Free Will - God's test that all mankind flunks

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
You are again talking about what you don't know concerning me.

God no more forced you to be saved than he forced you to be born. It is a gift. Why decry it? Self-determination is that important?

Who is hitting anyone over the head with a Bible, concerning sin?

Again, you said you believed in Calvinism before encountering Calvinism. Calvinism at the heart is determinism and a denial of many verses on the goodness of God. Determinism can be something that appeals to a person because of their mental preference of wanting that to be true. Did a person first consider the immoral implications that goes with determinism involving God?

As for your claim of self determination: Well, I believe God has given man free will choice to choose God or not. But Scripture or the Bible is inspired by God and not men. This is the faith and it comes from God. No self determination gave us the Bible. It’s God’s Holy Word to us. It’s up to us to accept what God wants us to believe and do. God can help us to have more faith, and God can help us to walk in His good ways by His working through us. God is the One who gives us a new heart and a new spirit whereby we will not justify sin or evil or think badly about God. We are new creations in Christ by the power of God. But God did not force Himself upon us. We can choose God and then God can move in our lives. So to say self determination is the sole factor of what I believe is not exactly true. It is God who illuminates Scripture to us and guides us throughout the day. But God does not predetermine sin or evil. God does not lead us into sin or doing wrong. God is good.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Wow!
So, you feel the tragedy of Christ going through the crucifixion experience is all Deity’s fault (Deity’s choice)?
Peter in his “Christ Crucified” sermon od Acts 2, does not say: “Christ and God decided to have Christ go to the cross”, but tells the people they crucified of Christ.
I am blaming myself and, in some ways, all mature adults for Christ/God to force themselves, out of Love for humans, to go to the cross, so how am I wrong?
Love doesn't have to force itself, love runs into dangerous waters to rescue those whose own fault it is they are in their predicament, secures the life preserver around them and pulls them in.
God is doing all He can to reconcile everyone to Himself, but the person still has the free will choice to not humbly accept his/her enemy’s (God) pure undeserved charity. God cannot force the choice and have it, the person’s autonomous free will choice.
Agreed. . .

How many times does it have to be explained you. . .one more time in four easy steps. . .please try to grasp the import of each step before going to the next one:
1) Free will is the power to freely, willingly and voluntarily, without external force or constraint, choose and do what one prefers.

2) God works in the disposition of regenerate men giving them to prefer the things of God.

3) Regenerate man then freely, willingly, and voluntarily, without external force or constraint, chooses what he prefers, i.e., the things of God.

4) The regenerate man, enabled by the work of the Holy Spirit in his disposition, exercises his free will in loving God, he does not violate it.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Grammaticallhy, ithe verse specifically states that because they are jealous and quarrelsome, they are carnal, and that carnality is why they quarrel over Paul and Apollos.

I believe Paul says if we say we are of Paul, or Apollos we are yet carnal. That is how I read 1 Corinthians 3:4 (Whether you agree with that reading or not).

“For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal?” (1 Corinthians 3:4).

In other words, it would be like Paul saying, if a person swears profanities, and another person boasts of his love for the wealthy things of this world, are you-all not carnal?

You said:
Okay. . .tell me what they are, that I may compare them to Scripture and give you an accurate answer as to my belief regarding them.

1. Total Depravity - That the sinner is so depraved and dead spiritually that he cannot choose God without a regeneration.
2. Limited Atonement - That Jesus only died for the Elect and not for the sins of the whole world.
3. Irresistible Grace - That no person once drawn by God’s grace is able to resist it.
4. Unconditional Election - God elects (regenerates a person beyond their own free will prior to faith to be saved) based on no conditions within the individual. Hence, why it is called UNconditional Election. This means God chooses to save some people and by default He chooses others to not be saved. Man has no choice involved or responsibility in being saved or not saved. This is typically why Calvinists deny that a believer has free will involving their choice in choosing God.
5. Perseverance of the Saints: Once a person is born again or regenerated they are eternally secure and can never fall away, and they will persevere to do good works until the end. But there are many verses that teach against Eternal Security and admonitions of how we need to continue in the faith and good works, though.

So none of these 5 points in Calvinism are biblical.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Agreed. . .

How many times does it have to be explained you. . .one more time in four easy steps. . .please try to grasp the import of each step before going to the next one:
1) Free will is the power to freely, willingly and voluntarily, without external force or constraint, choose and do what one prefers.

2) God works in the disposition of regenerate men giving them to prefer the things of God.

3) Regenerate man then freely, willingly, and voluntarily, without external force or constraint, chooses what he prefers, i.e., the things of God.

4) The regenerate man exercises free will; i.e., it is not violated by being forced.

Which sounds like Calvinism because Calvinists believe that one must be first regenerated by God in order to be able to choose God by faith. But this cannot really be demonstrated by looking at the whole counsel of God’s Word.
 
Upvote 0

BeyondET

Earth Treasures
Site Supporter
Jul 17, 2018
2,895
601
Virginia
✟153,535.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Ezekiel 18:23
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Lord GOD. Wouldn't I prefer that he turn from his ways and live?

Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in anyone's death, declares the Lord GOD. So repent and live!
 
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Grammaticallhy, ithe verse specifically states that because they are jealous and quarrelsome, they are carnal, and that carnality is why they quarrel over Paul and Apollos.
Thanks.
Okay. . .tell me what they are, that I may compare them to Scripture and give you an accurate answer as to my belief regarding them.

My five points that I would consider Biblical are the following:

#1. Conditional Election (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#2. Conditional Salvation.
#3. Unrestricted Initial Drawing(s) & Illumination(s) by God For Majority; A.K.A. Free Will Involving One’s Choice Towards the Lord, Grace, or Salvation (Note: Christ draws all men unto Himself, and God is not willing that any should perish.) (Note: All men are given an opportunity or opportunities by God to understand the "Offer of the Love of the Truth" so that they are able to receive it, or reject it of their own free will. - See: 2 Thessalonians 2:10.).
#4. Provisional Majority Atonement (Based upon God’s Foreknowledge).
#5. Partial Depravity.
These points are influenced from the 5 points in Arminianism. My 5 points spells the word: CCUPP.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

BNR32FAN

He’s a Way of life
Site Supporter
Aug 11, 2017
22,518
7,351
Dallas
✟885,374.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
1 Corinthians 4:6.

That’s not even remotely close to saying that our beliefs can only come from scripture. The use of reason and observation are just as valid for formulating beliefs. The scriptures should be used to determine doctrinal beliefs the value of love without free will is not a doctrinal belief.
 
Upvote 0

3 Resurrections

That's 666 YEARS, folks
Aug 21, 2021
1,838
294
Taylors
✟84,420.00
Country
United States
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
It is not either/or. It can be both. It is not illogical to have free will and a predetermined outcome.

That pretty much sums up what I've been saying. Sort of a middle-of-the-road policy.

Furthermore, free will is not a test and this life is not a test.

Well, would you prefer calling it a sort of cosmic demonstration as to what happens when lesser creatures are given a power that they cannot handle without inevitably killing themselves with it?

"But why would God make dead people?" He didn't, we killed ourselves by perverting the good of God. Thats what free will allows and that is sin.

Sad, but true. All of us being "in Adam" as our representative ancestor, our very fallen nature inevitably tends to follow the same inherited practice of sinning when given the opportunity. God's good creation was originally made to always produce after its own kind - which became a corrupted process when a fallen Adam passed on the fallen nature to all that were born following him. Their fault - not God's. It's not as if Adam didn't have a warning ahead of time. God had to follow through on the consequences of their disobedience, or He would have been a liar.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
All humans, prior to Christ’s coming again, are condemned to “death” (physical death) because Adam sinned, but that does not mean all are responsible for Adam’s sin nor are all sinners.
It does in Romans 5:12-18.
Death is part of the process to get to heaven.
That really explains a lot (not!).
Imputed is not found in scripture.
Abraham's faith was credited (imputed) to him as righteousness (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6).
Our faith is credited (imputed) to us as Christ's righteousness (Romans 5:19)
Faith makes us righteous.
No. . .our faith is credited/imputed to us as Christ's righteousness (Romans 4:5, Romans 3:21,
1 Corinthians 1:30; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 1:17, Romans 4:22-25).

We grow in actual righteousness through the Christian life of obedience in the Holy Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Bible Highlighter

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.
Site Supporter
Jul 22, 2014
41,502
7,861
...
✟1,192,685.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
That’s not even remotely close to saying that our beliefs can only come from scripture. The use of reason and observation are just as valid for formulating beliefs. The scriptures should be used to determine doctrinal beliefs the value of love without free will is not a doctrinal belief.

Romans 2:14 says that the Gentiles kept the Law without having the Law. This would be the Moral Law or the Law that men inherently know in doing good vs. not doing good. For example: We turn on the news and see unbelieving Gentiles report about the crimes of murder, rape, theft, etc.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,108
6,101
North Carolina
✟276,620.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
That’s not even remotely close to saying that our beliefs can only come from scripture.
Perhaps you could demonstrate an orthodox Christian belief that goes "beyond what is written."
(1 Corinthians 4:6)
The use of reason and observation are just as valid for formulating beliefs.
Not for formulating Scriptural beliefs, which must be formulated according to Scripture.
The scriptures should be used to determine doctrinal beliefs
the value of love without free will is not a doctrinal belief.
Man has free will, it's just limited; e.g., he cannot choose to be sinless.
 
Upvote 0

Faith Unites

Newbie
Mar 25, 2014
227
46
38
✟25,430.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
In Relationship
Well, would you prefer calling it a sort of cosmic demonstration as to what happens when lesser creatures are given a power that they cannot handle without inevitably killing themselves with it?
I think its just a chance to get to have a relationship with God. In the end its not about how good or bad you were. Its about being alive or dead.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,217.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Where did Clare say ALL GOD'S FAULT? Here we go again, you depending on the old saw, of "If God does something, even merely causing that it be, it is therefore all his fault that it happened." Of Course(!) they did it. That does not mean that God did not intend it when he began this whole plan.
“Christ didn't have to go to the cross, that was 100% divine choice.”

As a parent I have to do some things I do not personally desire to do, but because my children did something I have to do something because I Love them. But it is still their fault, I am having to do what I did.

Are you saying: “It is God’s fault they did what they did?

I'm having a hard time not getting sarcastic, but it borders on flaming to do so. I almost feel sorry for such an impotent god.
I am very impressed by the Love of the prodigal son’s father and what He accomplished with His young son, so how is this father “impotent” like the God I described?


Autonomy in the creature is logically self-contradictory.
No it is not, what “law” of logic did I break?



He just couldn't help himself? He saw that mankind, somehow became needy, so he couldn't help but respond? He didn't INTEND this? That contradicts Omnipotence.
You are building a strawman, I did not say God learned something.

The fact that God cannot do the logically impossible does not mean God is not omnipotent.

The fact that God cannot “make” a clone of Christ since Christ has always existed does not mean God is not omnipotent.
 
Upvote 0

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,217.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Of course it is a choice. Who said otherwise? The Creator predestining "all things whatsoever shall come to pass" does not negate actual choice of the creature.
I said “free will choice” and not just “choice”. The outcome of the choice cannot be “predestined by the Creator” if the choice is a free will choice of the individual. The Creator can have perfect foreknowledge of the outcome of the individual’s free will choice from the beginning of time.
 
Upvote 0

JIMINZ

Well-Known Member
Apr 13, 2017
6,600
2,358
79
Southern Ga.
✟157,715.00
Country
United States
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
God is doing all He can to reconcile everyone to Himself, but the person still has the free will choice to not humbly accept his/her enemy’s (God) pure undeserved charity. God cannot force the choice and have it, the person’s autonomous free will choice.

Excuse me but, your working under the misconception that,
(Salvation is OFFERED for your approval).
When in fact it is GIVEN as a gift, which does not require any approval by the recipient.

Who ever told you it was a choice, when Salvation is Gods' pure undeserved charity?

There are some who believe they are "The Elect" others might call themselves "The Chosen".

Where in either of these terms where one might describe themselves is, Free Will in the forefront?How does Free Will superseded being Elected or Chosen by God?

Do you not understand that just because God gives someone an unmerited gift of Salvation, they do not automatically become Gods Robot?

Have you or anyone you know, rejected a gift given to you on your birthday?
I don't think so, but rather, you just don't understand Unmerited Favor, believing you are always beholding to the one giving the gift.

If you were walking down the street one day and saw a homeless man, you stop and give him $1,000,
at which point in time does this homeless man become your robot?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bling

Regular Member
Site Supporter
Feb 27, 2008
16,183
1,809
✟801,217.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Imputation is not found in scripture?
2 Cor 5:21, "For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God"

Do you claim some are not sinners? Or are you just saying that it is not the force of such verses as we find in Romans 5 (that in Adam all have sinned)?

Where do you think this gift of God, salvific faith, comes from?
“All” does not include the unborn child.

You quote:

“2 Cor 5:21 Him who knew no sin he made [to be] sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.”

This is an extremely important verse to show imputing our sins to Christ, so the imputing of righteousness to man seems logical, BUT:

Is that even a good translation?

What does “Christ made to be sin” or “Christ made sin” mean: did Christ become a sinner, did a being become an intangible thing like “sin” and are there other scripture to help us with this?

If you go to the NIV there is an alternative translation for at the bottom where “sin offering” is given as an alternative to “being made sin” and we all know Christ was a “sin offering”, so what support is there for that translation?

Paul being a scholar of the Torah, used a Hebraism. In this case, the Hebrew word for "sin" was also used to mean "sin offering" (see the Hebrew word: chatta'ath), and thus to be "made sin" was a Hebrew way of saying "made a sin offering". the NASB cross-references to Romans 8:3 which uses "sin offering" in a similar text as 2 Corinthians 5:21

There is the analogy in 2 Corinthians 8:9; the cross-reference to the clearer statement in Romans 8:3 that Christ was sent "in the likeness of sinful flesh" to deal with sin; and the allusion to Sacrifice in 2 Corinthians 5:21 where it says Christ "knew no sin" in corresponding to the sacrificial animal being free of blemish (otherwise Paul saying "knew no sin" would be irrelevant here).

The Greek word for "sin" that Paul uses is used in the Greek Old Testament both to mean "sin" and "sin offering," with both usages even in the same verse such as in Leviticus 4:3.

You can certainly do a deeper study of 2 Cor 5: 21 and we can go into Ro.3-4.

God is literally but not physically at everyone’s elbow no matter what they are doing or what mess they are in. We do not have to journey home to be with the God our Father, like the prodigal son did, but just mentally turn to Him. There is nothing that can separate a Christian from God, but you seem to be suggesting Christ separated Himself from God, because of “sin”, yet sin is all around us. Christ talks to God about not holding this sin against those crucifying Him, so God is there. Do you feel Christ became a “sinner”? Sins are not tangible things you can move around, but Christ can take the severe punishment for sin, which is not the same as becoming a sinner?

How are you translating and interpreting 2 Cor. 5:21 if you are not saying Christ became a sinner?

God gifts all mature adults with a “faith” (natural faith).

People can use their God given “faith” to believe in idols made of wood and stone, but they can also turn that faith toward a benevolent Creator to provide them with undeserving help (charity).
 
Upvote 0