering to true living faith, with works, who bares fruit. We know this because of James.)

You failed to acknoledge that is the fruit that saves you, only those who bare fruit were saved. Only the good ground was. And because of this, you are saying this rock was "saved for a while" without fruit, without works. We know this rock cannot be saved by dead faith.

So they were not "saved for a while", they had to truly believe first, so they can bare fruit and be saved. They falling away shows they lack true faith, and therefore fail in works.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The Text does not even acknoledge they had anything, they seem to have.
They seemth to have, but nope. They had no faith, no fruit. And what they seemeth to have will be taken away.

I only ask of you dont use the word salvation, from your "Initial Salvation" thing, because you are deceiving people, they are not saved, not without works, not without fruit. So dont tell them they are. Not even "for a while"..

Word of God plus true Faith bares fruit. The Fruit saves you, not the seed.
 
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(When Jesus says "believe and be saved" He is refering to true living faith, with works, who bares fruit. We know this because of James.)

You failed to acknoledge that is the fruit that saves you, only those who bare fruit were saved. Only the good ground was. And because of this, you are saying this rock was "saved for a while" without fruit, without works. We know this rock cannot be saved by dead faith.

So they were not "saved for a while", they had to truly believe first, so they can bare fruit and be saved. They falling away shows they lack true faith, and therefore fail in works.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The Text does not even acknoledge they had anything, they seem to have.
They seemth to have, but nope. They had no faith, no fruit. And what they seemeth to have will be taken away.

I only ask of you dont use the word salvation, from your "Initial Salvation" thing, because you are deceiving people, they are not saved, not without works, not without fruit. So dont tell them they are. Not even "for a while"..

Word of God plus true Faith bares fruit. The Fruit saves you, not the seed.

I believe fruit also saves, but it is AFTER we are saved by God’s grace.
It is not the fruit bearing that saves first because that would be what Paul was condemning in Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:3-5.

So then you were not saved until you did good works?
At which works did you do that brought you salvation?
If you fail to do a work on some day, are you condemned?
That does not sound like being saved by God’s grace and mercy like a gift.
So then how was the thief on the cross saved?
Do you believe a person cannot be saved on their death bed when they only have seconds to live?
The verses I demonstrated clearly show a beginning point of salvation.
What do you make of Luke 18:9-14? How does that fit in your view of sin and salvation?
 
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(When Jesus says "believe and be saved" He is refering to true living faith, with works, who bares fruit. We know this because of James.)

You failed to acknoledge that is the fruit that saves you, only those who bare fruit were saved. Only the good ground was. And because of this, you are saying this rock was "saved for a while" without fruit, without works. We know this rock cannot be saved by dead faith.

So they were not "saved for a while", they had to truly believe first, so they can bare fruit and be saved. They falling away shows they lack true faith, and therefore fail in works.

Luke 8:18 Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have.

The Text does not even acknoledge they had anything, they seem to have.
They seemth to have, but nope. They had no faith, no fruit. And what they seemeth to have will be taken away.

I only ask of you dont use the word salvation, from your "Initial Salvation" thing, because you are deceiving people, they are not saved, not without works, not without fruit. So dont tell them they are. Not even "for a while"..

Word of God plus true Faith bares fruit. The Fruit saves you, not the seed.

Being saved by God’s grace is not in conflict with holy living.

Titus 2:11-12 says God’s grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world. But Titus 3:5 says, Not by works of righteousness of which we have done, but we are saved by His mercy and the renewing of the Holy Spirit.

So we need to be saved by God’s grace first. Without it, we are falling into the same error that the Jews did in that they sought righteousness solely by works and not by faith.

“Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;” (Romans 9:32).

There was no grace in the Jew’s religion. It was a system of “Works ALONE.”

How do you get God’s grace?

You call upon the name of the Lord (Romans 10:13), seeking forgiveness of your sins with the Lord Jesus by way of prayer. You believe the gospel in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 (Which is to believe that Christ died for your sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for your salvation). This gospel is what we received. The gospel is how we get saved. It’s what we stand upon. Without believing this gospel, we would not be saved. We ask Jesus to come into our life. For as many as received Him gave he the power to become sons of God, even to them that BELIEVE on His name (John 1:12). If you mess up, you do not do a good work to have that sin blotted out, you go to Jesus and confess of that sin so as to be forgiven of that sin. That’s God’s grace. Hebrews 4:16 says let us boldly come to throne of grace and find MERCY in time of need. That’s not doing a good work but that’s seeking God’s forgiveness. We are first saved by God’s mercy and forgiveness but we have to seek His forgiveness. Just doing a good work does not change anyone. We need to broken before God over our sins, and honestly seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus so that our past slate of sin is wiped out. Yes, James is correct in that faith without works is dead, but James is not speaking in extremes whereby it nullifies being saved by God’s grace without works as Paul talks about. He is talking about a believer eventually bringing forth fruit. One can be initially saved by God’s grace without the deeds of the Law, and then…. One must bring forth works (thereby showing their conversion was real and showing that they want to continue with the Lord).
 
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Clare73

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One act of righteousness (the cross) brought justification which brings life. (Romans 5:18)

And they are legally made righteous through faith apart from works (Romans 4:5).

Which it is in justification (Romans 5:18)
Rom 5:18 says nothing about Faith. It was solely by the righteousness of one the all obtained Justification of life. Had nothing to with their Faith. Same thing in Rom 5:19, it was solely by the obedience of ONE the many shall be made righteous. Has nothing to do with their faith !
Romans 5:18-19 are not the only verses treating righteousness/justification.
Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28 do also, and we must consider all Scripture in understanding any Scripture.
 
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RandyPNW

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"permanent" gives a false sense of security, I reccomend you watch your step.. It is required of you to walk in the Light.

Why don't you let God worry about "my step?"

I do walk in the light, and God always gives me access to Him. If you feel that sometimes you don't have access to Him, perhaps you should consider yourself?

Anyways the reality is Scripture:
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

This is a most misunderstood passage. John is talking about how we, as newborn Christians, have a nature that cannot pursue sin. Obviously, we can act out of sorts with that nature, since John begins his letter by stating such.

What this is saying is that as saints we've chosen to adopt God's love as our way of life. Having this nature, we naturally pursue love. None of this has a thing to do with sinless perfection, since everybody has a Sin Nature, saint or sinner.

But you go on to say: "None of this means that we ourselves are perfect."
The Holy Spirit cannot sin, If you have His seed you cannot sin, because you are "born of God", so there is no imperfection whatsoever at all, if this is not perfection, then nothing is.

Yes, God's Spirit cannot sin, and our newborn nature cannot pursue sin. But we don't always live in that new nature. As such, we can and do sin, regularly. We just don't live a life of sin.

This is the verse all the sinners use to say they have to sin perpetually, until death..
But John is not saying we are all sinners who are doomed to be forever enslaved to sin forever, and will never cease from sin, no. Look at context and remember we have the Lord to put an end to this mess.

To be a "sinner" can be described in two different ways, as one living a life of sin, or as one who has a Sin Nature. Since we all have a Sin Nature, we are all "sinners" in that sense. But we are not all "sinners" in the sense we all live a life of sin.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

First John explains how we can be cleanseth from all sin, then, since we are talking about sins to cleanse, we cannot say that we have no sin (to cleanse), right?

We do have sin, and it can be cleansed.. All of it.. If you walk in the light, you become Holy, and without sin. Also if it were impossible to have no sin, it would be impossible to cleanse you from ALL sin, so you decide, Holy or sinner. Light or darkness.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that we become sinless when we walk in the light.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

And I plead of you: Don't assume everyone here is a sinner, just because you are, neither assume we "live in denial about your own inherent imperfections and sins", because you are calling everyone a devil..

Where did I call anyone a "devil?" We all have a Sin Nature, and we all show imperfections in our attitude. This doesn't mean we live a life of sin--only that we have a Sin Nature that constantly disturbs us, because the nature God has put within us longs to love.

1 John 3:8: He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

As for "inherent imperfections" We are made at the image of God (perfect).
This is what Scripture says:
Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

You're identifying me with the ungodly people Paul was pointing to in the 1st chapter of Romans?

They weren't born sinners, they became vain, and their foolish hearth was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Randy: "To live a Christian lifestyle is to be holy. Even our Christian lifestyle is never perfect."

Randy beware.. Holy is perfect, if your "lifestyle" is not perfect (yet) you are not Holy.
Because the Holy Spirit is perfect and cannot sin, so you cannot say you are holy and imperfect. No serving to masters, Perfect or imperfect. Holy or sinner.

This isn't biblical. We can be both holy and flawed--that's what the Apostle John says. Those who deny their own sin are liars, according to John.

James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

What you're doing is identifying those who admit they have a Sin Nature with those who live a life of sin. Not the same thing. All Christians with proper doctrine admit they are regularly beset by the Sin Nature that remains within their flesh. You're creating your own doctrine.

What you have a problem with is the idea that you can have both a holy nature and an unholy nature within you at the same time. And you think that if there is an unholy nature within you, then you can't be a saint--you must be a devil.

Well, that isn't true. Both God's Spirit and a Sin Nature is within every Christian. By God's Spirit and our Reborn Nature we naturally want only to do the right thing. But the Sin Nature infects us, and contaminates our heart and mind.

And so sin always tempts us and causes us to sin--hopefully in only small ways. We should avoid, at all costs, the big sins. Those are the ones that really hurt everybody.
 
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