144 Thousand in Revelations 7

grafted branch · Aug 27, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
To be sure!! You're not kidding!! I've written copious amounts about a fulfilled second coming in AD 70 and another future third coming on various other websites. Even though scripture says otherwise, people go to great lengths in order to hang on to having Satan still operating in this world. It's almost as if they LOVE the idea of him still lurking around as a scapegoat to blame for the world's evil. Robycop3 and I have exchanged some very lively conversations elsewhere on another forum about eschatological subjects. I didn't expect to convince him, but it was very good interpretive exercise. If what I have discovered has no truth in it after all, then I WANT it to be proven wrong by scripture, historical record, and sound reasoning.

You might be interested in the thread by @Douggg where do you fit. It’s a couple of pages back and it shows what views many participants of this forum hold. If you want to add your name just make a post on the tread and Doug will add you to the first post in whatever categories you think you fit.

Timtofly · Aug 28, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
You might be saying this tongue in cheek, but I agree that the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints never died again. That's not even possible for a saint raised to incorruptibility by the power of the Spirit. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." Not twice. You might as well say that the Holy Spirit can die. Or that Jesus can die twice. But the Matthew 27 resurrected Firstfruits saints are not on this planet anymore, and haven't been since they were "raptured" long ago. They were the ones who had been MADE "alive", but who had "remained" on earth (per the I Thess. 4 "rapture" passage).

The "rapture" text needs a little adjustment from the typical interpretation it usually gets. Because it never was intended to include a "translation" type of change for those who hadn't died yet. No one was ever given that promise in scripture - only the promise that the saints' dead physical bodies would be changed.

Biblelesson, there is a distinct difference between the "FIRSTBORN" and the "FIRSTFRUITS". They are not the same thing. One is singular, and the other plural. Christ is ever and always the ONLY ONE who could claim the exclusive "FIRSTBORN" title, but He shared the "FIRSTFRUITS" title with those 144,000 Firstfruits saints whom He raised out of the grave along with Himself.

The whole intent of the emphasis on the Firstborn who "opened the matrix" back under Mosaic law was to point forward in time to Christ the "Firstborn" who would open up the way for all His brethren to eventually stand before the Father in heaven once they were resurrected. NO ONE had ever ascended to heaven in a resurrected body before Christ had done this on the morning after His resurrection. This does give Him the preeminence, as you are pointing out.

If you can't recognize that the "FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20:5 was that of Christ the "FIRST-fruits" and the relatively small "remnant of the dead" Matt. 27 saints who came to life again at that point, then you are missing the first-century elements that are part of that prophecy. Those sitting on thrones who had judgment given to them in Revelation 20:4 were the apostles sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel during the era of the early church in Jerusalem. Christ had promised this to them earlier in Matthew 19:28, once He had been regenerated in the AD 33 resurrection and had sat on the throne of His glory at His final ascension.

Just pointing out that you have the wrong group of humans at the wrong time.

The first half of Revelation 7 is a future firstfruits. It is a specific number that is essentially named.

Matthew 27's firstfruits are the second half of Revelation 7, a number too large to count. It is the difference between the 12 disciples and a larger group of people who made up the firstfruits of the 1st century church and on until now.

Paul gives us 3 groups:

Firstfruits: the OT and those who have died once.

Those alive at the Second Coming.

Then the end after the Millennium: the 144k the sheep and wheat of the OD, all these humans from after the Second Coming until the GWT.

There are 2 Resurrections:
The bodily one at the Cross is also an ongoing phenomenon to Paradise.

Those harvested in the GT at the Second Coming in Revelation 20:4. This is the earthly rule for the Day of the Lord. The last 1000 years when the kingdom is handed back to God.

The only third potential resurrection would be out of sheol at the GWT, if a soul decides to accept God at that point. A fact most deny as a last chance to escape eternal damnation in the Lake of Fire.

No one seems to teach that those currently in Paradise have permanent incorruptible bodies per 2 Corinthians 5. And those who live and are born in the next Millennium will also have incorruptible bodies without a sin nature. That is why there is a physical bodily resurrection. Adam's flesh is not changed. The soul changes one body, corruptible for one body incorruptible. The Lake of Fire may be filled with physical bodies, but that would make it different than sheol, which is defined as a place where the soul is without a physical body. Adam's body though is temporary and returns to dust. This is the fallen corruptible body given to Adam the day he disobeyed God and physically died, going from a permanent incorruptible body without sin, to a temporary corruptible body with sin. A resurrection is going back to the permanent incorruptible body, we as sons of God were created with.

Timtofly · Aug 28, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Not as difficult as you might suppose.

Actually, I have been doing that very thing for the past 9 years on various other Christian websites. The proof for timing a bodily resurrection of the saints in AD 70 is all through the NT writings - and the OT - and there are recorded external proofs related to this as well. I don't know why in all my 50-some years as a believer that I didn't see this until late in life, but better late than never!

Like many others, I also hold to a total 7,000-year projected history for fallen mankind, (symbolically reflective of the 7-day creation week), which has been proposed before by rabbinic sources and even pre-millennium dispensational adherents. But as for the Revelation 20 millennium, I see scripture planting it exactly in the middle of those 7,000 years - not at the end. Because scripture tells us exactly when that Rev. 20 millennium ENDED, then we can use that information to place all of human history in its correct position on the timeline.

It is SOOO faith-confirming to see ancient historical records aligning with all of Revelation's unsealed, WRITTEN prophecies (excluding, of course, the sealed-up, UNWRITTEN prophecies of Rev. 10:4 that would apply to times post-AD 70.) I can totally rest my hopes for the future in a God who keeps all His promises to the very day.

The Hebrews are off on their 7000 year calendar. They broke the 4th Commandment, and forgot the first Sabbath was 1000 years. This current creation has a shelf life of 8000 years.

And the perfect Millennium is not part of the 6000 years given to Adam as punishment. There is a literal perfect Millennium where Jesus Christ Himself will rule from Jerusalem. There is another poster who believes the Millennium also ended at the Cross.

Saying the Millennium already happened is not considered preterist, but amil, as not a future mil event. Could even be post mill, as well.

3 Resurrections · Aug 28, 2021

Timtofly said:
The first half of Revelation 7 is a future firstfruits. It is a specific number that is essentially named

Not a future group for John's time. A PAST resurrection of Firstfruits.

Not everything in Revelation was supposed to be a prophecy of the future. Remember, in Christ's Rev. 1:19 instructions to John, he was told to "write the things that thou HAST SEEN" (past events for John, who had been in Jerusalem when the Matthew 27 saints were raised), "and the things that ARE" (present events in John's time), "and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things" (events soon to happen in John's days). The tricky part is in figuring out just which of Revelation's events fit into which time bracket.

The Matthew 27 Firstfruits raised from the dead in that "First resurrection" were called only a "remnant" - a relatively small fraction in Rev. 20:5 - NOT a great unnumbered throng, such as the afterwards group in Revelation 7:9.

The Matthew 27 resurrected Firstfruits were also spoken of back in Luke 18:7. Remember the parable Christ gave of the unjust judge and the widow? He spoke of His "elect" crying day and night to him for vengeance, whom He was going to avenge "speedily" when He returned. This group crying for vengeance was the very same as the group under the altar in Revelation 6:10, crying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" After they were given white robes (a sign of the resurrected righteousness of the Matthew 27 saints), they were told to "rest yet for a little season" (by the Matthew 27 resurrected saints remaining on earth), "until their fellow-servants also, and their brethren that are ABOUT TO BE KILLED as they were, should be fulfilled." This particular later group of brethren ABOUT TO BE KILLED in John's days was the great unnumbered resurrected throng that John saw in heaven in Revelation 7:9, who perished under great tribulation.

Timtofly said:
The soul changes one body, corruptible for one body incorruptible.

By this, you are not describing a CHANGE of the physical body, but an EXCHANGE. This is NOT what is taught in scripture. Our bodies that return to dust are themselves brought back to life into an incorruptible state for the saints that can never die again. Christ is in the renovation and regeneration business. If our original body forms were not to be featured in this renovation process, then we would essentially be in the same condition as the wicked dead who are destroyed in the "resurrection to damnation" which is destruction of their body, soul, and spirit.

3 Resurrections · Aug 28, 2021

Timtofly said:
And the perfect Millennium is not part of the 6000 years given to Adam as punishment

A few things here I would differ with you about. For one thing, never is the literal thousand-year period described as being a PERFECT time period on earth. Merely that Satan's deception of the nations was temporarily bound by a chain for that time. Just because Satan's deception was chained was NOT a guarantee that the world was zapped into a totally righteous state during that time. Remember, even though Adam was NOT deceived in the Garden, yet he still sinned in spite of knowing exactly what he was doing. Sin can still be committed, even when deception is not involved.

I would also hesitate to call 6,000 years of human history for Adam's race a punishment; it's more like a probationary period, "...til we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ..." (Ephesians 4:13 - accomplished ultimately when we reach the eternal state of perfected glory).

And I would differ with you that 6,000 is the amount of time fallen man is granted . I believe it will be the full "week" of 7,000 years total for fallen mankind before Christ establishes the eternal state, and we enter the 8th millennium. Eight in scripture is typically the number for new beginnings. (Circumcision on the 8th day, 8 souls on the ark beginning another age after the Flood, etc..)

It doesn't bother me that a past, fulfilled, Revelation 20 millennium is unusual for a preterist. My paradigm is rather eclectic, with salvaged bits of truth from many of the various viewpoints, all combined into a cohesive whole with hopefully no internal contradictions.

Timtofly · Aug 28, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Not a future group for John's time. A PAST resurrection of Firstfruits.

Not everything in Revelation was supposed to be a prophecy of the future. Remember, in Christ's Rev. 1:19 instructions to John, he was told to "write the things that thou HAST SEEN" (past events for John, who had been in Jerusalem when the Matthew 27 saints were raised), "and the things that ARE" (present events in John's time), "and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things" (events soon to happen in John's days). The tricky part is in figuring out just which of Revelation's events fit into which time bracket.

The Matthew 27 Firstfruits raised from the dead in that "First resurrection" were called only a "remnant" - a relatively small fraction in Rev. 20:5 - NOT a great unnumbered throng, such as the afterwards group in Revelation 7:9.

The 144k are not resurrected. They are sealed and changed so they will not die, even when those around them die. There were no recognized 12 tribes of Israel as named in Revelation 7 in the first century.

Are there one's today? People throughout the world seem to have a firmer grasp on the 12 tribes today, than they did in the first century. Also the point even symbolically is that these 144k are not a remnant, but represent the "whole" group. Not the whole remnant, the whole body of Christ.

Calling them the surviving remnant does not make sense. They were sealed prior to any pronounced judgment. The actual harvest itself is the remnant, not the ones gathering the harvest or sowing the seed.

The reason they are sealed with the church before the 7th Seal is opened is not expressed. But to claim they are a remnant does not fit that they were sealed prior to the Trumpet judgments. These humans do not even have a conscious choice in the matter.

Unlike the OT firstfruits who died in faith looking for that heavenly city. Even the 12 disciples were there by choice to remain a disciple. Judas did forsake the calling. Peter denied the Lord, but repented. Jesus even asked at one time if they would go away also. This is totally different than the 144k being sealed. You have yet to prove they can die. All 12 disciples have left earth for Paradise. They were a core group among 70, but that is about as far as any similarity.

3 Resurrections said:
The Matthew 27 resurrected Firstfruits were also spoken of back in Luke 18:7. Remember the parable Christ gave of the unjust judge and the widow? He spoke of His "elect" crying day and night to him for vengeance, whom He was going to avenge "speedily" when He returned. This group crying for vengeance was the very same as the group under the altar in Revelation 6:10, crying "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" After they were given white robes (a sign of the resurrected righteousness of the Matthew 27 saints), they were told to "rest yet for a little season" (by the Matthew 27 resurrected saints remaining on earth), "until their fellow-servants also, and their brethren that are ABOUT TO BE KILLED as they were, should be fulfilled." This particular later group of brethren ABOUT TO BE KILLED in John's days was the great unnumbered resurrected throng that John saw in heaven in Revelation 7:9, who perished under great tribulation.

By this, you are not describing a CHANGE of the physical body, but an EXCHANGE. This is NOT what is taught in scripture. Our bodies that return to dust are themselves brought back to life into an incorruptible state for the saints that can never die again. Christ is in the renovation and regeneration business. If our original body forms were not to be featured in this renovation process, then we would essentially be in the same condition as the wicked dead who are destroyed in the "resurrection to damnation" which is destruction of their body, soul, and spirit.

Not according to this verse:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

No need for exchange. Change is ample description. The soul leaving the body is not even normally a conscious choice. We do not decide to exchange bodies. Not all Christians will experience an exchange. How do you describe the fit of your permanent incorruptible body? No exchange between the two.

If you have proof of this change to the body that Jesus clearly says returns to dust, we can discuss it.

3 Resurrections · Aug 28, 2021

Timtofly said:
The 144k are not resurrected. They are sealed and changed so they will not die, even when those around them die.

Of course they were resurrected. That's what the whole "sealing" and "changed" status was about - an indication that they would never die again, once they had been resurrected.

Timtofly said:
There were no recognized 12 tribes of Israel as named in Revelation 7 in the first century.

That's not the point. The point was that the Matthew 27 resurrected saints who had been buried around Jerusalem had once been a member coming from those enumerated tribes. However long ago they had been buried around Jerusalem, there were 12,000 of them coming from every one of those listed tribes included in the group of 144,000 Matt. 27 First-fruits saints raised from the dead.

Timtofly said:
Also the point even symbolically is that these 144k are not a remnant, but represent the "whole" group. Not the whole remnant, the whole body of Christ.

The 144,000 "FIRST-fruits" ARE the "FIRST resurrection", which WAS called "the remnant of the dead" in Rev. 20:5. This "First resurrection" necessarily HAD TO BE followed by at least another second resurrection event. Therefore, the 144,000 could not have been the "whole" group or the "whole" body of Christ. A "remnant" is only a small fraction of a whole, bigger group, which is the whole body of Christ.

Timtofly said:
No need for exchange. Change is ample description. The soul leaving the body is not even normally a conscious choice. We do not decide to exchange bodies. Not all Christians will experience an exchange. How do you describe the fit of your permanent incorruptible body? No exchange between the two.

I think you may have misunderstood me here. I do NOT believe our dead physical bodies are EXchanged for a different one entirely. The dead bodies of the saints are called "precious" in the sight of the Lord. He values the dust our bodies are made of, and calls them "the work of His hands" that He has a "desire" for in Job 14:15. Not an hair of the disciples' bodies would ever perish, Christ promised, even though most would be martyred before that first century had ended.

The dead bodies of every single saint will ALL BE CHANGED into an incorruptible state eventually, staged in 3 separate events over the span of history. Two of these resurrection events have already occurred, in AD 33 and AD 70. We are now waiting for the third resurrection in our future when God will again stage another event when the Spirit animates the dust of the saints' bodies; changing them (NOT exchanging them) into an incorruptible state that will never die again.

Timtofly · Aug 28, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Of course they were resurrected. That's what the whole "sealing" and "changed" status was about - an indication that they would never die again, once they had been resurrected.

This is totally against Revelation 7:1-8

"Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads."

The 7 Trumpets did not blow in the first century. No 144k were sealed to be saved from the GT mentioned in Revelation 8-10 in the first century. No where does it claim they were dead bodies sealed to come back to life.

3 Resurrections · Aug 28, 2021

Timtofly said:
The 7 Trumpets did not blow in the first century.

Of course the prophecy regarding the 7 trumpets were all fulfilled in the first century. There is matching historical record for each of them. Josephus gives a plethora of details about the sixth trumpet judgment especially. So detailed, in fact, that one would think John copied Josephus in writing Revelation.

John said in both the introduction and the concluding statement of his prophecies that His revealed, unsealed prophecies were all "AT HAND". (Revelation 1:3 and Rev. 22:10). This "AT HAND" phrase is interpreted by God Himself back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. By this, God means that an "at hand" prophecy is NOT going to be "prolonged" into "times that are FAR OFF", but that they would be spoken AND FULFILLED "in YOUR DAYS", to the ones receiving the prophecies for the first time.

Timtofly said:
No where does it claim they were dead bodies sealed to come back to life.

That's not what I said about the resurrected Matthew 27 144,000 Firstfruits . Those resurrected saints were given a symbolic seal of the living God in their foreheads AFTER they were resurrected to life again. Any time something is "sealed" in scripture (like in Daniel 12:9), it is a sign that an assured future event is temporarily delayed, but will most certainly come to pass as promised. The "seal" for the resurrected 144,000 Firstfruits was an assurance that their eventual rapture transport to heaven and into God's presence was a certainty, but would be delayed for a time until their brethren who were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED" as they had been would join them in the AD 70 resurrection. They were "resting for a little season" on earth until that day arrived. That's why the 144,000 were the only ones who could learn that unique song in Rev. 14:3 - because their experience of having their transport to heaven delayed for a time from AD 33 until AD 70 would never again be duplicated in history.

Timtofly · Aug 28, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Of course the prophecy regarding the 7 trumpets were all fulfilled in the first century. There is matching historical record for each of them. Josephus gives a plethora of details about the sixth trumpet judgment especially. So detailed, in fact, that one would think John copied Josephus in writing Revelation.

John said in both the introduction and the concluding statement of his prophecies that His revealed, unsealed prophecies were all "AT HAND". (Revelation 1:3 and Rev. 22:10). This "AT HAND" phrase is interpreted by God Himself back in Ezekiel 12:21-28. By this, God means that an "at hand" prophecy is NOT going to be "prolonged" into "times that are FAR OFF", but that they would be spoken AND FULFILLED "in YOUR DAYS", to the ones receiving the prophecies for the first time.

That's not what I said about the resurrected Matthew 27 144,000 Firstfruits . Those resurrected saints were given a symbolic seal of the living God in their foreheads AFTER they were resurrected to life again. Any time something is "sealed" in scripture (like in Daniel 12:9), it is a sign that an assured future event is temporarily delayed, but will most certainly come to pass as promised. The "seal" for the resurrected 144,000 Firstfruits was an assurance that their eventual rapture transport to heaven and into God's presence was a certainty, but would be delayed for a time until their brethren who were "ABOUT TO BE KILLED" as they had been would join them in the AD 70 resurrection. They were "resting for a little season" on earth until that day arrived. That's why the 144,000 were the only ones who could learn that unique song in Rev. 14:3 - because their experience of having their transport to heaven delayed for a time from AD 33 until AD 70 would never again be duplicated in history.

Sounds like you know more about human reasoning than Scripture. None of what you propose comes from Scripture. And posters think I make stuff up. If you are going to prove that Josephus is inspired, and that all of Revelation is fulfilled, that is way too out there, and I accept the earth is flat.

3 Resurrections · Aug 29, 2021

Timtofly said:
Sounds like you know more about human reasoning than Scripture. None of what you propose comes from Scripture. And posters think I make stuff up. If you are going to prove that Josephus is inspired, and that all of Revelation is fulfilled, that is way too out there, and I accept the earth is flat.

Did you miss all the scripture that I included along with my comment? God has given us HIS rule in Ezekiel 12:21-28 for how to understand just when an "AT HAND" prophecy is fulfilled, like those in Revelation. It is NOT "prolonged" into "times that are far off". An "AT HAND" prophecy is not only spoken, but it is ALSO "PERFORMED" "IN YOUR DAYS" for the ones hearing that prophecy for the first time. We ignore God's own prophetic interpretive rules to our peril.

But I have never stated that ALL of Revelation is fulfilled, without exception. Revelation 10:4 is the exception. Whatever those prophecies were that the 7 thunders uttered, John was told to SEAL THEM UP and "WRITE THEM NOT". Those particular prophecies were NOT fulfilled in those first-century days, leaving them to be revealed in generations following the AD 70 era. Such as in our present time, and in our future as well. Therefore...

UNSEALED WRITTEN prophecies that were "at hand" WERE fulfilled back then in the first-century generation.
SEALED UP UNWRITTEN prophecies were NOT fulfilled back then in the first-century generation.

Also, I have never claimed that Josephus was inspired in his writings. I believe for His own divine purposes God providentially preserved Josephus in the middle of that shipwreck he was in on his way to Rome in AD 63, but that does not make Josephus inspired. It just means God preserved Josephus so he could be useful in recording many of the actual historical fulfillments for us to read of what God had already prophesied through John concerning the things that were "ABOUT TO BE HEREAFTER" - in John's days (Rev. 1:19).

Spiritual Jew · Aug 30, 2021

3 Resurrections said:
Not a future group for John's time. A PAST resurrection of Firstfruits.

Not everything in Revelation was supposed to be a prophecy of the future. Remember, in Christ's Rev. 1:19 instructions to John, he was told to "write the things that thou HAST SEEN" (past events for John, who had been in Jerusalem when the Matthew 27 saints were raised), "and the things that ARE" (present events in John's time), "and the things that are ABOUT TO COME after these things" (events soon to happen in John's days). The tricky part is in figuring out just which of Revelation's events fit into which time bracket.

Are you a full preterist? It looks like you think everything in Revelation is already fulfilled.

3 Resurrections · Aug 30, 2021

Spiritual Jew said:
Are you a full preterist? It looks like you think everything in Revelation is already fulfilled.

.

No, there was one exception in Revelation 10:4.

Every "AT HAND" prophecy that was WRITTEN and UNSEALED was certainly fulfilled in that generation when John was writing Revelation. According to GOD'S own definition of when His "at hand" prophecies were to be fulfilled (Ezekiel 12:21-28).

Every prophecy that was UNWRITTEN and SEALED UP (namely the Revelation 10:4 prophecies) was NOT fulfilled in that same generation, but was reserved for times following AD 70 in John's days - which would include our time and our future.

I differ from the Full Preterists because I am a HUGE supporter of the resurrection of the saints' bodies out of the dust of the grave, changed into an incorruptible state. Not just one general bodily resurrection, but I believe scripture clearly proves that there are no less than THREE of these bodily resurrections, staged to occur on three separate occasions in the complete span of fallen man's history in this world. Hence the "3 Resurrections" avatar.

I differ from the Full Preterists because I see a fulfilled rapture in AD 70 on that Pentecost Day for all the resurrected saints who had died prior to AD 70. NO translation of those who had not died yet, since this goes against the rule in Hebrews 9:27 of an appointment for everyone to die ONCE.

I differ from the Full Preterists in seeing a literal thousand-year fulfilled millennium from 968 / 967 BC until AD 33.

I differ from the Full Preterists in seeing an end to fallen man's history at the close of history's 7th millennium in our future.

I differ from the Full Preterists who believe using gematria applied to the number 666 refers to Nero. It doesn't. It means 666 YEARS that the Sea Beast had existed until John was writing Revelation, ever since 607 BC and Nebuchadnezzar's first deportation of the Jews.

I differ from the Full Preterists who claim that the 7 and 8th "kings of the earth" were the Roman emperors. They weren't. They were the 7 and 8th high priests of the house of Annas, serving from AD 6 until AD 66.

I differ from the Full Preterists who claim a mid-to-late 60's composition date for Revelation. It's earlier. Scripture narrows that date down to a very particular late AD 59 until early AD 60. No later.

I differ from the Full Preterists who are not consistent in their hermeneutics when they say that Satan and the demonic realm is still operating in this world. It's not. It was destroyed to ashes in AD 70.

I differ from the Full Preterists who believe there were only two Beasts in Revelation. There were THREE different Beasts, with different biographies and activities.

And maybe some other points...

Sunshinee777 · Oct 15, 2021

biblelesson said:
Here is an explanation that I hope helps!

The hundred forty and four thousand are not being counted in Revelation 7:3-8, they are being sealed for a specific tribe of Israel (12 tribes of Israel), where all the cities for each tribe of Israel dwells within New Jerusalem, Revelation 21:10-27.

The hundred forty and four thousand that are being sealed in Revelation 7:3-8, are sealed based on Jesus’s promise in Revelation 3:12, and other scriptures.

Revelation 3:12, “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation. 21:23-24, “and the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.” “and the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it…”

The above scriptures says the nations of them that are saved. These are the multitude out of every nation, kindreds, people, and tongue, kindred, that stood before the Lamb clothes in white robes. The multitude that John was seeing in Revelation 7:9, included those that John saw being sealed who were on the earth during God’s wrath, at the sixth seal being opened, Revelation 6:12. God is sealing His servants in their foreheads. The seal in the foreheads represents the name of the city in New Jerusalem, for each tribe of the Children of Israel, which all 12 cities measured 12,000 furlongs each, Revelation 21:16, (not counting).

Important to note that God is making a point to seal his servants during the time of His Wrath upon the earth during the tribulation period, being that there are those of his servants who are still alive, but will die during the tribulations. God does not want His wrath to be against His people, Revelation 9:4, so He seals them for this purpose: so that the angels who are executing His wrath will know who they are, therefore they will not be touched. The suffering that they will receive is from the anti-christ, but not from God's wrath. So again, this seal is not counting, but is the name written on them for the name of the city of God, Revelation 3:12.

Before the angel hurt the trees, sea, and earth, Revelation 7:3 these who are being sealed were spoken about in Revelation 6:9, during the fifth seal, where other of God’s servants had been killed. White robes had been given to them also, Revelation 6:11, and they were told to rest a little season until their fellow-servants and their brothers, should be killed as they were, be fulfilled. So those servants of God being sealed in Revelation 7 would be killed during the tribulation, but they were sealed beforehand. These are those who overcome the tribulation, where God writes upon them the name of the City of God, which is New Jerusalem (measures 144,000 cubits), Revelation 3:12.

Another example of the servants of God that were sealed in Revelation 7:3, is during the Fifth trumpet, where God tells the angel to not hurt the grass or any green thing, and to only hurt those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads, Revelation 9:4. Those who God did not want the angle to hurt in Revelation 9:4, are the same saints in Revelation 7:4-8 who have been sealed. Again to help people see that this is not counting in Revelation 7:4-8, but an actual seal in the foreheads of God’s servants, we have to look at what Jesus said in Revelation 3:12 again. And in Revelation 3:5, Jesus makes it clear that those who overcome will received white raiment (robes), and He will not blot their names out of the book of life.

One of the Elders (I believe these are those resurrected from Abraham’s Bosom when Jesus ascended, and these Elders are already in Heaven) made a point of pointing out those who come through great tribulation and had washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb, Revelation 7:13. These that came out of the tribulation serve God day and night in the Temple, Revelation 7:15-17, In addition to the great multitude that John saw, Revelation 7:9.

Note: The opening of the first seal by the Lamb to the sixth seal, encompasses the beginning of God’s wrath to the end where God will wipe away all tears. At the sixth seal you see the Lamb and God in the Temple, and you see the angels around the throne, there is no more hunger, no more thirst…," Revelation 7:16-17.

The seals, trumpets, and vials which are the wrath of God coming from heaven upon the earth, are all describing various views of the same tribulation event from beginning to end. What’s happening is each one is giving different accounts of events for the same period.

The Hundred Forty and Four Thousand standing on Mount Sion with the Lamb, has the Lamb’s Father’s name written on their foreheads, Revelation 14:1. These are the same sealed in Revelation 7:3-8, and spoken about in Revelation 3:12.

The 144,000 standing on Mount Zion, Revelation 14:4 are called virgins.

“For they are virgins” does not mean men who never had a relationship with a woman. It means those who are saints in Christ, and who are to be married to the Lamb:

2 Corinthians 11:2, for I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Matthew 25:1, then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 25:6, and at midnight there was a cry made, behold, the bridegroom cometh; go you out to meet him.

Matthew 25:7, then all those virgins arose, and. Trimmed their lamps.

Matthew 25:11, and afterwards came also the other virgins, saying, lord, lord, open to us.

Revelation 19:7, let us be glad and rejoice, and give honor to him: for the marriage of the lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready

Revelation 21:2, And I john saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down from heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

Thank you for this! This was something I have been thinking and I am now confirmed

God bless you.

Ralph L · Oct 29, 2021

Want to learn more about the prophecy and fulfillment of the book of Revelation, check out our seminar on Revelation Chapter 6 where we break down every single verse.
Rv 6 Live

English : https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_live

Tagalog : https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_tl_live

Spanish :https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_es_live

eclipsenow · Oct 29, 2021

Ralph L said:
Want to learn more about the prophecy and fulfillment of the book of Revelation, check out our seminar on Revelation Chapter 6 where we break down every single verse.
Rv 6 Live

English : https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_live

Tagalog : https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_tl_live

Spanish :https://bit.ly/revelations_sf_rv6_es_live

Nah - this is better

TribulationSigns · Oct 29, 2021

The 144,000 and the Great Multitudes of Revelation 7 are a great synopsis of the Israel of God, the whole body of believers consisting of both Jews and Gentiles, and how God has made the faithful promise that He will not bring these end-time plagues upon the earth until all the families of Spiritual Israel, not national Israel are sealed. Then and only then will God loose the beast which He bound by the cross. And to be sure, the "All Israel" Saved will be from the beginning of time to this last one sealed at the end-time. The 144,000 symbolize the perfect family of God. All who have ever been sealed! All who have a part in not bloodlines, but in Christ! THEE Seed Israel, the Son brought out of Egypt, and we in Him.

Read a deeper study on Revelation 7 here.

eclipsenow · Oct 29, 2021

Yep. That's pretty much it!

3 Resurrections · Oct 30, 2021

TribulationSigns said:
The 144,000 symbolize the perfect family of God.

No, the 144,000 "First-fruits" coming from all those specified Jewish tribes symbolized the NT gospel emphasis on "To the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek" in those early days of the church. As Paul said in Romans 1:16, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew FIRST, and also to the Greek".

God used the 144,000 First-fruits, those resurrected JEWISH Matthew 27 saints raised from graves around Jerusalem, to evangelize their own people FIRST. This temporary emphasis on evangelism to the Jews in Jerusalem where the early church was launched is a reflection of Christ's commission to the disciples. They were to start their evangelism FIRST in Jerusalem, then in Judea, then in Samaria, then unto the uttermost parts of the earth. They had to start somewhere, and Jesus decreed that the starting point would originate from Jerusalem and expand outward from there. Like the "living water" going out of Jerusalem, as prophesied long before.

We have other places in the gospels where Jesus temporarily instructed His disciples, "Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matt. 10:5-6). This emphasis on the ministry to the Jews FIRST to start with began to change when Christ was about to ascend after those 40 days. At that point, He told them to "go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

We also remember that Jesus told the Canaanite woman that "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel". That was a temporary emphasis, in order for Messiah the Prince to "confirm the covenant" with many of His own people FIRST, while that last 70th week was concentrating gospel evangelism to the Jews FIRST. That is why Paul and Barnabas told the Jews, "It was NECESSARY that the Word of God should FIRST have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo we turn to the Gentiles." (Acts 13:46). This "necessity" was to fulfill that last 70th week of "confirming the covenant for one week" with Daniel's people before the gospel emphasis exploded into the Gentile lands. The 144,000 Jewish Matthew 27 resurrected saints were instrumental in evangelizing their own people in that brief time, dedicated especially to the Jews FIRST.

SANTOSO · Oct 30, 2021

144 Thousand in Revelations 7

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That's 666 YEARS, folks

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Well-Known Member

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Well-Known Member

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Well-Known Member

That's 666 YEARS, folks

Amillennialist

That's 666 YEARS, folks

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

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Scripture is God's word, Science is God's works

That's 666 YEARS, folks

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