the standard of righteousness

DaDaBrothers · Aug 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
Faith and its works are separate

If you seperate the works from the faith, you kill the faith, you make it dead faith.

By your own definition of "Dead = not living, not existing or operating."
Faith without works is dead (not existing/its nothing/no such thing).
So in order to even have living perfected faith to exist you must have works first working with faith, and is the works that give life to the faith.
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Yet you keep saying "faith apart from works justifies".
1st faith without works is dead/nothing/ it doesnt exist. Theres no such thing as "faith apart from works". You either have works or you have nothing/dead faith.
And 2nd since you killed the faith by separating it from the works you are now saying this "dead faith justifies", you are saying the devils are "justified".
So I hope you stop saying "faith apart from works", because if you remove the works you kill the faith.
Matthew 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You can only be justified with works, because with faith only is death.
You can only be justified by true faith, with works. The moment you say "apart from its works" you have killed the faith, and it no longer justifies you. You are not justified by dead faith.
So stop deceiving yourself and others with dead faith. And start serving God in deed and in truth.

Clare73 · Aug 29, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
If you seperate the works from the faith, you kill the faith, you make it dead faith.

By your own definition of "Dead = not living, not existing or operating."
Faith without works is dead (not existing/its nothing/no such thing).
So in order to even have living perfected faith to exist you must have works first working with faith, and is the works that give life to the faith.
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Yet you keep saying "faith apart from works justifies".
1st faith without works is dead/nothing/ it doesnt exist. Theres no such thing as "faith apart from works". You either have works or you have nothing/dead faith.
And 2nd since you killed the faith by separating it from the works you are now saying this "dead faith justifies", you are saying the devils are "justified".
So I hope you stop saying "faith apart from works", because if you remove the works you kill the faith.
Matthew 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You can only be justified with works, because with faith only is death.
You can only be justified by true faith, with works. The moment you say "apart from its works" you have killed the faith, and it no longer justifies you. You are not justified by dead faith.
So stop deceiving yourself and others with dead faith. And start serving God in deed and in truth.

Previously addressed.

See Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28; Ephesians 2:8-9.

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
Correct. . .Jesus both saved and justified us through faith, apart from its works.
We don't "accept" it, it is sovereignly applied through faith.

Sorry, if we don't accept Jesus as our Savior, we don't get saved. You seem to deny free will exists in Christianity? If so, it's no wonder we disagree.

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
Holy absolutely requires perfection, in Him there is no darkness at all, no spot nor blemish, and if you really follow the Holy God you will end up Holy too, because His law is perfect and Holy.

You need to read 1 John 1. The Apostle John absolutely calls a "liar" one who teaches sinless perfection in the Church. Perhaps he would be scolded on a forum for "flaming"--I don't know. But he said it, and it's our Bible!

Bible Highlighter · Aug 29, 2021

The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith. No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace. Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...

The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:

#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Many Christians seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked your average Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.

Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.

So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

TedT said:
Really? Be holy for the LORD your GOD is holy, right, 1 Peter 1:15-16?

And holiness, being in perfect accord with GOD's nature and purpose to which you are called is the full measure of righteousness.

Better read Heb 12:5-11 again, where we are told to expect painful discipline, scourged as with a whip, if we are lax in our diligence to being TRAINED in righteousness.

I'm not advocating for living unholy lives. But we obviously are not perfect yet--not until the resurrection!

Clare73 · Aug 29, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Sorry, if we don't accept Jesus as our Savior, we don't get saved. You seem to deny free will exists in Christianity? If so, it's no wonder we disagree.

The gospel is not "accept" Jesus. ..the gospel is believe in/trust on Jesus (John 3:18), and his atoning sacrifice (blood--Romans 3:25) for the remission of your sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," justified, righteous.

Clare73 · Aug 29, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
The Two Sides of the Coin of Faith:

The 1st Side of the Coin of Faith:

Faith starts off as a belief or trust in Jesus Christ as one's Savior (John 3:16). We are first saved by God's grace through faith without the deeds of the law or works ALONE (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are saved initially and foundationally by God's grace and mercy like the receiving of a gift. We believe that Christ died for our sins, He was buried, and He was risen three days later for our salvation (1 Corinthians 15:1-4). We call upon the name of the Lord seeking forgiveness with Him (Romans 10:13, Luke 18:9-14). We receive or invite Christ into our life (John 1:12, Revelation 3:20). If a believer stumbles into sin on rare occasion, they do not do a good work to redeem that sin; But they go to God's grace by confessing their sins to Jesus Christ in order to be forgiven of it (See: 1 John 1:9, 1 John 2:1, Hebrews 4:16). This is all a part of how we are saved by God's grace through faith.

No man can save themselves by Works Alone without God's grace.

Nor is any man saved by relying on his works of faith (Ephesians 2:8-9), only his faith saves.

Many people who believe in God, and yet they have not accepted Jesus as their Savior think that God will outweigh their good deeds over their bad deeds. Salvation does not work like that. For they do not realize that their bad deeds will condemn them. They need to have their past slate of sins wiped out. This is where God's grace through faith in Jesus comes in.

But faith does not end with being saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

The journey of faith continues with...
The 2nd Side of the Coin of Faith:
#1. Faith manifests itself with the “work of faith” mentioned by the apostle Paul in 1 Thessalonians 1:3, and 2 Thessalonians 1:11. Many Christians seem to separate works from faith in a way that goes beyond how James describes them. Yet, the apostle Paul mentions that there is a “work of faith.” The Bible talks about the “work of the Lord” (1 Corinthians 15:58) (1 Corinthians 16:10), and I imagine if I asked your average Christian if the “work” within the “work of the Lord” is separate from “the Lord,” they most likely would say they are not separated. But when it comes to the “work of faith,” they will say that works and faith are separate things (Which in my view is not being consistent or honest with oneself).

#2. The word “faithful” is also mentioned 54 times in the New Testament King James Bible. The dictionary defines faithful as:

Faithful:
(adjective):

1. true to one's word, promises, vows, etc.
2. steady in allegiance or affection; loyal; constant: faithful friends.
3. reliable, trusted, or believed.
4. strict or thorough in the performance of duty: a faithful worker.

Source:

Definition of faithful | Dictionary.com

This definition is supported by the context in many verses in the Bible. It does not take a detective to figure out that the word “faithful” derives from the word “faith.” They are related and connected to each other. A person is loyal (or faithful) to their master based on their faith in him in what he says. For example: 2 Thessalonians 3:3 says, “But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.” So the Lord is said to be faithful in this verse. How is the Lord faithful? Is it by a belief alone? No. The Lord is faithful to strengthening us (or in establishing us) to keep us from evil. The Lord does something when He is faithful. Revelation 2:10 says to a particular church, “be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.” Many Protestants have tried to come up with tricky ways to not apply this verse to their own life. I believe they do not accept what this verse plainly says because it contradicts their “Faith Alone” teaching that was handed down to them from Martin Luther (the founder of Protestantism).

#3. Romans 10:17. It says,

“So then faith cometh by hearing,
and hearing by the word of God.”
(Romans 10:17).

How do we get our faith? According to Romans 10:17, we get our faith by hearing the Word of God. I believe that the “Word of God” can refer to either Jesus, and or the Bible (depending on the context) (Note: See this thread here to see the connection in Scripture between the Living Word and the Bible). Anyways, in this particular instance in Romans 10:17: I believe the “Word of God” refers to the words of Jesus (which are found in the Holy Bible). We must receive the words of Jesus because if we do not, His words will judge us on the last day (See: John 12:48). This would also include the words of His apostles, as well. For Jesus says, “He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.” (Matthew 10:40). So faith is basically everything in my New Testament because it gives us an account of the words of Jesus and His followers. We get our faith by believing and obeying what Jesus and His apostles said. Faith is everything in your New Testament, and faith is not just a belief alone in Jesus.

#4. Hebrews 11.
Hebrews 11 gives us an account of what faith does. “By faith Noah, ... prepared an ark to the saving of his house;...” (Hebrews 11:7). “By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac:” (Hebrews 11:17). “By faith Moses, ... refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter; Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;” (Hebrews 11:24-25). So by faith, the great men of God obeyed God and or put forth holy actions (or the “work of faith”). So in Hebrews 11, the word “faith” is used to represent something a believer does. This faith also rejects sin in one's life, for Moses suffered with the affliction of God's people rather than enjoying the pleasures of sin for a season.

#5. Peter failed to continue to walk on the water (Which is a work of God).
What was the reason why Peter later failed to continue to walk on the water? Jesus said, “O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?” (Matthew 14:31). This again proves that the work of God that can operate in our life is tied to our faith. For in Ephesians 2:9 it refers to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (without God's grace) because it is the kind of work that a man would boast in himself by doing it. But Ephesians 2:10 talks about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer. These are the works that we are created unto Christ Jesus to do. They are the works of God done through us. For Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). For it is God who works in us to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). So any good we do, all praise, glory, thanks, and honor is given to our Lord Jesus Christ and or to the glorious Trinity (or Godhead).

#6. Paul also mentions that there is an “obedience to the faith" (or obedience of faith) at the beginning and end of the book of Romans (See: Romans 1:5, Romans 16:26). Romans 6 says,

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?” (Romans 6:16).

So we have to have obedience unto righteousness. For Romans 6 also says, “But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22). So our obedience unto righteousness is being servants of God and having fruit unto holiness with having the end of everlasting life. This is all a part of the obedience to the faith. There is no such thing as the disobedience of the faith. For Ephesians 5 says, “But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.” (Ephesians 5:3-6).

#7. John 3:36 (The Greek word “apeitheō” used in John 3:36 for the English words: “believeth not” (KJB) is translated as “obey not” or “disobedient” in other English bible verses. For example: 1 Peter 3:1, and 1 Peter 3:20 translates apeitheō as “obey not” or “disobedient” and it is used context to being disobedient in regards to one’s righteous conduct (Whereas John 3:36 is translated as believeth not” in the King James Bible). Some translations render the KJB’s John 3:36 “believeth not" as “obey not” in other Translations (NLT, ESV, BLB, NASB, ASV, EXB, GNT). In other words, sometimes the words “believeth not” is synonymous with “obey not” (depending on the context). In fact, you can check this Greek word for yourself and it's usage here at BlueLetterBible.

G544 - apeitheō - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

#8. Works makes a person’s faith perfect (James 2:22).

This connects in with 2 Timothy 3:16-17. Doctrine and instruction in righteousness is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect unto all good works. Anyways, the point here is that your faith is perfected by works. Thus, this shows us that there is a symbiotic relationship between faith and works that cannot be separated.

#9. 2 Corinthians 5:7 says: “We walk by faith.” So faith is not something whereby you do nothing but believe. We are to walk by faith. Walking is an action.

#10. Examine whether you be in the faith - 2 Corinthians 13:5. How do we do this? Well, this is by proving Christ is in you. How can we show that we know the Lord? By keeping His commandments (1 John 2:3). However, the person who says they know the Lord and they do not keep His commands is a liar and the truth is not in them (1 John 2:4). So keeping His commands is tied to knowing the Lord, and knowing the Lord is in us is a part of our examination of whether we are in the faith or not (2 Corinthians 13:5).

#11. Galatians 5:6 says, “faith which worketh by love.”
Paul says in context within Galatians:

“For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Galatians 5:13-14).

So faith works by love. It works in love by loving one another. Faith is not just a belief alone.

#12. Philippians 2:17 talks about “the service of your faith.” Service is a form of work. So our faith will have service or work attached. So there is no faith that is alone or remains as a belief alone. True faith will have it's service.

#13. 2 Thessalonians 3:2 says, “And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.” This is suggesting that faith is not a belief alone whereby we can live wickedly. For it says that we may be delivered from wicked men for (because) all men have not faith. So the opposite of wickedness is holiness. So this verse is implying indirectly that our good and moral conduct is tied to the faith.

#14. 1 Timothy 5:8 says, “But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.” An infidel is an unbeliever. If faith is exclusively a belief alone then how can a person deny the faith by their misconduct?

#15. 1 Timothy 6:12 says, “Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life,” We have to FIGHT the good fight of faith in order to lay hold on eternal life. So faith is something we have to fight for and it is not a belief alone.

#16. 2 Timothy 3:1-9 describes those who have a form of godliness but deny the power thereof. They are lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God. These types are said to be reprobate concerning the faith (See: 2 Timothy 3:8). So faith is not a belief alone in Jesus whereby one’s conduct is not in line with true godliness.

#17. James 2:1 says, “My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.” This means faith is not a belief alone in Jesus, but it also includes one’s actions in not neglecting to love the poor brethren while one shows favor to the rich brethren.

#18. Jude says:

“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Jude 1:3-4).

Verse 3 says that we are to contend for the faith and verse 4 says there are certain ungodly men who turn the grace of our God into lasciviousness. Meaning, they are teaching that a person can sin and still be saved by God’s grace. But we are told to contend for the faith.

#19. Revelation 13:10 says,

“Anyone who is destined for prison will be taken to prison.
Anyone destined to die by the sword will die by the sword.
This means that God’s holy people must endure
persecution patiently and remain faithful.”
(Revelation 13:10) (NLT).

“He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity:
he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.
Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.”
(Revelation 13:10 (KJB).

In other words, this is saying that believers can sometimes go to prison and or be killed as a part of the faith (or in being faithful, i.e. the faith).

#20. Faith without works is dead (James 2:17). Can a dead faith save anyone?

#21. We are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). The same word “justified" is used for both faith and works. Most Christians will not argue against how we are justified by faith in regards to salvation. But this same word “justified" is used in reference for works, too.

#22. James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18).
For James says,

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith,
and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works,
and I will shew thee my faith by my works.”
(James 2:18).

James appears to criticize the person who has faith without works by saying show me your faith without works, and I will show my faith by my works. This means faith and works are tied together because works is how one shows their faith.
So in conclusion:

Faith is like a coin that has two sides to it. The first side of the coin of faith is trusting or believing in God's grace and seeking forgiveness with the Lord Jesus and believing the gospel, and the second side (or other side) of the coin of faith is the “work of faith.” (that is a part of the Sanctification Process of the Holy Spirit that helps us to live a holy life).

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:" (Hebrews 12:14).

“And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Hebrews 5:9).

DaDaBrothers · Aug 29, 2021

RandyPNW said:
I'm not advocating for living unholy lives. But we obviously are not perfect yet--not until the resurrection!

"No man can serve two masters" so you are either Holy, or unholy. There is no fellowship between light and darkness. And God commanded you to be Holy.

Jesus said you must be "born again".
This is your resurrection, when you are "born of god" you are Holy and cannot sin.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Love Jesus and keep all His commandments, not one sin is acceptable unto the Lord.
1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

So if you walk in the Light, and dont sin. His blood will cleanse you from ALL sin. Making you perfect and Holy. This is the only Way to be perfect, Holy and without sin, we all have sinned but we all can stop if we want (we do have free will).
Now after youve been made clean, just keep walking in the Light, and dont fall back in the mud.

Clare73 · Aug 29, 2021

Clare73 said:
Previously addressed.

See Romans 4:5, 3:21, 28; Ephesians 2:8-9.

DaDaBrothers said:
Funny

Funny

DaDaBrothers · Aug 29, 2021

I agree "we are saved by God's grace through faith."

Clare73 said:
only his faith saves

Clare73 said:
Funny

James made it clear, No faith without works. So when you say faith saves you automatically imply works in there. Because faith without works is dead. It has been explained already.. You can only have saving faith with works. And its not "only".. Is Gods grace too.
Its Gods grace that saves in the end. God is pleased by faith. And we are called faithfull servants. Because of our faith, we serve Him (works).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 29, 2021

Many twist Ephesians 2:8-9 to suggest that all that is needed is a belief alone to be saved our entire lives. But Paul is talking about being saved by God’s grace in Initial Salvation and he is refuting the idea of “Works ALONE Salvationism.” Ephesians 2:8-9 does not negate James 2:17 and James 2:24. Believers need to live holy lives as a part of God’s plan of salvation after they are saved by God’s grace. Living holy is by God’s power and it is a part of our Sanctification. Sanctification is also for salvation. See 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Romans 8:13, Hebrews 5:9, and Hebrews 12:14.

Clare73 · Aug 29, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
I agree "we are saved by God's grace through faith."

James made it clear, No faith without works. So
when you say faith saves you automatically imply works in there.

Absolutely. . .but it is only the faith that saves, faith's works do not save.
It's not complicated.

Because faith without works is dead. It has been explained already.. You can only have saving faith with works. And its not "only".. Is Gods grace too.
Its Gods grace that saves in the end. God is pleased by faith. And we are called faithfull servants. Because of our faith, we serve Him (works).

Faith is more than "pleasing" to God.
Faith saves --> justifies --> imparts righteousness of Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 5:21;
1 Corinthians 1:30).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 29, 2021

Here is a short list of verses showing that fruitfulness also plays a part in our salvation (Note: This is after we are saved by God’s grace - of course):

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.” (James 2:24).
“Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” (James 2:17).
10 “For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” (Titus 1:10, and Titus 1:16).
“And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).
“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).
“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).
“Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee ? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee ? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:34-46).
“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).
“Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.” (Matthew 7:24-27).
“I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” (John 15:5-6).
“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.” (1 Peter 4:18-19).
“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:” (Hebrews 12:14).
“And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.” (Matthew 3:10).
“He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4).
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing,…” (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 29, 2021

Cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness (Matthew 25:30).

Jesus is the author of eternal life to all who obey Him (Hebrews 5:9).

Blessed are they that do his commandments, for they have right to the tree of life (Revelation 22:14-15).

Bible Highlighter · Aug 29, 2021

When Paul says we are not saved by works in Ephesians 2:8-9, he is referring to Initial Salvation and not continued salvation via Sanctification after we are saved by God’s grace. Paul is saying that our Initial and Foundational Salvation is God’s grace through faith in Christ and it is a gift. Gifts are received one time, right? So that means Paul is referring to Initial Salvation in Ephesians 2:8-9.

It’s also important to understand that Paul is referring to Man Directed Works ALONE Salvationism (Without God’s grace) in Ephesians 2:9. For the works in verse 9 are the kind of works that a man would boast in himself in doing. Thus, they are “Man Directed Works.” But in Ephesians 2:10, Paul is talking about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer after they are saved by God’s grace. This work is cooperative and not forced upon the believer. For how can two walk together unless they be agreed? (Amos 3:3). For we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling (Philippians 2:12). In verse 13, we learn that Paul continues to say that it is God who works in you to do of His good will and pleasure (Philippians 2:13). For Ephesians 2:10 refers to the fact that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works. These are the works in the Sanctification Process. There is no boasting of one’s work in this kind of work like in Ephesians 2:9 because it is the Lord who works through us when we surrender to Him by faith and trust in His grace. While works play a part in the Sanctification Process (which involves our salvation), we are not solely saved by works alone because if we mess up by stumbling into sin on rare occasion by some chance, we do not go out and do a good work to undo that sin, but we seek forgiveness with the Lord Jesus Christ by way of prayer. For if we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

So Paul is fighting against Works Alone Salvationism (without God’s grace).

James is fighting against the other opposite wrong extreme, which is Belief Alone-ism or a faith in Christ that has not entered the Sanctification Process. For in Sanctification, a believer works with God in putting away sin, living more holy, and doing good works by the working of God through them. James says we are justified by works and not by faith alone (James 2:24). James says faith without works is dead (James 2:17). James says he will show you his faith by his works (James 2:18). For even the demons believe and tremble (James 2:19).

prophecy_uk · Aug 30, 2021

Clare: " There was nothing wrong with the law, the error was in man's understanding."

BibleHighlighter: " If there was something wrong with the Old Law (that has ended with Christ’s death), then God made a mistake."

Was something wrong or not with the law?

Examine that law with me for a moment, how the rebellious son was put to death, how a witch was not left to live, how idol worshippers were destroyed, to be holy with God, and every one who cursed mother or father to be put to death, put to death for abominable things, for adultery, both adulterer and adulteress put to death..

Deuteronomy 21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
19 Whosoever lieth with a beast shall surely be put to death.
20 He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the Lord only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Leviticus 20:7 Sanctify yourselves therefore, and be ye holy: for I am the Lord your God.
8 And ye shall keep my statutes, and do them: I am the Lord which sanctify you.
9 For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.
10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

Ezekiel 20:36, God says HE WILL PLEAD WITH ISRAEL, like as He pleaded with their fathers in the wilderness.

Ezekiel 20, shows how God will pass Israel under the ROD, to bring them into the BOND OF THE COVENANT, God gave Israel statutes that were not good, judgments that do not bring life, their own gifts caused their own pollution ( of mercilessness to offer their own children as sacrifices TO PASS THROUGH THE FIRE)

The whole purpose of God leads them to know that God is the Lord, and causes Israel to PASS UNDER THE ROD, AND BRINGING THEM INTO THE BOND OF THE COVENANT, which purges out the transgressors...

Ezekiel 20:36 Like as I pleaded with your fathers in the wilderness of the land of Egypt, so will I plead with you, saith the Lord God.
37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:

Ezekiel 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
26 And I polluted them in their own gifts, in that they caused to pass through the fire all that openeth the womb, that I might make them desolate, to the end that they might know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 20:37 And I will cause you to pass under the rod, and I will bring you into the bond of the covenant:
38 And I will purge out from among you the rebels, and them that transgress against me: I will bring them forth out of the country where they sojourn, and they shall not enter into the land of Israel: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

More on the rod, to hear the rod and who appointed it to see the name of God ( Jesus Christ) as the Lord sent the rod of His strength out of Zion, and the ROD CAME FORTH, out of Jesse, and He smote the earth with the ROD OF HIS MOUTH, and slayed the wicked with the breath of His lips, and with righteousness He judged the poor and reproved with equity for the MEEK OF THE EARTH..

Micah 6:9 The Lord's voice crieth unto the city, and the man of wisdom shall see thy name: hear ye the rod, and who hath appointed it.

Psalm 110:2 The Lord shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Isaiah 11:4 But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
5 And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.

Gods pleading with Israel continues, the controversy with ALL NATIONS, and God PLEADS WITH ALL FLESH.

Christ the Lord came to Israel, with fire and His rebuke for Israel with flames of fire, for by fire and His sword did the Lord plead with all flesh, slaying many ( Christ came not to give peace but a sword and many are called but never chosen/slain)

God takes of them for priests, who remain along with the new heaven and new earth God makes ( wherein dwells righteousness)

Then the men that have transgressed against the Lord, where their worm dies not, never have their fire quenched..

Jeremiah 25:31 A noise shall come even to the ends of the earth; for the Lord hath a controversy with the nations, he will plead with all flesh; he will give them that are wicked to the sword, saith the Lord.

Isaiah 66:15 For, behold, the Lord will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For by fire and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many.

Isaiah 66:21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the Lord.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.

Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

Jesus coming to do fiery judgement, shows, if a hand is an offence, cut the offence off, or all offenders go into hell, into the fire that never is quenched and their worm dies not, again what offends to cut it off, or all offence is cast into hell, where the worm dies not and the fire is not quenched, and what offends to cut it off, as it is better than keeping the offence, to then be cast into hell fire, where their worm dies not and the fire is not quenched..

Mark 9:43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Remembering that the adulterers are put to death, and how Jesus comes with fiery judgement, and also just for the meek, then not committing adultery meant not offending God, or to be put to death, now the offence is to be cast away or into hell fire we go.

On top of that, the law was for hating your enemy, now God gave the hearing, to ,love our enemies and to do good to them that hate you...

Matthew 5:27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

Matthew 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Luke 6:27 But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

The Jews had in the law, how those in adultery should be put to death.

Also, the disciples of Jesus, James and John requested if fire should come down onto the men opposing them, as they heard in the law and the prophets as Elias did, but Jesus shows this is not of a meek spirit, as Jesus came to save the meek and not to destroy ( as they heard these things to put to death in the law and the prophets)...

John 8:4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

Luke 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Then such an High priest becomes us, to be holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and we be blameless, harmless, the sons of God without any more rebuke ( as remains on the transgressors) God takes of us for priests as spoken to Israel in Isaiah 66:21....

Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

That is why the law could not give life, statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live, as righteousness was not by the law, it was disannulled because of the weakness and unprofitableness of it, making nothing/nobody perfect, but the bringing in of the better hope DID, that hope stops the shame ( they still do works of shame being transgressors today) because the love of God is shed into our hearts, the Holy Ghost given, which as spoken, is the bringing in of the better hope to make us perfect ( in love of your enemies and not hating and killing the offenders as in thew law that had NO LOVE) which is to hear Him and see Him..

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

Hebrews 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 John 4:12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

Ezekiel 20:25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes that were not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;

All of that shows the law was faulty, and what was wrong with it, it also proves the ones who say there is nothing wrong with the law, do not believe in love replacing hatred ( hate thine enemy/now love your enemies now it is the LAW OF CHRIST) and also sanctification and justification are by confessing Christ, as denying Christ is in their unsanctified doctrine and sins transgressing (sometimes) as the BOND of the covenant that God brought Israel ( us) into is the charity of the Lord to be put on which is perfectness, Gods love in Christ in us and one with us perfect together..

Colossians 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

chad kincham · Aug 30, 2021

DaDaBrothers said:
If you seperate the works from the faith, you kill the faith, you make it dead faith.

By your own definition of "Dead = not living, not existing or operating."
Faith without works is dead (not existing/its nothing/no such thing).
So in order to even have living perfected faith to exist you must have works first working with faith, and is the works that give life to the faith.
James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Yet you keep saying "faith apart from works justifies".
1st faith without works is dead/nothing/ it doesnt exist. Theres no such thing as "faith apart from works". You either have works or you have nothing/dead faith.
And 2nd since you killed the faith by separating it from the works you are now saying this "dead faith justifies", you are saying the devils are "justified".
So I hope you stop saying "faith apart from works", because if you remove the works you kill the faith.
Matthew 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

You can only be justified with works, because with faith only is death.
You can only be justified by true faith, with works. The moment you say "apart from its works" you have killed the faith, and it no longer justifies you. You are not justified by dead faith.
So stop deceiving yourself and others with dead faith. And start serving God in deed and in truth.

The confusion is because people don’t understand what Paul taught about works.

Pauls emphasis is that we are justified apart from the works of the law of Moses.

James is not saying Abraham was justified by works of the law of Moses, but by was justified by a different type of works.

Thus there’s no contradiction there, but people quote Paul when discussing justification in James, which is apples and oranges.

prophecy_uk · Aug 30, 2021

Clare: "Absolutely. . .but it is only the faith that saves, faith's works do not save.
It's not complicated."

BibleHighlighter: " But in Ephesians 2:10, Paul is talking about an entirely different kind of work. It is the work of God done through the believer after they are saved by God’s grace"

Seeing you guys are discussing faith and initial salvation, along with a sanctification process, here is what we are told about confessing or denying of Christ ( which is faith and believing or having no faith)

To confess Christ, is to not deny Him and we then as told all below in Matthew, deny ourselves instead of denying Christ, to then follow after Jesus to take up our cross, not denying Jesus by not denying ourselves and our lives, but to do as He says, to love Him above others, to be WORTHY OF HIM.

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.
25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

We remember that if we deny Christ, he denies us ( then we had no faith and could not be saved by faith alone right ?)

Jesus seen here, denies knowing us, because of them saying Lord, Lord, but working iniquity. All the ones we know of are there, but we cannot be unless we make true confession.

With the heart man believes unto righteousness ( not iniquity for our belief) and then confession is made for this salvation in Christ..

Luke 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.

Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

To live with Christ, we must be dead with Him ( dead to sin 100 percent)

Suffering in the sufferings of Christ to reign with Him.

Denying these, and denying Christ, Christ then denies us.

All other words, it is testified, are striving about words to no profit, you are charged..

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:
12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

Here is more on denying Christ/denying the faith, it is required to provide for your brothers and those of your own home, or of course there is no faith there..

1 Timothy 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Above we know in Romans, it says, confession is made unto salvation, ( with the heart believing unto righteousness and that new heart and Spirit have to be given or we can confess nothing without calling in truth in the Spirit of truth given) and then every one that names, the name of Christ departs from iniquity ( or they are denied by Christ for being a worker of iniquity which is them denying Christ)...

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

The discussion/opinion you guys have, is predicted by God, see all the detail here, you cant avoid any part of it, false teachers shall be among us, in their heresies, which is them DENYING THE LORD, by subtle ways many follow them, through coveteousness with their made up words.

When they speak their great swelling words of vanity, they promise liberty to those who live in error ( the error of the wicked's ways) and they serve corruption ( they still serve sin ) they entangle again and again in their sin, ( they confess this) but it was better for them to never have known the way of truth, than to speak evil of it and to turn from it, but the dog returns to it's own vomit, so do they never cleansed this generation only clean in their own eyes, never washed but only have the fierceness God spoke of and are only lofty in their own eyes. As natural brute beasts, following the wages of their unrighteousness doctrine/ideas, speaking evil of what they cant understand, they are unstable and support not being able to cease from sin ( until Heaven they say) contrary to Gods word of testimony..

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up.
14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.

2 Peter 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:

Then the discussion is just right, the perilous times have come, they have a form of godliness, but they DENY THE POWER THEREOF.

They PROFESS that they know God, BUT IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, BEING DISOBEDIENT AND UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK ( REQUIRED FOR SALVATION FROM THE START) THEY ARE REPROBATE..

2 Timothy 3: 1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 Timothy 3:4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

But the grace of God appeared to us for salvation, that DENYING UNGODLINESS AND WORLDLY LUSTS, we live with Him soberly ( if we are dead with Him to sins we live or we die/deny Him) then we live unto Him in righteousness and godliness, to hold fast the name of Christ, otherwise it is denying His faith ( denying Christ is not faith at all) as to have that strength in us i the inner man by Christ is to keep His word ( from the very start ) otherwise they denied His name and never confessed true..

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Revelation 2:13 I know thy works, and where thou dwellest, even where Satan's seat is: and thou holdest fast my name, and hast not denied my faith, even in those days wherein Antipas was my faithful martyr, who was slain among you, where Satan dwelleth.

Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.

prophecy_uk · Aug 30, 2021

Chad: "Pauls emphasis is that we are justified apart from the works of the law of Moses.

James is not saying Abraham was justified by works of the law of Moses, but by was justified by a different type of works."

We don't need to have opinions, all we need is what we are testified ( by God)

Here is what Abraham found pertaining to the flesh ( the law )

Abraham believed God, this is righteousness...

Romans 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

This righteousness belief comes on the Gentiles, as it was reckoned in uncircumcision, then Abraham receives the sign of the seal of faith, of the righteousness of faith, which goes to all that believe then, to those who walk in the steps of faithful Abraham and to the circumcision.

Abraham who against hope believed in hope ( we are saved by hope/faith) to become the father of all nations, and His seed will be Christ ( in us and the seal of the faith/the circumcision of Christ) not weak in faith but strong, which gives glory to God.

Then we must believe in Him who rose Christ our Lord from the dead, to have the same righteousness of faith that glories God imputed to us, Christ being raised for our justification ( we are raised in newness of life when dead to sin and baptised into His death)..

Romans 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Remember, the question above, what Abraham found pertaining to the flesh, this is the same finding for us here, when we were in the flesh, the law worked in us to bring fruit to death ( no glory brought to God in that)

Now we are delivered from that law( flesh) that held us dead, to serve in newness of Spirit, not in the oldness of the letter ( then the Spirit is given to not blaspheme God instead of glorify Him which is the new covenant or we have no faith/ seal of faith without the circumcision of Christ on us)..

Romans 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

This then explains, how Abraham was justified by works, to offer Isaac, because the works had to be there to have the seal of faith, which fulfils the scripture, to make faith perfect ( faith has to be perfect or no sign of the seal of faith was given or received)

Then we understand how Abraham believed God,, had it imputed as righteousness and called the friend of God, for we are not Gods friend without both the offering of Isaac ( for us to receive the offering of the Son of God as that was received as a figure) or o have the seal of faith by circumcision, to have our works justify us, and not faith only..

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Hebrews 11:19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

Now, here is that circumcision, putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, and the uncicumcision now keeps the righteousness of the law, by the circumcision of Christ..

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Philippians 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Romans 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?

the standard of righteousness

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Blood-bought

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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