20 major reasons to reject the Premillennial doctrine

Guojing said:

I already stated Israel is currently fallen

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Two Israels.

Romans 9
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

1. Of Israel:
Not all Israel
The children of the flesh
Not the children of God
Not the children of the promise
Not counted for the seed

2. All Israel:
Not of Israel
Not the children of the flesh
The children of God
The children of the promise
Counted for the seed

Only one of these Israels shall be saved.

Romans 11
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

Only the faithful obedient "all Israel", comprised of the believing elect beloved remnant of Israel (Romans 9:27; 11:1-5,26,28), and believers from among the Gentiles (Romans 11:11), shall be saved.


The true significance of God's choice of Isaac had nothing to do with genetics, and everything to do with faith and obedience. Isaac was the "child of promise", a product of the faith and obedience of his parents Abraham and Sarah. Faith, because both Abraham and Sarah believed God's promise that Abraham would sire a son even though both of them were well beyond the point of physical capability. (Hebrews 11:11-12) Obedience, because Abraham was willing to obey God's instructions to sacrifice Isaac, in apparent violation of His own promise. Yet in further faith he obeyed to the point where God's intervention was elicited. (Hebrews 11:17-19). God's response was to honor all three of them by choosing Isaac's lineage to be that through which Messiah would come.

Hebrews 11
8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,
18 Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called:
19 Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

We then further see Isaac, the "child of promise", continue his parents' spiritual legacy to also become a spiritual progenitor of those of faith and obedience in and to Christ -- His Church -- His "children of promise" heirs:

Romans 9:7-8
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Galatians 4:28
Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
Galatians 3:29
And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Romans 8:16-17
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.

Thus Isaac, in the full tradition of his parents Abraham and Sarah, continued their legacies of faith and obedience, to the benefit of us all who follow in their spiritual footsteps.

Faith and obedience.

Spiritual DNA.

God's sole and exclusive Covenant conditions.

And nothing else.

sovereigngrace said:

In the light of the introduction of the new covenant, and within a New Testament context, Paul takes time to examine the whole dynamic between national Israel and God’s righteous remnant. Romans 11:25-29 tells us: “For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.”

This is a passage that has confused many Christians over the years. The reason for this seems to revolve around the phrase “all Israel shall be saved.” There are many that deduce corporate salvation for natural Israel from this. But is Paul contradicting himself in his Romans 9-11 discourse? In one breath in Romans 9:27 he is saying “a remnant shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative), in the next, in Romans 11:26, he is saying “all Israel shall be saved” (future, passive, indicative).

Let us be absolutely assured: Paul is definitely not opposing himself, neither is the Holy Spirit, who inspired him to pen this, confused. He is in no way teaching corporate salvation in Romans 11:25-29, as some would suggest, or else he would be reversing everything he has just taught in the preceding verses and chapters of this book (and his other Epistles) in regard to an elect remnant. Salvation was never secured on the grounds of race; it was always by grace through faith. Moreover, the Gospel opportunity in the New Testament is always shown to be open to all nationalities equally; this includes natural Israel.

So, let us summarize:

· To arrive at the ‘corporate position’ one has to totally ignore Paul’s overriding message of two types of Israeli in Romans 9–11 (and in the whole book of Romans). Throughout, he is constantly differentiating between Israelis that are blind and Israelis that are elect.
· They also have to ignore the whole context and setting of Paul’s comments “all Israel shall be saved.” He uses the phrase immediately after demonstrating that the elect Israeli good olive only holds those Jews that are of the household of “faith.”
· As Paul expands his argument on the salvation of his own kinsmen, and tells us that all Israel shall be saved, he does it within the vital context of a faithful believing remnant of Israelis. Many fail to see that Paul has already established that the believing element within the overall physical nation of Israel is “a remnant.”
· Some also seem to overlook Paul’s supporting evidence from the Old Testament Scripture (in Isaiah 59:20) that shows that the people in view are a spiritual segment of the overall whole who put their faith in Christ and repent of their sin.
In Romans 11:25-29, Paul is basically summing up everything he has just said previous in Romans 9–11, in regard to there being a chosen remnant within natural Israel that will be brought through in this intra-Advent period (while the Gentiles were being brought in). He saw a day when all that belonged to true Israel would finally be completed. That is why he uses the future tense. Greg L. Bahnsen submits: “God’s covenant promise never guaranteed salvation for all of ethnic Israel, says Paul, but it did provide for the inclusion of the Gentiles in salvation” (Gospel Prosperity and the Future of Israel).

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Thanks for sharing your personal interpretation of the passage.

Wait, you do believe that it is your interpretation, correct?

sovereigngrace said:

Your response to a detailed post in seconds shows that you are not even reading my posts, never mind addressing them. It is pointless engaging with you.

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You made false accusations that I did not back my opinion with scripture, and you don't even know whether or not I read your post, but you just assumed I did not.

sovereigngrace said:

For the record: you didn't present anything from Scripture that supports your Dispy claims.

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Is that your opinion, or is that a fact?

sovereigngrace said:

A fact. Now, did you read that previous post before posting?

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I see, no wonder there is this arrogant attitude you constantly show in bible discussions.

Alright then. If I say I did read your post, does it really matter since you regard your own opinions as facts?

Guojing said:

The nation of Israel will ultimately be saved at the end of the Tribulation, because God's promises to their ancestors Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were unconditional (Romans 11:25-32)

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This statement is probably what the majority of Christians believe.
So; we can understand why you hold to it with some confidence.

However, remember that the majority is not always right and this is a case where they are not.
Other posters here have made the watertight case for how it is only individual people; the faithful Christians; Jews and Gentiles, who are now the true people of God. His Israelites by their faith. Galatians 3:26-29 makes it clear who the true descendants of Abraham are.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is never prophesied. Their virtual demise is.

keras said:

This statement is probably what the majority of Christians believe.
So; we can understand why you hold to it with some confidence.

However, remember that the majority is not always right and this is a case where they are not.
Other posters here have made the watertight case for how it is only individual people; the faithful Christians; Jews and Gentiles, who are now the true people of God. His Israelites by their faith. Galatians 3:26-29 makes it clear who the true descendants of Abraham are.

The idea of a general Jewish redemption is never prophesied. Their virtual demise is.

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Actually I don't think that is true. Most protestants, since they love to take doctrine from the 4 Gospels and Acts, they generally subscribe to Covenant theology.

Thus, they believed that Israel is a term describing all those who believe in Christ, regardless of whether they are Jews or gentiles.

If that is your doctrine too, then yes, I can understand why you would disagree.

We can agree to disagree there.

Guojing said:

For one thing, after Exodus, there is no verse that said God made a covenant with Gentiles. The covenants are always made with the nation Israel.

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Not true! There is the Ademic covenant and the Noahic covenant; and yes you did say "after Exodus". However, the reason your statement is inaccurate is because all other covenants in scripture are built on the foundational covenant of Genesis 3:15. The "new covenant" is a fulfillment of

Jer 31:31..."Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"
This is the last covenant God made.

Guojing said:

Most protestants, since they love to take doctrine from the 4 Gospels and Acts, they generally subscribe to Covenant theology.

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Again that is not true. Believing Christians take the whole Bible and see the OT as a fulfillment of the OT prophesies.

Correction of my last statement: Believing Christians take the whole Bible and see the NEW TESTAMENT as a fulfillment of the OT prophesies.

Moriah's Song said:

Not true! There is the Ademic covenant and the Noahic covenant; and yes you did say "after Exodus". However, the reason your statement is inaccurate is because all other covenants in scripture are built on the foundational covenant of Genesis 3:15. The "new covenant" is a fulfillment of

Jer 31:31..."Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah,"
This is the last covenant God made.


Again that is not true. Believing Christians take the whole Bible and see the OT as a fulfillment of the OT prophesies.

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The scripture you used, post exodus, already stated that the new covenant will be made with the house of Israel and Judah. You are proving my point.

Interestingly, by claiming that Genesis 3:15 is a covenant, you have also shown your foundational beliefs come from Covenant Theology.

The Significance of Genesis 3:15

Indeed, you have illustrated what I told Keras, so many protestants hold to that.

Again that is not true. Believing Christians take the whole Bible and see the NEW TESTAMENT as a fulfillment of the OT prophesies. (corrected OT to NT)

Guojing said:

The scripture you used, post exodus, already stated that the new covenant will be made with the house of Israel and Judah.

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Act 2:36 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Act 2:14 - Peter addresses those of the House of Judea..."Men of Judea...."
Act 2: 22 - Peter then addresses those of the House of Israel..."Men of Israel..."
Heb 3:6 - "...but Christ was faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if we hold fast our confidence and pride in our hope.

Heb 8:8 - For he finds fault with them when he says: "The days will come, says the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

Heb 8:10 - This is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Moriah's Song said:

Again that is not true. Believing Christians take the whole Bible and see the OT as a fulfillment of the OT prophesies.
Act 2:36 - Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."
Act 2:14 - Peter addresses those of the House of Judea..."Men of Judea...."
Act 2: 22 - Peter then addresses those of the House of Israel..."Men of Israel..."

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Yes, Peter only addressed the nation Israel in Acts 2. Is that what you are claiming too?

Guojing said:

Yes, Peter only addressed the nation Israel in Acts 2. Is that what you are claiming too?

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Read my edit of Hebrews.

Moriah's Song said:

Read my edit of Hebrews.

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If your point is to use the book of Hebrews and underlining the phrase And we are his house, it doesn't help your argument.

The book of Hebrews was written as doctrine for the nation Israel, Hebrews = Jews. Hebrew | people

My point to you remains "The scripture you used, post exodus, already stated that the new covenant will be made with the house of Israel and Judah."

Guojing said:

My point to you remains "The scripture you used, post exodus, already stated that the new covenant will be made with the house of Israel and Judah."

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AND IT WAS!

Moriah's Song said:

AND IT WAS!

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"will make", and "I will" are all future tense to me.

But do you agree there is no scripture, post Exodus, that said God makes covenants with gentiles?

You earlier disagreed, without providing any.