20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Guojing said:

Well, I cannot control the thoughts you want to form in your head, so I will leave that up to you. =)

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Note that our agreement of the interpretation includes the recognition that God covenants with Gentiles as well as Jews.

You'd been saying previously that He does not covenant with Gentiles.

keras said:

No we are not, because Jesus came to save the Lost tribes of Israel. Matthew 15:24 He was successful and we Christians, including you; are the result.
WE are the Israelites of God, His people from every tribe, race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9 & 7:9

Accusers of not 'rightly dividing' the Prophesies, should be very careful that their accusation doesn't apply to themselves. Because if it does their Judgment on the Last Day, will be more severe. James 3:1

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I understand that you regard "Israel" as a term describing all who believe in Christ. As I said, that is one of the hallmark of covenant theology.

I don't share that doctrine, so we can agree to disagree.

sovereigngrace said:

It doesn't really matter. It is written to NT Christians.

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What about Hebrews 1:1?

Do you regard that as any significance in telling you, who the book was written to?

jgr said:

Note that our agreement of the interpretation includes the recognition that God covenants with Gentiles as well as Jews.

You'd been saying previously that He does not covenant with Gentiles.

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If you read and understood my 2 premises in that post, that you deleted, in your reply, you will understand where our interpretation differs.

sovereigngrace said:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

What is your point? He is talking about the OT period. Jesus ushered in the NT era (the last days) though His earthly ministry.

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I already made that point to you but you ignored it when you reply

20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

sovereigngrace said:

Why do you have to talk cryptically? The Book of Hebrews is written to NT Christians.

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Since you believe Israel is a term describing all Christians, as in covenant theology, I can understand why you would believe that.

Guojing said:

If you read and understood my 2 premises in that post, that you deleted, in your reply, you will understand where our interpretation differs.

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As you said, we reached the same conclusion, so our interpretations do not differ.

jgr said:

As you said, we reached the same conclusion, so our interpretations do not differ.

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if you insist, I cannot control how you choose to think

Guojing said:

if there is one characteristic I notice of covenant theologians, many of them like to read into the bible to form many of their doctrines such as this, that those guys are saved even when there is no scripture that states that

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I'm not reading anything into it. I'm using common sense here. This is not some deep thing that requires weeks or months of prayer for discernment. Since when does repentance not result in forgiveness? It always has.

Explain to me why God wanted them to repent if it didn't do them any good? Do you think it was pointless for God to send Jonah to preach to them? Do you think He should have just went ahead and destroyed them if they had no hope for salvation, anyway?

If you can't answer these questions then I have no reason to take you seriously. There clearly was a reason why God wanted them to repent. So, what was it if it wasn't so that their sins could be forgiven and so that they would be spiritually saved rather than condemned?

What’s more, I already gave you Nahum 1 that indicated they were judged by God years after the Jonah incident

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As I said in another post, Nineveh wasn't destroyed until about 150 years after they repented in Jonah's day, so that judgment upon Nineveh had NOTHING to do with the people who lived there 150 years prior to that.

Guojing said:

Again do you have scripture that states that those guys were saved?

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Matthew 12:41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jesus indicated here that the repentance of the people of Nineveh would result in them not being condemned on judgment day, unlike the unbelieving Pharisees that He was talking to at the time.

if you don’t, just admit that you are reading into the passage and stating your opinion

all of us have a right to our opinion

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When did I say that not everyone has a right to their opinion? Don't confuse the confidence I have in my opinions with me trying to say that I'm stating facts. I understand that we're all sharing opinions/interpretations here. You seem to have a problem with it when someone is highly confident in their opinions. Why? What is wrong with that?

Ever considered the possibility that present salvation was not available to anyone, until the mystery revealed by Paul after the fall of Israel (Romans 11:11)?

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No, I don't give serious consideration to things that I consider to be nonsense. Salvation came to all OT saints when Jesus died and rose again and it came to all who believe in Him from then on. Why would I think salvation was not available until some time after He died and rose again?

Guojing said:

If you are not going to rightly divide the word of truth, you will not be able to understand the grid I used to understand scripture and form doctrine.

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I have no plans to not rightly divide the word of truth, but thanks for your concern.

Whenever you used Paul, quoting from Roman to Philemon, you are explaining truth in the but now time period.

But in time past, there are many ways in which a Jew can be cut off from Israel (Genesis 17:14, Leviticus 23:27-29)

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In Romans 9:30-32 Paul was talking about the people of Israel in time past up until his time trying to obtain salvation by keeping the law (which is impossible - James 2:10) and they didn't obtain it because it comes by faith instead.

for example during the time of Jesus first coming on earth, under the gospel of the kingdom, if a Jew refuse to believe Jesus is the messiah and refused water baptism, he will be cut off from Israel (Luke 7:29-30, Mark 16:16, acts 2:38, Acts 3:22-23)

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Are you suggesting that you think water baptism was required for salvation at that time? If so, you are sadly mistaken. That would mean the thief on the cross wasn't saved.

so no, being a physical Jew was not sufficient in time past

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Sufficient for what? Salvation? Being a physical Jew has never been sufficient in that sense and never will be because salvation has nothing to do with one's nationality since God is not a respecter of persons.

Guojing said:

Hebrews 8:8-12 is already given to you.

If that is not enough, there is Romans 11:25-27.

But I forgot, you think your own opinions of what scripture meant are facts.

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Let's take a closer look at Romans 11:25-27 to see if it says what you think it says.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The first key to understanding this passage is to understand that Paul was not giving a new prophecy in verses 26 and 27 as if he was saying that the Deliverer would come at some point in the future to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Instead, he was referencing this prophecy:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Did the Redeemer/Deliverer not already come long ago to turn away ungodliness from Jacob and to take away their sins? Of course He did!

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

There it is. It couldn't be more clear. Peter said that Jesus was already sent by God to turn "away every one of" them in Israel "from his iniquities". There is no reason to wait for something that has already been done. The Redeemer/Deliverer already came long ago to take away not only the sins of the people of Israel but of the world.

So, what Paul was talking about in Romans 11:26-27 is the way in which all Israel would be saved which is by way of the Redeemer/Deliverer coming to turn people from their wickedness.

Now, which Israel was Paul referring to here? It can't be the nation of Israel. It's not even remotely reasonable to think all people in the nation of Israel would be saved at some point in the future. It would take a miracle of God for that to happen, but the problem with thinking that God would do that is the fact that He is not a respecter of persons. He would not ensure the salvation of all people in one nation without also doing it for the other nations.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

You're thinking of the wrong Israel there. There is an Israel that Paul had mentioned previously in Romans of which all are saved. We can see that here:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Israel of which all are saved is the Israel made up of the spiritual seed of Isaac which are the children of God and children of the promise. Paul described who those people are here:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So, going back to Romans 11:25-27, the Israel of which all are saved are those who have faith in Christ Jesus and are Abraham's spiritual seed. The Deliverer/Redeemer came long ago to take away people's sins by way of His death on the cross. No one needs to wait for a future time for the Deliverer/Redeemer to come to take away their sins because He already came to do that long ago! What more can He do in the future to take away sins that He hasn't already done?

Are the Jews God's chosen people?

Due to poor and erroneous Church teachings, many people are confused about who exactly are God's people.

Are the Jews still God's people today? Are there any prophecies or commands of God as to how Christians are to deal with them? Are the things happening in Palestine any indication of the coming of Jesus? What about the inheritance of Israel and who will receive it?

The Bible is clear on the subject and it is important to us. We must remember that the term "Jew" as used in the gospels is mostly used to denote the religious leaders of Jesus time. Other terms were used when speaking of the people, such as: the common people heard him gladly. Mark 12:37 We should also keep in mind that the early church was almost entirely Jewish. For over three years the gospel went throughout Jerusalem and Judea before it went to the Gentiles. The three thousand added to the church on the day of Pentecost were Jewish people.

Romans 11:2-22.. Paul says that Israel is not totally cast away and points to himself as evidence. He became a follower of Christ and he worked for the salvation of the Jews all through his ministry, even though he was the apostle to the Gentiles. In verse 7 he says "Israel has not obtained what it seeks." Then in verses 19-22 where he is talking about Christians being grafted into their olive tree, he says: Branches were broken off that you might be grafted in. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

The words; did not spare is evidence that as a nation he considered the Jews no longer God's people. As individuals they can still have salvation; as individuals they are no different from anyone else. As a nation, too, they are no different, just the normal, worldly state, trying to attain prosperity for their people.

Now consider Galatians 3:29. And if you are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. All God's promises in scripture are for faithful Christians, born again believers.

As individuals, Jews have the same chance for salvation as any Gentile.


The Jewish nation's general rejection of Jesus caused them, to lose out on the final inheritance. That inheritance has passed on to all who accept their Messiah (Jesus) as their personal Savior and Redeemer. But as Christians we have been grafted into their olive tree, and we can be cut off as surely as their nation was. Romans 11:21-22.

Had the Jews, as a nation, accepted their Messiah, they would have been the people, [church] through whom God would work to bring the Gospel to all the world. It was their gospel, but they refused to accept it. Thus was born the Christian church and we have the responsibility to spread the Gospel. This task has been undertaken with reasonable success, but much remains to be done. It will be completed in the end times by the 144,000. Isaiah 66:19

Through Jesus we can obtain title to a kingdom that will never pass away:
Colossians 1:12 …thru Jesus, we are fit to share in the Kingdom of Light.

Daniel 7:27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven, shall be given to the holy people of the most High. Their kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey them..

What a glorious promise we have in Jesus our Lord.


Matthew 1:1-17 goes to great lengths to show that Jesus was of the line of David, moving from Abraham to Joseph the earthly Father of Jesus. Luke 3:23-38 does the same thing backwards. He starts with Jesus and works back in time all the way back to Adam. Both genealogies agree and pass through David and Solomon. The throne was promised to David and his descendants, forever by God. And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD forever. I Kings 2:45.

Then in 1 Chronicles 28:9, Solomon was warned the promise was conditional. Zedekiah was the last king of Judah. After the Babylonian captivity, the Jews never had a king, only governors, as they were under the rule of other nations. The Edomite Herod kings of Jesus' time were not of the line of David and were appointed by the Roman Caesar. Judah lost their kingdom and have not yet regained it. Matthew 21:43

Daniel 7:27 makes it clear that the kingdom will be given to the people of the saints of the Most High.
The kingdom that God sets up is forever. Daniel 2:44

Paul, speaking of the Israelites of Moses day said: And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1 Corinthians 10:4.

Jesus said: Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they testify of me. John 5:39.

When one stops to realize that the Old Testament Scriptures were the only Scriptures available when Jesus said that, we can see that Jesus is all through the Old Testament. Proverbs 8:22-31

Paul, raised a Pharisee, said: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all. Colossians 3:11.

In Christ, Old and New Testaments are bound together and all the promises are now to be fulfilled for the Christian Israelites of God.

Spiritual Jew said:

Let's take a closer look at Romans 11:25-27 to see if it says what you think it says.

Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The first key to understanding this passage is to understand that Paul was not giving a new prophecy in verses 26 and 27 as if he was saying that the Deliverer would come at some point in the future to turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Instead, he was referencing this prophecy:

Isaiah 59:20 And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. 21 As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.

Did the Redeemer/Deliverer not already come long ago to turn away ungodliness from Jacob and to take away their sins? Of course He did!

Acts 3:25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.

There it is. It couldn't be more clear. Peter said that Jesus was already sent by God to turn "away every one of" them in Israel "from his iniquities". There is no reason to wait for something that has already been done. The Redeemer/Deliverer already came long ago to take away not only the sins of the people of Israel but of the world.

So, what Paul was talking about in Romans 11:26-27 is the way in which all Israel would be saved which is by way of the Redeemer/Deliverer coming to turn people from their wickedness.

Now, which Israel was Paul referring to here? It can't be the nation of Israel. It's not even remotely reasonable to think all people in the nation of Israel would be saved at some point in the future. It would take a miracle of God for that to happen, but the problem with thinking that God would do that is the fact that He is not a respecter of persons. He would not ensure the salvation of all people in one nation without also doing it for the other nations.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

You're thinking of the wrong Israel there. There is an Israel that Paul had mentioned previously in Romans of which all are saved. We can see that here:

Romans 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

The Israel of which all are saved is the Israel made up of the spiritual seed of Isaac which are the children of God and children of the promise. Paul described who those people are here:

Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

So, going back to Romans 11:25-27, the Israel of which all are saved are those who have faith in Christ Jesus and are Abraham's spiritual seed. The Deliverer/Redeemer came long ago to take away people's sins by way of His death on the cross. No one needs to wait for a future time for the Deliverer/Redeemer to come to take away their sins because He already came to do that long ago! What more can He do in the future to take away sins that He hasn't already done?

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I think many others, including myself, have tried to explain to you, that the term "Israel" used by Paul, could not have referred to gentile believers.

But since you call yourself a "spiritual Jew" in bible discussion forums, you are obviously not going to accept those alternative interpretations.

But you should be happy that you have supporters who agree with you and will like your posts. As I already said to Keras, covenant theology is probably the most popular grid in which protestants interpret scripture.