Has a Born Again Christian Passed From Death To Life?

Minister Monardo said:

The entire narrative of the Bible is that repentance, or a return to God brought about spiritual
revival. The other half of that truth is that usually within one generation they fell back away, clearly
indicating that they lacked the ability to sustain the renewed spiritual state of being right with God.
If a spiritual rebirth requires more than repentance, then why is that all that John the baptist, Jesus
and his apostles preached? Repentance and remission of sin resulted in spiritual rebirth. Receiving
and abiding in the Holy Spirit sustains this activity from a heavenly source: "the wisdom from above"
for example. Jesus distinguished flesh from spirit and the need to discern spirit. He also distinguished
between earthly and heavenly. I am not confusing the two. The subject is spiritual, and yet:
John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? (Not speaking of flesh vs. spirit, but perspective of above or below)
Nicodemus had knowledge of spiritual things from an earthly perspective. This is not the same as saying "that which is born of flesh is flesh". John the baptist is making the same point later in the
same chapter.
27 John answered and said, A man can receive nothing unless it has been given to him from heaven.
31 He who comes from above is above all; he who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of the earth.
He who comes from heaven is above all.
32 And what He has seen and heard, that He testifies; and no one receives His testimony.
33 He who has received His testimony has certified that God is true.

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I disagree with your assessment of what Jesus and John was teaching. Just because the command to repent and believe are told to people, doesn't automatically mean that spiritual rebirth comes after that. I think you are assuming something that scripture isn't saying.

We can assume that if someone is following Jesus, that they are born again, because they are bearing the fruit of repentance and faith. 1 John 5:1 "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God." So in this vein, it speaks of being born again before the result of repentance is shown.

It is saying that if a person believes, they "are born" of God, which means it's already done, a past event. And a person has to believe first before repenting, otherwise their repentance is nothing but a religious exercise. So the crux of Christianity is on faith in Christ, not on repentance, because repentance is a fruit, or result, of one believing in Christ. And this is the context of redeemed individuals.

Finally, you talk about the "they" of the Israelite nation, as if it's the same thing as what individuals do, but that is an unfair comparison, like comparing apples to oranges. God's dealing with the Israelites under the old covenant has similarities to His dealing with individuals under the new covenant, but it's not the same. The similarity is that even under the old covenant, people were redeemed by faith in the Messiah who was to come, and those people were the remnant of individual believers, some of whom are listed in Heb. 11.

I don't know where you are getting your ideas, but quoting a few verses doesn't cut the mustard. Your argument is not convincing, because the Christian faith is not that complicated. I think that Titus 3:5 is very clear, and I think the vast majority of theologians have it right.

Minister Monardo said:

That is exactly how it is being used, in both places where the word actually appears.
Titus 3:
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward mankind appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Again, you and "all of Christianity" can take Paul's words and try to apply them to yourself as
an individual, but he did not write that way. His concerns always addressed The Body". The only
cult that continues to pervade in a church of otherwise orthodoxy is the "cult of individuality".

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I disagree. The church is made up of individuals whom the Lord calls out by name. It is true that Paul wrote to churches and to people in general, but his writing doesn't apply to a faceless "body." It applies to each and every individual in that church, and in every church that exists. I disagree with your "corporate" idea. Christ redeemed individuals, not a faceless corporation. In John 17, He prayed for "those who would believe in Him" as a result of the apostles' preaching, and those people are individuals.

Minister Monardo said:

Here you are just wrong. All spiritual things have a heavenly and an earthly perspective.
For example, many feel they have been born again in accepting Christ, but they have a very personal agenda, and are very self-seeking in their walk. If they had a heavenly perspective towards their
"spiritual awakening", they would know and understand that "they are no longer their own,
but have been bought with a price". Perhaps you have read that in the scriptures.

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I disagree with your assessment of what you are talking about. "Spiritual things" is not a perspective. When Jesus and the apostles spoke of perspective, they said things like "see," "look," "hear," and such. When Jesus said "things," He is speaking of actual things.

"The wind blows where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from or where it is going" - this is an earthly thing.
"So is everyone who is born of the Spirit" - this is a heavenly thing.
These are things, that is, happenings, events. Not perspective.

Minister Monardo said:

How did you manage to disagree? Do you reject election?

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No, I'm just trying to figure out what you are trying to say. Pardon my misunderstanding here.

Minister Monardo said:

I don't know what "group redemption" means. I am saying that as the Holy Spirit leads each of us
individually, that transformation or regeneration must include the integration into the whole. For
example, any spiritual gift you manifest is for the edification of all, not your own self-promotion.
Therefore, if you take a "heavenly perspective" of regeneration of every individual, you may only
see your own spiritual growth, and perhaps of few other close associates, the Lord sees His bride
being prepared, without spot or wrinkle. Therefore, regeneration, and your understanding of it,
is bigger than you. The view from above can only be towards His Purpose, "God All, In All".

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Ok, so then you do agree that regeneration is on individuals. I wish you had said that some time ago. Before, you spoke as if regeneration was only on a corporation. So then I guess I misunderstood you?

Minister Monardo said:

Heavenly Perspective vs earthly perspective ultimately affects how and why you see yourself.
John 9:
39 And Jesus said, For judgment I have come into this world, that those who do not see may see,
and that those who see may be made blind.
40 Then some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these words, and said to Him,
Are we blind also?
41 Jesus said to them, If you were blind, you would have no sin; but now you say,
We see. Therefore your sin remains.
These Pharisees had an inaccurate assessment of themselves based on an earthly perspective
in which they were already righteous. This is why Paul teaches:
Colossians 3:
1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is,
sitting at the right hand of God.
2 Set your mind on things above, not on things on the earth.
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.

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I don't know what you're driving at. Perspective - eyes to see and ears to hear (the heavenly) - is not the same thing as a heavenly event, that is, being born again (a spiritual transition from spiritual death to spiritual life). My point was that when Jesus spoke of heavenly things, He was talking about spiritual rebirth.

Minister Monardo said:

My position repeatedly was that to ONLY see regeneration of the individual without the "big
picture" of the body of Christ is to misunderstand much of the apostolic teaching and limit one's
role in the church due to an overly self-centered perspective.
1 Corinthians 12:
4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all:

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Was that your assessment of what I was saying? Then that's your misunderstanding. I'm not excluding the connection between the individual and the church. I'm trying to say that first comes spiritual rebirth at the hearing of the gospel, which I am saying is regeneration. All theologians I know of use the term in this manner. Then comes involvement in the church and edification. What I have been saying repeatedly is that regeneration doesn't exclude individuals, and that Titus 3:5 is talking about individuals.
"He has saved us... by the washing of regeneration..." means that individuals are regenerated by spiritual rebirth. A church regenerated is a church that is full of regenerated individuals.

Actually Nicodemus came to faith in Him unlike the religious hypocrites Jesus condemned in Matthew 23. He was not part of that group who opposed Christ.

Nicodemus in the Bible, he is functioning in his official capacity as a member of the Sanhedrin as they consider what to do about Jesus. In John 7, some Pharisees and priests (presumably with authority to do so) sent some of the temple guard to arrest Jesus, but they return, unable to bring themselves to do it (see John 7:32–47). The guards are upbraided by the Pharisees in authority, but Nicodemus presents the opinion that Jesus should not be dismissed or condemned until they have heard from Him personally: “Does our law judge a man without first giving him a hearing and learning what he does?” (John 7:51). However, the rest of the Council rudely dismisses Nicodemus’s suggestion out of hand—they appear to have already made up their minds about Jesus.

The final mention of Nicodemus in the Bible is in John 19 after Jesus’ crucifixion. We find Nicodemus assisting Joseph of Arimathea in Jesus’ burial. Joseph is described in John as a rich man and in Mark 15:43 as a member of the Council. He is also described in John 19:38 as a disciple of Jesus, albeit a secret one because he was afraid of the Jews. Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Nicodemus brought 75 pounds of spices for use in preparing the body for burial and then assisted Joseph in wrapping the body and placing it in the tomb. The sheer amount of burial spices would seem to indicate that Nicodemus was a rich man and that he had great respect for Jesus.got?

hope this helps !!!

Minister Monardo said:

Amen, I am aware that Nicodemus proved himself with Joseph at the end, even though they were
more or less "secret disciples for fear of the Jews". He was no doubt blessed to have heard the Words of the Lord found in John 3:16, and those before and after. I would say they kind of forced his hand
at some point to make a decision. Call me Rabbi, say I am sent by God, but will you confess me as the Son of God, Lord, and Savior? Yes, and Amen, I believe that he did. I am not despising him for being a bit clueless and unrepentant that night, the disciples were just as much in over their head most of the time. I just do not trust "biblical scholar interpretations" of this or any other discourse that does not acknowledge Psalm 18, and how Jesus dealt with Pharisees throughout the Gospels, by taking His answers with a grain of salt, understanding that their questionable motives often led to obtuse answers.
I believe that I was born again by a broken and contrite heart. After decades, I can say that I have
been slowly transformed into a closer image of Him, by being broken again and again. Man's pride,
from my experience, is closely matched by spiritual laziness! The Holy Spirit works regeneration into
my spirit by discipline, and for that I remain grateful, even this week as I have been going through
some difficulties. I will bless the Lord at all times!

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And look at all the disciples who scattered at Jesus arrest and Peters denial

Minister Monardo said:

Scripture has always been saying that the Lord desires repentance, not penance. "Return to me,
and I will return to you".
2 Chronicles 7:14 If My people who are called by My name will humble themselves, and pray and seek My face, and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin and heal their land.
This was not just the message of Jesus and John the baptist to Israel, it was the message
for the apostles to give to the world.
Luke 24:
47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations,
beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And you are witnesses of these things.
Repentance and remission of sin brings the spiritual awakening to receive the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the
name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Now that the promised Holy Spirit became available, after the Ascension, the inner work
of regeneration could begin on all who received.
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three
thousand souls were added.

The disciples of Jesus Christ were born again to receive, and those who remained until the end
received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, who works regeneration in us, could not be given
until after Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father.

Acts 1:8 But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.

If no one could be born again by way of repentance and remission of sin, what was the purpose
of His earthly ministry? How could men and women be discipled? What they were waiting for was
the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the power of regeneration.
4 And being assembled together with them, He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem,
but to wait for the Promise of the Father, which, you have heard from Me;
5 for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days
from now.

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Concerning your question:

If no one could be born again by way of repentance and remission of sin, what was the purpose of His earthly ministry?

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This is nothing other than justification by law. If God is waiting until people repent before forgiving them and granting spiritual rebirth, then righteousness comes by the law, and Christ died in vain.

Jesus' ministry on earth was to call people to repentance, for sure. Yet, Paul makes it clear in Rom. 3 and 1 Cor. 2 that no one repents unless God first makes them spiritual, and this is done by spiritual rebirth which Jesus spoke of in John 3. If a person "sees" the kingdom of God, they are already in it. The kingdom can be seen from inside, by those already born again. It cannot be seen from outside in the realm of spiritual death.

The problem with the idea that an unregenerate (not born again) person can actually repent to the extent that God regards them worthy of forgiveness, is a failure to recognize the spiritual deadness of a natural (unregenerate) person described in Rom. 3:10-18. It is apparent to me that it is what you are teaching in this post.

The Bible I read teaches that only spiritual people understand and believe the gospel (and obey it first by repentance). Therefore, whoever repents and believes the gospel has already been born again, per 1 John 5:1.

Minister Monardo said:

Again, returning to John 3 and Nicodemus! Do you really believe there is some powerful message
about regeneration to be found there! John the baptist preached repent and be baptized for the remission of sin. Jesus preached "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". Did Nicodemus,
sneaking around after dark, come to the Lord to repent? Or did he come with flattering?
2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher
come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.

Nicodemus expected to have a discussion Rabbi to Rabbi, not be reconciled to the heavenly Father.
You could write a book on all the times scribes, Pharisees, Sadducees and other lawyers came to
Christ with impure motives and He twisted them around and exposed their deviousness. Now, you
and @Jesus is YHWH would have us believe that the Lord is revealing some profound truth about
regeneration (something never mentioned in the discussion), and you will explain it to me if I will
sit at your feet for the explanation. Nicodemus is clueless, and the Lord mocks him by referring to
him as "THE teacher in Israel". So if Christ says:
12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe
if I tell you heavenly things?
This clearly indicates that everything He has spoken is of earthly things, for he is not
prepared to learn of heavenly things.
7 Do not marvel that I said to you, You must be born again from above.
How could Nicodemus receive from above without godly repentance? HOW?
Psalm 51:17 The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit,
A broken and a contrite heart—These, O God, You will not despise.

If you want this bizarre exchange between the Lord and Nicodemus to shape your understanding
of earthly vs heavenly things, you are missing the real message. Do you think that John placed
this exchange right in front of the teaching of John the baptist for no reason?
Read John 3:27-36 for the real lesson. If your interpretation is consistent with what John taught,
you have right comprehension. If you want, you can guess at what Jesus meant when He said:
8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes
from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.

The FACT is that the heart of Nicodemus was not right with God at that time, and the Lord dealt shrewdly with him. This is scriptural truth!

Psalm 18:26 With the pure You will show Yourself pure;
And with the devious You will show Yourself shrewd.

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What you claim here is not scriptural truth, and I think your assertion on that is quite arrogant!

Nowhere in that conversation from v.1 to v.21 does Jesus tell Nicodemus to repent, and certainly nowhere does it say that repentance comes before spiritual birth. What you call a "bizarre exchange" is not bizarre at all. Jesus was getting right to the point in telling Nicodemus about heavenly things. The very next statement after His mention of heavenly things is: "No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man." This is certainly a heavenly thing He is talking about, just as His mention of the kingdom of God was a heavenly thing.

Therefore, our paths certainly diverge at this point, as I think your interpretation of that passage is clearly wrong.

Minister Monardo said:

John 5:24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him
who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed
from death into life.

Is this statement are part of the "now is" of a Christian life, or a future reference?

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It’s both/and. Without perseverance in this new life, walking with God, living by the Spirit, there won’t be any future in it all.