Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

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Jipsah

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Another illusionary, I see, who doesn't know history & makes Scripture believe what he wants.
So the fact that all those things at a matter of history doesn't matter, as far as you're concerned they didn't happen.

That tells me all I need to know about your eschatology, such as it is.
 
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Jipsah

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Except GOD didn't say "The Sough shall rise again".
He didn't say the Temple would be rebuilt after it was desecrated and destroyed, either. And it won't. That's Simple fantasy, utterly unsupported by Scripture.

So lessee, your favorite eschaological doctrine requires that you deny that historical events ever occured, and believe that God has said stuff that exist nowhere in Scripture,

I reckon I'll pass on that, thanks all the same.

But be sure and let me know when that "temple" gets built. Sounds like that's another one of those deals that only the Inner Circle will know about. :tonguewink:
 
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Douggg

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GOG is said to be ISRAEL in the LXX. (Numbers 24:5-9) It was going to be a CIVIL WAR taking place in Israel, when "every man's hand shall be against his brother" in Ezekiel 38:21.
Ezekiel 38:21 is not referring to Israel, but against the nations attacking Israel.

Gog is not mentioned in Numbers 24:5-9.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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You're right, of course. The Temple was never desecrated, and is standing right where it was when our Lord's disciples asked Him about it to tis very day. Sacrifice and oblation continue there unabated. None of the disciples ever saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, and there was never any reason to flee the city. No nation has ever risen against another nation, there have been no wars nor rumors thereof, the Church has never faced persecution, there was never any requirement for people to make sacrifice to the emperor in order to legally buy or sell, ad infinitum.

You KNOW none of those thing has happened, because preterists believe that some or all of them really have, and you KNOW that preterism both partial and full, are false.

Just out of curiousity, are you into the flat earth thing as well?

Revelation strictly concerns the mediation of Christ upon the Church, which is under the New Covenant, not the Old. This is clearly illustrated in chapter 1. As such, the “Jerusalem” in the book pertains to that of the New Covenant, the one depicted in Galatians 4:26 and Hebrew 12:22. There is no evidence in the NT, let alone the OT, that supports the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 warrants any interpretation that God is finished with the phenomenon of “Jerusalem” and its significance. There is merely a supplanting of the old with the new, which is the subject of the Revelation in 3:10-12 and 21:1-2. (Not unlike the destruction of Solomon’s temple being ultimately supplanted with Herod’s.) Chapter 3 affirms that the trials and tribulations upon God’s people did not end with the events of AD 70 but commenced with the NT house of God (1 Peter 4:17-18). It is the Church that represents Jerusalem now. The trial depicted in Revelation 3:10-12 is “upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth,” not merely ancient Judah. The true Church is kept from the universal trail by keeping what is written in the Revelation and the commandments of God (Revelation 12:17). Again, Revelation maintains an expansion of God’s judgments upon all the world, not just ancient Jerusalem. This is why we have not entered the consummate kingdom of Christ, the stone kingdom of Daniel 2. Only when probation ends for the Church will New Jerusalem be ready for the next step to come down from heaven as Christ smites the nations, which is not until the last trump.

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1 Corinthians 15:50-52)​

Corinthians, above, parallels the seventh trumpet in Revelation 11, when the dead in Christ are raised and receive their reward. The dead in Christ were not raised and caught up with the living (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) in AD 70.

The destruction of the temple in AD 70 was a judgment under the Old Covenant and we must look to the events prophesied by those who ministered under the Old Covenant, like, take for instance, Zechariah.

There is a voice of the howling of the shepherds; for their glory is spoiled: a voice of the roaring of young lions; for the pride of Jordan is spoiled. Thus saith the LORD my God; Feed the flock of the slaughter; Whose possessors slay them, and hold themselves not guilty: and they that sell them say, Blessed be the LORD; for I am rich: and their own shepherds pity them not. For I will no more pity the inhabitants of the land, saith the LORD: but, lo, I will deliver the men every one into his neighbour's hand, and into the hand of his king: and they shall smite the land, and out of their hand I will not deliver them. I will feed the flock of slaughter, even you, O poor of the flock. And I took unto me two staves; the one I called Beauty, and the other I called Bands; and I fed the flock. Three shepherds also I cut off in one month; and my soul lothed them, and their soul also abhorred me. (Zechariah 11:3-8)​

There are other OT prophets that prophesied of the destruction of ancient Jerusalem, but the Revelation is Christ’s mediation upon the seven church epochs. The seven churches represent the seven months or epochs between the spring and autumnal festivals, which by any wise account represent this age and the mediation by Christ upon his New Testament Church.
 
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robycop3

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@parousia70 as well.

The Antichrist is when the person is the King of Israel (Anti - instead of and against Jesus the rightful King of Israel).

When the person becomes the beast, he will no longer be the King of Israel, no longer the Antichrist, but instead dictator of the EU, the end time Roman Empire.

Here is the path of the person to becoming the beast.


View attachment 305105
May be so, but the beast will be of Roman descent, as seen in Daniel 9. Of course, there people of Roman descent just about everywhere now, so he could come from almost anywhere.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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Yes, there WILL. The abomination of desolation hasn't yet occurred, & there must be a temple for it to happen in.

There is only one thing that is just as phony as preterism and that's futurism!
 
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robycop3

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So the fact that all those things at a matter of history doesn't matter, as far as you're concerned they didn't happen.

That tells me all I need to know about your eschatology, such as it is.
When Titus' army took Jerusalem, he did NOT order the temple destroyed. His soldiers did it on their own, as there were rumors the Jews had stashed gold between its stones. Thus, they pulled it apart, stone by stone, (and found no gold) thus fulfilling Jesus prophecy that not one stone would be left upon another. The abomination of desolation did NOT occur then; no Roman set up a statue in the temple & declared himself to be God. Such an event wouldve been widely known & recorded.
 
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robycop3

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He didn't say the Temple would be rebuilt after it was desecrated and destroyed, either. And it won't. That's Simple fantasy, utterly unsupported by Scripture.

So lessee, your favorite eschaological doctrine requires that you deny that historical events ever occured, and believe that God has said stuff that exist nowhere in Scripture,

I reckon I'll pass on that, thanks all the same.

But be sure and let me know when that "temple" gets built. Sounds like that's another one of those deals that only the Inner Circle will know about. :tonguewink:
I believe the whole world will know when it's rebuilt.

And as for Nero, another reason why he wasn't the 'beast'-(Your knowledge of history seems to be lacking.) He had no miracle-working false prophet sidekick, and he was NOT cast alive into hell as the true beast will be. He DIED when he has his scribe Epaphroditus stab him. Gen. Galba, the man who overthrew him, had sent men to arrest him, & these men tried in vain to save his life, so there's no doubt Nero died.

The eschatological events simply haven't occurred yet. These are not minor happenings; had they already occurred, they'd still be well-known today. And you could tell us who the TRUE beast was, the name of the false prophet, describe the mark of the beast, etc.
 
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Jerryhuerta

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The prophesied events MUST occur, or God's word isn't true.

Revelation strictly concerns the mediation of Christ upon the Church, which is under the New Covenant, not the Old. This is clearly illustrated in chapter 1. As such, the “Jerusalem” in the book pertains to that of the New Covenant, the one depicted in Galatians 4:26 and Hebrew 12:22. There is no evidence in the NT, let alone the OT, that supports the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 warrants any interpretation that God is finished with the phenomenon of “Jerusalem” and its significance. There is merely a supplanting of the old with the new, which is the subject of the Revelation in 3:10-12 and 21:1-2. (Not unlike the destruction of Solomon’s temple being ultimately supplanted with Herod’s.) Chapter 3 affirms that the trials and tribulations upon God’s people did not end with the events of AD 70 but commenced with the NT house of God (1 Peter 4:17-18). It is the Church that represents Jerusalem now. The trial depicted in Revelation 3:10-12 is “upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth,” not merely ancient Judah. The true Church is kept from the universal trail by keeping what is written in the Revelation and the commandments of God (Revelation 12:17).

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)​
 
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Ezekiel 38:21 is not referring to Israel, but against the nations attacking Israel.

Gog is not mentioned in Numbers 24:5-9.

Here is Numbers 24:5-9 in the LXX, where Gog is identified as being Israel:

"How goodly are thy habitations, Jacob, and thy tents, ISRAEL! as shady groves, and as gardens by a river, and as tents which God pitched, and as cedars by the waters. There shall come a man out of his seed, and he shall rule over many nations; and the kingdom of GOG shall be exalted, and his kingdom shall be increased. God led HIM" (God led GOG, that is) "out of Egypt; he has as it were the glory of a unicorn: he shall consume the nations of his enemies, and he shall drain their marrow, and with his darts he shall shoot through the enemy. He lay down, he rested as a lion, and as a young lion: who shall stir him up? they that bless thee are blessed, and they that curse thee are cursed."

The kingdom of Gog was to rule over many nations. Israel under Joshua's leadership truly did conquer many nations within Canaan's borders as they were settling in the land after the Exodus. God lists these nations for us in Deuteronomy 7:1 (Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, Jebusites).

Gog was going to be coming "from thy place out of the north parts" (Ex. 38:15 and Ez. 39:2). This was the "north quarter", or the North quadrant of the land of ISRAEL. In other words, Gog would come from the land of "GALILEE of the GENTILES" (ethnon - the nations - Matthew 4:15-16) in the north corner of Israel. We have texts that describe the "four corners of the land" of Israel, such as Ezekiel 7:2-3. "Thus saith the Lord God unto the land of ISRAEL; An end, the end is come upon the four corners of the land. Now is the end come upon thee..."

Galilee in the north of Israel was the hotbed that bred Zealot leaders back in Christ's day (such as "Judas the Galilean" in Acts 5:37). These Zealot leaders originating from "Galilee of the nations" came with their armies in full force against Jerusalem, beginning in AD 66 until the last one in AD 69, who was Simon bar Gioras with his multitudinous army - soldiers culled from the surrounding nations. All these Zealot leaders ended up fighting with one another to gain control of Jerusalem ("every man's hand shall be against his brother" - Ez. 38:21). These competing Zealots coming from "Galilee of the Gentiles" were the ones "treading down the city and Temple" for those 42 months until Rome finally arrived in AD 70 to finish off Jerusalem.
 
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Douggg

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May be so, but the beast will be of Roman descent, as seen in Daniel 9. Of course, there people of Roman descent just about everywhere now, so he could come from almost anywhere.
The person who becomes the Antichrist, and then later the beast.

1. Must be a Jew, and intially his religion Judaism
2. Must be of Roman descent also, in particular the Julio-Claudian family somewhere in his history.

A Jew because he becomes the King of Israel (coming in his own name) for a while. He destroys his land and slays his people (Isaiah 14:18-20). Has no regard for the God of his fathers (Daniel 11:36).

A Roman because he comes from the people who destroyed the temple and city, Daniel 9:26. Emerges from the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire. Is the 7th and 8th king of the Roman Empire, i.e. of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

He comes into the middle east with a strong army, from one of the four break up territories of Alexander's Great empire, heading south and east. Daniel 8:9

I don't know who the person is by specific identity, at present. Nor what country, he will be from.

But when he becomes the leader of the EU, and meets the identifiers of him being a Jew,
different from the other ten kings, also yet to be identified, that is when all the preterists and others having various other end times scenarios will be validated as being in error.

It is just a matter of time, given the nearest of the Gog/Magog event shaping up.
 
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Douggg

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"How goodly are thy habitations, Jacob, and thy tents, ISRAEL! as shady groves, and as gardens by a river, and as tents which God pitched, and as cedars by the waters. There shall come a man out of his seed, and he shall rule over many nations; and the kingdom of GOG shall be exalted, and his kingdom shall be increased. God led HIM" (God led GOG, that is) "out of Egypt; he has as it were the glory of a unicorn: he shall consume the nations of his enemies, and he shall drain their marrow, and with his darts he shall shoot through the enemy. He lay down, he rested as a lion, and as a young lion: who shall stir him up? they that bless thee are blessed, and they that curse thee are cursed."
Do you have a link of that particular translation of the LXX that has Gog in the text?

Never mind, I just read it for myself.

I just checked the English translation of Numbers 24 at the Jews site at Chabad, of their online Tanach. And no Gog in it.

So there appears to be a flaw either in the LXX or the way it is being translated, or the way it was preserved.
 
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Douggg, Gog who was called the "chief prince" was the main Zealot leader Simon bar Gioras. His very name means "Simon son of the proselyte". Meaning this main Zealot leader had both Gentile background and a Jewish one by virtue of his father becoming a proselyte Jew. His army in Jerusalem truly did "fall on the mountains of Israel" and was decimated by the Romans in AD 70.

Gog's battle is long over. It took 7 months after AD 70 to bury all of Simon's dead soldiers to "cleanse the land" of Israel of human remains, and it took 7 years to finally burn as cooking fuel all the Roman war embankments of the siege wall and the siege towers, since every tree for 10 miles around Jerusalem was cut down to use in the war against the city.
 
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robycop3

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The person who becomes the Antichrist, and then later the beast.

1. Must be a Jew, and intially his religion Judaism
2. Must be of Roman descent also, in particular the Julio-Claudian family somewhere in his history.

A Jew because he becomes the King of Israel (coming in his own name) for a while. He destroys his land and slays his people (Isaiah 14:18-20). Has no regard for the God of his fathers (Daniel 11:36).

A Roman because he comes from the people who destroyed the temple and city, Daniel 9:26. Emerges from the fourth kingdom in Daniel 7, the Roman Empire. Is the 7th and 8th king of the Roman Empire, i.e. of the 7 kings of Revelation 17:10.

He comes into the middle east with a strong army, from one of the four break up territories of Alexander's Great empire, heading south and east. Daniel 8:9

I don't know who the person is by specific identity, at present. Nor what country, he will be from.

But when he becomes the leader of the EU, and meets the identifiers of him being a Jew,
different from the other ten kings, also yet to be identified, that is when all the preterists and others having various other end times scenarios will be validated as being in error.

It is just a matter of time, given the nearest of the Gog/Magog event shaping up.
He won't necessarily be a Jew; he could be from one of the other Israeli tribes. He will arise from an empire with 10 separate rulers, overthrowing 3 of them on his way to full power. He will have a miracle-working false prophet as his sidekick. And he will be personally indwelt by Satan.
 
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robycop3

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Douggg, Gog who was called the "chief prince" was the main Zealot leader Simon bar Gioras. His very name means "Simon son of the proselyte". Meaning this main Zealot leader had both Gentile background and a Jewish one by virtue of his father becoming a proselyte Jew. His army in Jerusalem truly did "fall on the mountains of Israel" and was decimated by the Romans in AD 70.

Gog's battle is long over. It took 7 months after AD 70 to bury all of Simon's dead soldiers to "cleanse the land" of Israel of human remains, and it took 7 years to finally burn as cooking fuel all the Roman war embankments of the siege wall and the siege towers, since every tree for 10 miles around Jerusalem was cut down to use in the war against the city.
No; Gog will be a ruler from the descendants of the people of Magog, which was in what's now Russia.
 
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Douggg

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He won't necessarily be a Jew; he could be from one of the other Israeli tribes. He will arise from an empire with 10 separate rulers, overthrowing 3 of them on his way to full power. He will have a miracle-working false prophet as his sidekick. And he will be personally indwelt by Satan.
Jew became a generic term back at the time of Mordecai. Not necessarily of the tribe of Judah. For the Jews to embrace the person as the promised messiah, King of Israel, they will have to think he is of the tribe of Judah, and descended from David.
 
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robycop3

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Revelation strictly concerns the mediation of Christ upon the Church, which is under the New Covenant, not the Old. This is clearly illustrated in chapter 1. As such, the “Jerusalem” in the book pertains to that of the New Covenant, the one depicted in Galatians 4:26 and Hebrew 12:22. There is no evidence in the NT, let alone the OT, that supports the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70 warrants any interpretation that God is finished with the phenomenon of “Jerusalem” and its significance. There is merely a supplanting of the old with the new, which is the subject of the Revelation in 3:10-12 and 21:1-2. (Not unlike the destruction of Solomon’s temple being ultimately supplanted with Herod’s.) Chapter 3 affirms that the trials and tribulations upon God’s people did not end with the events of AD 70 but commenced with the NT house of God (1 Peter 4:17-18). It is the Church that represents Jerusalem now. The trial depicted in Revelation 3:10-12 is “upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth,” not merely ancient Judah. The true Church is kept from the universal trail by keeping what is written in the Revelation and the commandments of God (Revelation 12:17).

But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. (Hebrews 12:22-24)​
No; the events are literal, as proven by those parts of the Olivet Discourse which have literally come to pass to the letter. When Jesus was addressing His disciples then, He was not speaking in parables.
 
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