The Temoral Law

Abaxvahl · Aug 27, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Arr there you go. So you do not keep God's 4th commandment. So your man-made teaching and traditions break the commandments of God according to the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9.

I say I'm red and you say I'm blue. Same thing is happening here.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 27, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
I say I'm red and you say I'm blue. Same thing is happening here.

Not quite. I see in our discussion I say, only scripture is the standard of truth that we are to live by *Romans 3:4; 2 Timothy 3:15-16; Matthew 4:4. You say no, the teachings and traditions of men that are not supported by the scriptures are what we are to live by. The better question therefore is who should we believe and follow in your view, God or man when according to the scriptures only God's Word is the only true rule of faith that we should believe and follow and live by according to *Romans 3:4; Acts of the Apostles 5:29; Romans 10:17; Matthew 4:4? This is where I see our disagreement is, what about you?

RandyPNW · Aug 28, 2021

.Jeremiah. said:
Why would heaven and earth = universe?

There are many more plausible explanations.

Heaven + Earth = Universe. Makes sense to me!

RandyPNW · Aug 28, 2021

Abaxvahl said:
If I have understood you I think you're correct, although here is another proof: "Heaven and Earth" refer to the Temple which was destroyed. For clearly some parts of the Covenant Law have passed away, therefore "Heaven and Earth" have passed away, but how could this be? See here:

In the last 20 years there has been widespread recognition that in both the biblical and post-biblical periods the Temple is invested with a set of cosmological meanings: the Temple stands at the centre of the universe; it is the place from which creation began; it is the meeting point of heaven and earth -- the 'Gate of Heaven'; it is the place where, at the end of days, as at the dawn of creation, the forces of chaos would be defeated and, most importantly for our purposes, it is a miniature version of the whole universe -- a microcosm of heaven and earth. (Fletcher-Louis, "Jesus, the Temple and the Dissolution of Heaven and Earth", Apocalyptic in History and Tradition, 123)

See also Josephus as a witness it was called "Heaven and Earth" in Jesus' day:

This proportion of the measures of the tabernacle proved to be an imitation of the system of the world; for that third part thereof which was within the four pillars, to which the priests where not admitted, is, as it were, a heaven peculiar to God. But the space of the twenty cubits is, as it were, land [ge, also translatable as 'earth'] and sea, on which men live, and so this part is peculiar to the priests only....When Moses distinguished the tabernacle into three parts, and allowed two of them to the priests, as a place accessible and common, he denoted the land and the sea, these being of general access to all; but he set apart the third division for God, because heaven is inaccessible to men." (Jewish Antiquities, 3.6.4[123], 3.7.7[181])

Back to Fletcher-Louis (who provide other contemporary sources in the book above, not just Josephus but it is proven to be common):

There are, I suggest, three interlocking referents in the expression 'until heaven and earth pass away' at 5:18d: (1) the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in AD 70 confirming the obsolescence of the Old Covenant; (2) Jesus' death and resurrection confirming the institution of the New Covenant and its messianic Torah; (3) Jesus' life, ministry and teaching as the embodiment of the new creation and the setting-up of the messianic Torah which His new community follows.

It seems now that when the close parallel to Matthew 5:18 at 24:35 refers to the passing away of heaven and earth and endurance of Jesus' words, the first of the three referents in the former text is to the forefront. With the temple cult gone, Jewish Christians should not feel its loss since they still had Jesus' teaching. (Fletcher-Louis, "The destruction of the temple and the relativization of the Old Covenant", `The reader must understand': Eschatology in Bible and theology, 163)

The transformation of the world, the end of an age, the making of a New and Eternal Covenant, the redemption of human nature in Christ, and the end of "Heaven and Earth" in the sense of the Temple have occurred, which confirms that we are not bound to the Mosaic Law according to the flesh but we observe God's commands "in spirit and in truth," the law is good when used lawfully and that is the historic Christian practice. Sabbatarians are not doing that but act like fleshly Jews, and see what St. Theophylact says about taking the Law in such a fleshly manner:

(Commenting on Matthew 3:3): "The way", that is, the highway, means the Gospel. The "paths" are the ordinances of the law, which are well-trodden and ancient. He is saying, therefore, ' 'Prepare yourselves for the evangelic life, the life that is lived according to the Gospel, and make the commandments of the law straight, that is, make them spiritual.'' For the Spirit is straight and right. So then, when you see a Jew who understands the content of the law in a fleshly manner, you may say, "This man has not made straight the paths, '' that is, he does not understand the law spiritually.

Taking the Law in the correct way is essential, it is one of the recurrent themes in the NT.

That was very interesting! Thankyou. I don't think Jesus referred to the Temple, but it certainly may have been in the back of his mind.

Certainly the temple was many things to the Jew, and a representation of the universe of God's dwelling with Man is certainly one of them. Wonderful bit of information!

RandyPNW · Aug 28, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
According to the scriptures, God's Word does not teach a doctrine of lawlessness (without law) even the very scripture your quoting from Jesus in Matthew 5:17-20 says Jesus did not come to abolish the law he came to fulfill it. That means he came to fulfill all the prophecies that pointed to him as the coming Messiah and God's sacrifice as for the sins of the world *John 1:29; 36 which the old covenant sacrificial laws of the Levitical Priesthood all pointed to (shadow laws for remission of sins - See Hebrews 7:1-25; Hebrews 8:1-13; Hebrews 9:1-27 and Hebrews 10:1-22). It is these laws that Christ fulfilled and are continued in Him under the new covenant. As well as the above Jesus fulfilled, (that is obeyed not abolished) Gods' ten commandments which according to the scriptures is the standard of all righteousness *Psalms 119:172 so that he could perfectly atone for our sins. In the new covenant God's 10 commandments has the same role it always had and according to the new covenant scriptures that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to these same new covenant scriptures if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11 as the very definition of sin in the new covenant is breaking Gods' law (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20) and not believing and following what God's Word says *Romans 14:23. Of course then according to the scriptures this also includes Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-11. According to the scriptures from John in 1 John 2:3-4 those who teach the false doctrine of lawlessness (without law) are lying and the truth is not in them and John goes on to state that sin (breaking God's law) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. You may want to reconsider your teachings as they are not biblical and not supported in the scriptures.

Take Care.

You had me all the way up until you began to teach Sabbath observance. Sorry, I can't go that far. The 10 Commandments do sort of epitomize the Moral Law, which is universal and eternal for Man. However, it is a subset of the Law of Moses, which is a covenant, now displaced by the New Covenant.

So if we are to understand God's Moral Law under the New Covenant, we can learn from the 10 Commandments, but we don't slavishly obey them as if we were under the Law of Moses. That covenant has passed away.

What has not passed away is the need to live in the image of God. And the 10 Commandments do a good job of explaining the kind of Moral Law living in God's image means. We are to love others, and to love God above all.

The difference in the covenants is plain to see in the change in priesthood, as the author of Hebrews points out. Jesus was the lone priest of the New Covenant, the one apostle of this covenant. And he did nothing that the Aaronic and Levitical priests did, except complete what they began.

They provided temporary covering for Israel whereas Jesus provided eternal covering for Israel. So you're right about Jesus' fulfillment of the OT typologies of his eternal atonement for sin.

RandyPNW · Aug 28, 2021

TzephanYahu said:
So with what you said in mind, what's your opinion of Matthew 5:19, which is spoken in the same context.

For the Messiah was upholding the Lawand teaching it then Matt 5:19 flows naturally. But with your interpretation I'm struggling to see how it fits. Unless I'm missing something..

Here's what I told a Jewish person earlier, who asked the same question:

I spent 10 years on Usenet, with a good portion of that time talking with a Reform Jew about this passage.

Rob Strom, who I believe helped start alt.messianic, to keep Christians from trying to evangelize Jews on Jewish websites, believed that Jesus was a good Jew who, based on this passage, indicated that the Law was eternal, until the heavens pass away.

I thought it was a pretty strong argument, but misconceived. The critical element is that 1) it was recorded by Matthew, a Christian who believed the Law was fulfilled at the Cross, and 2) Jesus said he had come to "fulfill it."

This was not Jesus coming to confirm 613 regulations that didn't need to be confirmed. Rather, this was Messiah coming to accomplish in completion things that under the Law were incomplete. Temporal atonement would become eternal atonement.

Therefore, Jesus was *not* saying that the longevity of the Law was to be compared with the longevity of the universe. Rather, it was sort of using the phrase as an oath, indicating that "if the sky could fall then I will fail to fulfill the Law."

In other words, the universe may be temporal, but it is sturdy and of very long duration. The Messianic completion of the Law will be even more sure than that, and it will confirm the validity of the Law, with all its regulations, including defining the purpose of every requirement.

The Liturgist · Aug 28, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
Arr there you go. So you do not keep God's 4th commandment. So your man-made teaching and tradition has led you to break the commandment of God according to the very Words of Jesus in Matthew 15:3-9 right? You just proved my point can you see it now? Does a Jew in the Spirit under God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 not keep God's commandments *Romans 2:28-29; Romans 3:31? In the new covenant do you believe we are now free to lie, steal, murder, commit adultery now? The scriptures teach the opposite of what your claiming here. *Romans 13:8-10; Matthew 22:36-30; 1 John 2:3-4; James 2:10-11; 1 John 3:4; 1 John 3:6-10; Romans 3:31; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14.

Actually he does keep the 4th commandment with regards to its true meaning. The Roman Catholic Church observes the Paschal Vigil on Holy Saturday, commemorating the repose of Christ our God in the tomb. This is what the Fourth Commandment is actually about if we read the Old Testament exegetically from a Christological perspective, as our Lord indicates we should read it at the end of the Gospel According to Luke.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 28, 2021

The Liturgist said:
Actually he does keep the 4th commandment with regards to its true meaning. The Roman Catholic Church observes the Paschal Vigil on Holy Saturday, commemorating the repose of Christ our God in the tomb. This is what the Fourth Commandment is actually about if we read the Old Testament exegetically from a Christological perspective, as our Lord indicates we should read it at the end of the Gospel According to Luke.

According to the scriptures, God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 begins sunset Friday our time and finishes sunset Saturday our time biblical time *Genesis 1; Leviticus 23:32. According to the scriptures this time is God's holy day of rest where none of our own work is to be done. That means no buying, no selling, no shopping, no business, no secular work, no domestic work of any kind is to be done. Your friend already said he did keep the Sabbath according to the scriptures now you are trying to say that he does? That is not truthful neither is it biblical. None of God's 10 commandments are "shadow laws" they are all moral laws according to the scriptures that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 but point backwards to the finished work of creation *Genesis 2:1-3.

Take Care.

The Liturgist · Aug 28, 2021

LoveGodsWord said:
That is not true at all and neither is it biblical. According to the scriptures, God's 4th commandment *Exodus 20:8-11 begins sunset Friday our time and finishes sunset Saturday our time biblical time *Genesis 1; Leviticus 23:32. According to the scriptures this time is God's holy day of rest where none of our own work is to be done. That means no buying, no selling, no shopping, no business, no secular work, no domestic work of any kind is to be done. Your friend already said he did keep the Sabbath according to the scriptures now you are trying to say that he does? That is not truthful neither is it biblical. None of God's 10 commandments are "shadow laws" they are all moral laws according to the scriptures that give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4 and if we break anyone of them according to James we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11. God's 4th commandment according to the scriptures does not point forward to things to come *Colossians 2:17 but point backwards to the finished work of creation *Genesis 2:1-3.

Take Care.

According to St. Paul in Galatians we are no longer subject to the exoteric meaning of the Jewish Law. Thus, the esoteric meaning of the Decalogue, the Christological context, is what matters.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 28, 2021

RandyPNW said:
You had me all the way up until you began to teach Sabbath observance. Sorry, I can't go that far. The 10 Commandments do sort of epitomize the Moral Law, which is universal and eternal for Man. However, it is a subset of the Law of Moses, which is a covenant, now displaced by the New Covenant.

So if we are to understand God's Moral Law under the New Covenant, we can learn from the 10 Commandments, but we don't slavishly obey them as if we were under the Law of Moses. That covenant has passed away.

What has not passed away is the need to live in the image of God. And the 10 Commandments do a good job of explaining the kind of Moral Law living in God's image means. We are to love others, and to love God above all.

The difference in the covenants is plain to see in the change in priesthood, as the author of Hebrews points out. Jesus was the lone priest of the New Covenant, the one apostle of this covenant. And he did nothing that the Aaronic and Levitical priests did, except complete what they began.

They provided temporary covering for Israel whereas Jesus provided eternal covering for Israel. So you're right about Jesus' fulfillment of the OT typologies of his eternal atonement for sin.

What you believe and follow is between you and God. Please follow the scriptures that I am sharing with you through to see if what I am sharing with you is true or not, as they will be a blessing to you. In the new covenant as posted earlier God's 10 commandments have the same role it always had and according to the new covenant scriptures that is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. According to these same new covenant scriptures if we break anyone of God's 10 commandments we stand guilty before God of sin *James 2:10-11 as the very definition of sin in the new covenant is breaking Gods' law (1 John 3:4; James 2:10-11; Romans 7:7; Romans 3:20) and not believing and following what God's Word says *Romans 14:23. Of course then according to the scriptures this also includes Gods' 4th commandment which is one of God's 10 commandments that give us the knowledge of what sin is when broken *Exodus 20:8-11. According to the scriptures from John in 1 John 2:3-4 those who teach the false doctrine of lawlessness (without law) are lying and the truth is not in them and John goes on to state that sin (breaking God's law) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil in 1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12 and Revelation 22:14. You may want to reconsider your teachings as they are not biblical and not supported in the scriptures.

I do not judge you or anyone else here. The word of God we accept or reject however according to the scriptures becomes our judge come judgement day according to the very words of Jesus in John 12:47-48. According to the scriptures sin is defined as breaking anyone of God's 10 commandments *James 2:10-11 and not believing and following Gods' Word *Romans 14:23. In times of ignorance according to the scriptures God winks at but when God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word calls all men everywhere to believe and follow what Gods' word says *Acts of the Apostles 5:29; James 4:17. If God gives us a knowledge of the truth of His Word and we then choose to reject it in order to continue in known unrepentant sin then according to the scriptures there remains no more sacrifice for sin but a fearful looking forward to of the judgement to come *Hebrews 10:26-27. Those who continue in known unrepentant sin therefore do not enter the kingdom of heaven because they reject the gift of God's dear son and count the blood of the covenant an unholy thing doing despite to the Spirit of God's grace *Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-39; Hebrews 6:4-8.

According to the scriptures Jesus says unless we are born again into God's new covenant promise we cannot enter into the Kingdom of heaven *John 3:3-7; Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 26:24-27; Hebrews 8:10-12. We need to be born of the Spirit because we commit sin (break Gods' commandments) *1 John 3:6. As you correctly posted we do not slavishly seek to keep the commandments of God in the new covenant because Gods' new covenant promise is to give us a new heart to believe and follow what God's Word says (Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 26:24-27; Hebrews 8:10-12) in all those who through faith (Romans 3:31) have been born again *1 John 3:6-9 through love as love is the fulfilling and doing what God's Word says *Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:8-10; James 2:8-12; 1 John 5:2-3 and is why Jesus says "If you love me keep my commandments" in John 14:15 and we abide in His love by doing so in John 15:10.

According to the scriptures dear friend, BABYLON has fallen *Revelation 14:8; Revelation 17:1-6 and departed Gods' Word in order to follow her own teachings and God is calling all of His people where ever they might be to come out from following man-made teachings and traditions that break the commandments of God back to the pure Word of God *Revelations 18:1-5. According to the scriptures Gods' people are in every church living up to all the light that God has given them *John 10:16. But according to Jesus the hour is coming and now is that the true worshipers will worship the father in Spirit and in truth. God is a Spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in Spirit and in truth *John 4:23-24. God is calling us back to His Word to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Gods' sheep therefore will hear His voice (the Word of God) and follow him. Those who do not hear and follow according to Jesus are not His sheep *John 10:26-27.

May God bless you as you seek Him through His Word.

LoveGodsWord · Aug 28, 2021

The Liturgist said:
According to St. Paul in Galatians we are no longer subject to the exoteric meaning of the Jewish Law. Thus, the esoteric meaning of the Decalogue, the Christological context, is what matters.

According to the scriptures, the shadow laws written by Moses are not the same as God's moral law written on tables of stone. That was the work of God alone *Exodus 32:16 spoken by God alone to His people *Exodus 20:1-17 and written with the finger of God alone on two tables of stone *Exodus 31:18 that according to what Paul says in the new covenant scriptures give us the knowledge of good and evil; sin and righteousness under the new covenant (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7). This is why Paul says faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes Gods' law in Romans 3:31 under the new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 and the shadow laws of Moses like circumcision are nothing and uncircumcision are nothing but the keeping of the commandments of God in *1 Corinthians 7:19 which is God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34; Ezekiel 36:24-27. Paul also says there is no such thing as Jewish law. As Gods' Words are for Gods' people and as Paul says that a Jew is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God *Romans 2:28-29. This is God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27 that all who believe and follow God's Word enter into by faith that works by love and being born again through the Spirit of God *Romans 3:31; 1 John 3:6-9; 1 John 2:3-4; Romans 13:8-10.

Take Care

TzephanYahu · Aug 28, 2021

RandyPNW said:
This was not Jesus coming to confirm 613 regulations that didn't need to be confirmed. Rather, this was Messiah coming to accomplish in completion things that under the Law were incomplete. Temporal atonement would become eternal atonement.

Thanks for your reply.

Atonement is only a part of the Torah though, right. Therefore, the rules for living holy and righteous still apply - if we want to live by the NT definitions of living holy and righteous. And how do we know how not to sin unless the Law tells us what is sin?

I think "613" is a poor summary of Torah as well. Those who want to follow the Torah this way will be "under the Law" as they seek to divide Torah into a ticklist, whereas Torah seems more fluid than this. For example, we read the Beatitudes as one fluid related passage, we don't break it down as "the 54 laws of Messiah".

Alas the Torah has such bad press in Christianity today, though it didn't to the first Christians and early church. It's great to see more saints awaken to it in these last days though. It's surely a sign of His return.

.Jeremiah. · Aug 28, 2021

RandyPNW said:
Heaven + Earth = Universe. Makes sense to me!

Then it must be so.

I’m curious, where is heaven?

And where is the earth?

Soyeong · Aug 28, 2021

RandyPNW said:
The Law was temporary and fulfilled in time.

Matt 5.17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."

The clause "until heaven and earth disappear" does not mean that the Law will remain in effect until that the universe disappears. It means that it is more certain that the Law must be fulfilled by Christ than the certainty that the universe will continue.

How do I know that? The same version is worded in a slightly different way elsewhere, indicating not that the universe is eternal, and therefore the Law is eternal.

On the contrary, it is stated clearly that the universe is, in fact, in a temporary mode until it is created new. Therefore, the Law is not being equated with the eternity of the Universe. On the contrary, it is being asserted that the Law is more certain to be fulfilled by Christ, in time, than the certainty that the universe will continue forever. The universe may not continue forever in its present mode. But the Law will most certainly be fulfilled in time, at the cross of Christ.

Luke 16.17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

Matt 13.31 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The idea concerns the atonement of Christ being more important to be fulfilled than the need for the universe to continue in its present state forever.

Luke 12.33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys.

Some people who want the covenant of Law to be eternal point to the often-used phrase, "it is for all your generations." But it was a contract in perpetuity, but not a contract guaranteed for eternity. Once a contract is broken, and it was a conditional contract, the contract ceases to exist. It was for all of Israel's generations, as long as they remained in compliance with the terms of the covenant.

There is a sense that Divine Law is eternal, stemming from the creation of Man "in God's image and likeness." But this is generic law, which does last forever. This concept of "law" is to be distinguished from the *covenant* of Law, which was designed to only temporarily establish a relationship between God and Israel until eternal atonement could take place, establishing an eternal relationship between them.

In Revelation 21, it speaks about there being a new heaven and a new earth, so Jesus was saying that not the least part would disappear from the law until this time, though that is not the same as saying that they will disappear at that time. For example, Jesus saying that he will always be with us even until the end of the age is not implying that he will leave us at the end of the age. The reasons that God has for choosing to give the laws that He gave teach us about His nature, so the only way that those laws for how to express God's eternal nature can be abolished is if God is abolished first.

The problem with idolatry is that it is worshiping a false image of God, so worshiping Jesus would be idolatry if he was not the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. So the rejection of any of God's laws is the rejection a God whose nature that is described by those laws and is therefore committing the idolatry of worshiping a false image of God.

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

Soyeong said:
In Revelation 21, it speaks about there being a new heaven and a new earth, so Jesus was saying that not the least part would disappear from the law until this time, though that is not the same as saying that they will disappear at that time. For example, Jesus saying that he will always be with us even until the end of the age is not implying that he will leave us at the end of the age. The reasons that God has for choosing to give the laws that He gave teach us about His nature, so the only way that those laws for how to express God's eternal nature can be abolished is if God is abolished first.

The problem with idolatry is that it is worshiping a false image of God, so worshiping Jesus would be idolatry if he was not the exact image of God's nature (Hebrews 1:3), which he expressed through his actions by living in sinless obedience to the Mosaic Law. So the rejection of any of God's laws is the rejection a God whose nature that is described by those laws and is therefore committing the idolatry of worshiping a false image of God.

You're right that Jesus is God and that we do not commit idolatry in worshiping him. However, that does not prove the Law remains in effect as a covenant. That covenant was broken, which was symbolized by the tearing of the temple veil. Nobody, including Israel, is under the Law as a covenant any longer.

This is not to say there is no Divine Law, nor that God does not continue to exist, along with His Son, Jesus. Their continuance implies the continuance of Divine Law, but not the continuance of the covenant of the Law.

As my argument goes, Jesus was *not* saying that the Law of Moses would continue until the end of the universe. No, he was saying that his particular fulfillment of the Law, which was on the Cross, was more certain to take place than the universe's continuation. God found it more important to redeem mankind than to just let the universe continue endlessly.

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

.Jeremiah. said:
Then it must be so.

I’m curious, where is heaven?

And where is the earth?

The earth is in heaven, and the heavens are the universe, including the sky above the earth, outer space, and the place of God's dwelling within this space.

Soyeong · Aug 29, 2021

RandyPNW said:
You're right that Jesus is God and that we do not commit idolatry in worshiping him. However, that does not prove the Law remains in effect as a covenant. That covenant was broken, which was symbolized by the tearing of the temple veil. Nobody, including Israel, is under the Law as a covenant any longer.

This is not to say there is no Divine Law, nor that God does not continue to exist, along with His Son, Jesus. Their continuance implies the continuance of Divine Law, but not the continuance of the covenant of the Law.

As my argument goes, Jesus was *not* saying that the Law of Moses would continue until the end of the universe. No, he was saying that his particular fulfillment of the Law, which was on the Cross, was more certain to take place than the universe's continuation. God found it more important to redeem mankind than to just let the universe continue endlessly.

The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on His nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any laws that He has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. For example, it was sinful to commit idolatry in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes the way to act in accordance with or against God's eternal nature. The laws that are included as part of God's covenants reveal what has always been in accordance or against God's eternal nature, but they do not change it. For example, the only way for it to become no longer against God's nature to commit adultery is if God is no longer righteous.

Perhaps if Jesus had said that it is easier for the least part of the law to disappear than then for heaven and earth to pass away, then our argument might have a leg to stand on, but that is not what he said. In any case, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, and he warned that those who relaxed the least part of the law or taught others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning essentially the same thing as abolishing it, and saying that Jesus abolished any laws is calling him a lair and disregarding his warning.

After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then immediately proceeded to do that six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended. In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that Jesus did on the cross. Likewise, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the law of Christ, which has nothing to do with causing it to not be eternal.

RandyPNW · Aug 29, 2021

Soyeong said:
The way to act in accordance with God's nature is straightforwardly based on His nature, not on any particular covenant, and God's nature is eternal, so any laws that He has ever given for how to act in accordance with His nature are eternally valid regardless of which covenant someone is under, if any. For example, it was sinful to commit idolatry in Genesis 39:9, long before the Mosaic Covenant was made, during it, and it remains sinful after it has become obsolete, so there is nothing about any number of covenants being made or becoming obsolete that changes the way to act in accordance with or against God's eternal nature. The laws that are included as part of God's covenants reveal what has always been in accordance or against God's eternal nature, but they do not change it. For example, the only way for it to become no longer against God's nature to commit adultery is if God is no longer righteous.

I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree with it--I believe the covenant is integrally linked with the requirements God has for us. If He never made a covenant with Israel, then they could try to keep moral law all day long, and it would end in eternal damnation. If Jesus never made a new covenant with his Church, then following Jesus' morality wouldn't make a bit of difference in the eternal stretch of things.

So a covenant was critical with keeping God's laws of morality. And I wouldn't separate them. Moral Law must be understood in connection with God's current covenant because otherwise God will not recognize the value of our moral observances. Morality doesn't even imitate God properly if God isn't in the person, providing the virtue itself!

Soyeong said:
Perhaps if Jesus had said that it is easier for the least part of the law to disappear than then for heaven and earth to pass away, then our argument might have a leg to stand on, but that is not what he said. In any case, Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law in contrast with saying that he came not to abolish it, and he warned that those who relaxed the least part of the law or taught others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom, so fulfilling the law should not be interpreted as meaning essentially the same thing as abolishing it, and saying that Jesus abolished any laws is calling him a lair and disregarding his warning.

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, as he said. God can never fail to keep His part of an agreement. On the other hand, Israel could and did fail their part of the agreement, and the covenant of Law was annulled, essentially by Israel's failure--not God's.

Again, Jesus was not making an equivalence between the duration of the heavens and the duration of even a part of the Law. He was rather stating that it was more important for Jesus himself to "fulfill" the Law than for the heavens to continue indefinitely without that happening.

Soyeong said:
After Jesus said that he came to fulfill the law, he then immediately proceeded to do that six times throughout the rest of the chapter by teaching how to correctly obey it as it was originally intended.

Yes, while the Law remained in effect, and the covenant had not yet been irretrievably broken, Jesus taught that the Law was not a purely external morality, but more, a spiritual morality, requiring a sincere connection to God Himself.

As a result, a person could not pretend friendship with someone while internally planning on how to murder him! True friendship requires sincerity from the heart, and that comes when we connect to God's Spirit, consciously or unconsciously.

Soyeong said:
In Galatians 5:14, loving our neighbor fulfills the entire law, so it refers to something that countless people have done, not to something unique that Jesus did on the cross. Likewise, in Galatians 6:2, bearing one another's burdens fulfills the law of Christ, which has nothing to do with causing it to not be eternal.

Moral Law in Christianity has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. And Jesus was addressing the Law of Moses when he spoke of how important, in the long-running universe, it was to complete it in a new covenant.

So you're comparing two different things, although they can be compared. These are two different covenants and yet the same divine morality.

But morality connected to the 1st covenant required 613 things, which are not required in the NT, as you ably pointed out. Just loving God and our neighbor fulfills all of them without any need to engage in rituals of atonement already fulfilled in Jesus.

Soyeong · Aug 29, 2021

RandyPNW said:
I do understand what you're saying, but I disagree with it--I believe the covenant is integrally linked with the requirements God has for us. If He never made a covenant with Israel, then they could try to keep moral law all day long, and it would end in eternal damnation. If Jesus never made a new covenant with his Church, then following Jesus' morality wouldn't make a bit of difference in the eternal stretch of things.

So a covenant was critical with keeping God's laws of morality. And I wouldn't separate them. Moral Law must be understood in connection with God's current covenant because otherwise God will not recognize the value of our moral observances. Morality doesn't even imitate God properly if God isn't in the person, providing the virtue itself!

In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was saved by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else was before the Mosaic Covenant made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were justified through faith, so I don't see a reason to think that anyone needed to be under the Mosaic Covenant in order to avoid eternal damnation. The same Father who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, who lived in sinless obedience to it, so there is no difference in morality. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).

Jesus did not come to abolish the Law, as he said. God can never fail to keep His part of an agreement. On the other hand, Israel could and did fail their part of the agreement, and the covenant of Law was annulled, essentially by Israel's failure--not God's.

It was against God's law to commit adultery before God made the Mosaic Covenant, so there is nothing about it being included in the Mosaic Covenant that means that it becomes obsolete after the Mosaic Covenant has become obsolete, and the same goes for God's other laws. In Hebrews 8:10, the New Covenant still involves following God's law, so the Mosaic Covenant becoming obsolete in 8:13 does not mean that God's eternal righteousness or any of His eternal righteous laws became obsolete along with it. In Psalms 119:160, all of God's righteous laws are eternal.

Again, Jesus was not making an equivalence between the duration of the heavens and the duration of even a part of the Law. He was rather stating that it was more important for Jesus himself to "fulfill" the Law than for the heavens to continue indefinitely without that happening.

You need to reject what Jesus actually said and make up something other than what was stated in order to hold your position.

Yes, while the Law remained in effect, and the covenant had not yet been irretrievably broken, Jesus taught that the Law was not a purely external morality, but more, a spiritual morality, requiring a sincere connection to God Himself.

As a result, a person could not pretend friendship with someone while internally planning on how to murder him! True friendship requires sincerity from the heart, and that comes when we connect to God's Spirit, consciously or unconsciously.

In Exodus 20:6, God wanted His people to love Him and obey His commandments, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, and there are many other verses in both the OT and the NT that connect our love for God with our obedience to His commandments, so that has always been a matter of the heart, and God has always disdained it when His people honored Him with their lips while their hearts were far from Him (Isaiah 29:13).

Moral Law in Christianity has nothing to do with the Law of Moses. And Jesus was addressing the Law of Moses when he spoke of how important, in the long-running universe, it was to complete it in a new covenant.

So you're comparing two different things, although they can be compared. These are two different covenants and yet the same divine morality.

If there are laws that God has given that are not moral laws, then it can be moral to disobey God, but I do not see any grounds for thinking that it can ever be moral to disobey God, and in order for someone to think that there are instances where it is moral to disobey God, they would be claiming to have greater moral knowledge than God. Rather, morality is in regard to what we ought to do and we ought to obey God, so all of God's laws are inherently moral laws.

But morality connected to the 1st covenant required 613 things, which are not required in the NT, as you ably pointed out. Just loving God and our neighbor fulfills all of them without any need to engage in rituals of atonement already fulfilled in Jesus.

Again, the New Covenant still involves following God's law. "To fulfill the law" means "to cause God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be” (NAS Greek Lexicon pleroo 2c3). Again, fulfilling the law has nothing to do with causing us to no longer need to obey any of God's laws, but rather it is showing us how to obey them. In 1 Peter 1:16, we are told to have a holy conduct for God is holy, which is a quote from Leviticus where God was giving instructions for how to have a holy conduct, so following those laws is acting in accordance with God's eternal holiness, and those laws can't be abolished without first abolishing God's eternal holiness.

If someone's obedience to the command to love is not inclusive of obedience to God's other commands, then they are not treating it as being the fulfillment of the other commands. For example, obedience to the command to help the poor is part of what it means to obey the command to love our neighbor, and if someone's obedience to the command to love their neighbor is not inclusive of it, then they would have an incomplete understanding of what it means to love our neighbor. What Jesus was commanding us to do when he quoted the command to love God with all of our heart and soul does not mean something different than what God was commanding the Israelites to do when He commanded them to love Him with all of their heart and soul.

RandyPNW · Aug 30, 2021

Soyeong said:
In Genesis 6:8-9, Noah found grace in the eyes of God, he was a righteous man, and he walked with God, so he was saved by grace through faith by the same means as everyone else was before the Mosaic Covenant made, during it, and after it has become obsolete, Likewise, Abraham and everyone else listed in Hebrews 11 were justified through faith, so I don't see a reason to think that anyone needed to be under the Mosaic Covenant in order to avoid eternal damnation. The same Father who gave the law to Moses also sent Jesus, who lived in sinless obedience to it, so there is no difference in morality. Jesus spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey the Mosaic Law by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything that he spent his ministry teaching, but rather the New Covenant still involves following God's law (Jeremiah 31:33).

So what you're doing is defining "fulfillment of the Law" as "keeping the Law." The reality is, the Law was a kind of prophecy indicating the need for final atonement through Christ. Jesus "fulfilled the Law" on the Cross, and not by "keeping the Law" like any other Israeli.

Your sense of keeping the Law distances itself from the covenants which God plainly made necessary. You indicate people are saved before and during the OT system, which flies in the face of the biblical need for the New Covenant, in which Christ made eternal atonement for sin. If this was necessary, how could men be saved "by faith" before Christ even made eternal atonement for their sins?

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