144 Thousand in Revelations 7

Jeffwhosoever said:

I was wondering about this number 144,000 so did a bit of research. The number of Christians living in Israel has been declining for years, likely decades, due to persecution and conflict in the middle east. As of 2019, or pre-COVID, that number was estimated to be 177,000. Not far away from the prophecized 144,000, so now I am wondering if this is yet another marker of the end times being imminent.

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The problem is that you are attempting to read the Book of Revelation as a literal narrative must say that this means that only literal 144,000 Jews or Christians living within a Middle Eastern nation called "Israel". Sorry but the 144,000 is used elsewhere, and is understood symbolic in nature.

The root numbers of 144,000 are quite obviously the numbers 10 and 12. The number 10 and it's multiples (100, 1000, etc) are the numbers of fullness. As demonstrated in the 10 virgins, or the 100 sheep with one going astray, or the 1000 years being as one day. They all signify the fullness of whatever is in view. And the number 12 is illustrative of the Congregation of the Lord, as seen in the Old Covenant 12 tribes of Israel, or the New Covenant 12 Apostles. 1000 times 12 is 12,000. That is the fulness of those children of God who are sealed. And of course, 12,000 times each tribe is 144,000. The perfect measured fulness of the house of God from all tribes, as also illustrated in the perfect City of Jerusalem. It makes up of all faithful Elect, Jews and Gentiles, from the Old and New Testament congregation. They are spiritual Jersualem. As it is written:

Rev 21:12-17
(12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
(13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
(14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
(15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.
(16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.
(17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

The City of God is not 12,000 furlongs by coincidence any more than each tribe has 12,000 sealed by coincidence. The wall is not 144,000 cubits by coincidence any more than those sealed of Israel are 144,000. These numbers are God ordained to signify the full measure of the Israel of God. This liberal use of the number 12 in Revelation illustrates this. Whether the 12 Apostles, the 12 tribes, the tree of life which bare 12 manner of fruit, the 12 gates, the 12 pearls, the 12 foundations, etc., these are spiritual significations of the fullness, for, and of, the body of believers. Not a literal city Jerusalem in the middle east, but a Spiritual Jerusalem in Israel which is Christ. Not a worldly Israel, but a heavenly habitation of God. This Israel is also illustrated in revelation chapter 14.

Rev 14:1-5
(1) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
(2) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
(3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
(4) These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
(5) And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Here God tells us clearly who these 144,000 represent! The body of Christ are those who stand on Mount Zion with this Lamb and all have the Father's name written in their foreheads. All part of a New Covenant with Israel, which is not an earthly nation, but spiritual agreement or promise, which is something far superior. As also seen in Hebrews chapter 12.

Heb 12:22-24
(22) But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
(23) To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
(24) And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

This is a covenant that Messiah the Prince has confirmed with His people! His people is the heavenly Jerusalem, the City of God which is 12,000 furlongs and the wall of which is 144,000 cubits. Quite obviously a Spiritual City made up of all those in Christ. Selah! Hebrews tells us, "this" is the City which those who are sealed have come unto. "This" is the Mount Sion. There is no separate New Covenant with an Israel of Jews and a New Covenant with the Israel of Gentiles, there is only "one" New Covenant, and one mediator, which is Christ! Hebrews chapters 8 and 9 make that abundantly clear, if we will receive it. It is the whole congregation of God.

The Biblical Fact is that the 144,000 symbolically ALL people in Christ from Old and New Testament.

Hi

Did you ever consider that 99% of Christianity is of the House of Israel. Hmmmmm

Biblelesson

Hi Bible

Sorry Bible meant that figuratively. I meant core Christianity is the wild Olive Tree

Well we know that most who considered themselves Gentile were in fact not Gentiles at all. As Paul clearly tell the Church at Corinth. We know that the Lost tribes did not get wiped out by the Romans Twice. We know that the Lost Tribes were 5 fold as many as the house of Judah in 715 BC We know that the Lost tribes would spread to all corners of the world according to Jacob.

We know that the Kingdom would be taken away for the House of Judah and given to the Other House.

We know that the Two Olive Trees are the Two Houses. God clearly calls the two house his Olive tree.

We know there are two olive trees in Romans

You starting to see a pattern a reality a truth here?

The 144,000 are very simple to identify. The key is in their description as being called "the FIRSTFRUITS unto God and to the Lamb".

Christ was also given the title of the "FIRSTFRUITS" risen from the dead (I Cor. 15:20 & 23). He shared the same title as the 144,000 "Firstfruits" because they all shared the same experience. Christ raised them all from the dead together with Him back in Matthew 27:52-53.

They were called "virgins" because there is no marriage nor giving in marriage in the resurrected state.

They were "redeemed from the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) because it was graves around Jerusalem that were broken open by the earthquake when Christ died.

They were described as being with the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, because these Matthew 27 resurrected saints went into the city of Jerusalem where Mount Zion was, and were seen of many there.

They were described as having "no guile" in their mouth and being "without fault", because a resurrected, glorified saint cannot possibly tell a lie or commit a sin ever again.

They "followed the Lamb everywhere he went" during Jesus's 40 days of manifesting Himself until His final ascension from the Mount of Olives in Acts 1.

They were the only ones able to learn that unique "song" because their experience was a unique one, never before and never after duplicated in history.

Their number was composed of the various tribes listed in Revelation 7 because it was local JEWISH graves around Jerusalem that were opened. Dan and Ephraim were not included in the 144,000 count because both had apostatized to idolatry completely back in earlier generations, and were probably not buried in graves around Jerusalem anyway.

There is no reason why this number of 144,000 could not be a literal amount as well as a highly symbolic one as well.

The Old Testament Firstfruits wave offering of the handful of barley in the Temple provided a picture of this "First Resurrection" group of Matthew 27:52-53 saints raised from the dead. Significantly, the Firstfuits handful of the barley harvest was also to be offered along with a single he-lamb - representative of Christ. "And ye shall offer that day when ye wave the sheaf an he lamb without blemish of the first year for a burnt offering unto the Lord." (Leviticus 23:12).

Conclusion: the 144,000 in Revelation 7 and Revelation 14 were the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected Jewish saints which composed the First Resurrection group.

Hi Biblelesson,

The resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints were also the "multitude of captives" that Christ brought with Him out of the grave and gave as "gifts" to men in Ephesians 4:8-12. They were composed of apostles (meaning "sent ones"), prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers, to remain on earth at that time in order to help build up the early church.
This meant that they rose from the grave along with Christ at His resurrection. He led them out of the grave. TOGETHER they composed the "First-fruits" group. The Matthew 27 saints were also spoken of as that "remnant of the dead" that came to life again as the "FIRST resurrection" event in Revelation 20:5. That group of 144,000 Jewish resurrected saints was an impressive number, but only a comparatively small remnant fraction of how many would rise from the dead later on.

Christ was not represented in type by the Leviticus 23 sheaf handful: He was represented by the single he-lamb without blemish offered along with that handful of barley Firstfuits offering.

The titles that truly ARE unique for Christ alone are the "FIRSTBORN" and the "FIRSTBEGOTTEN" from among that First-fruits group of the resurrected dead. The reason He alone acquired these names when the rest of the First-fruits Matthew 27 saints didn't is because He was absolutely the very first one of resurrected humankind to ascend to the Father in that resurrected state and stand before Him in heaven that morning after His resurrection. The Matthew 27 saints remained on the earth in the city of Jerusalem at that time.

Remember, the Psalms 2:7 prophecy when God would say to Christ "THIS DAY have I begotten thee"? That was the morning after His resurrection, when He ascended to the Father (as you are aware that He told Mary He was going to do this). Paul in Acts 13:33 interpreted Psalms 2:7 for us as Christ being "begotten" by God in heaven on that resurrection day.

The whole reason for the Hymenaus and Philetus heresy growing up in the early church was a result of their misunderstanding the significance of this "First resurrection" event in AD 33. They were teaching that the astonishing group of 144,000 Matthew 27 resurrected saints was the ONLY group resurrection that would ever take place. Of course, it wasn't the only one, but their teaching was plausible enough to discourage the faith of the saints in that generation. Paul had to explain in I Thess. 4 that there was going to be another resurrection event when those Matthew 27 "alive" and "remaining" Firstfruits would remain on earth until that time, when they would all "meet the Lord in the air" together and return to heaven.

You have conflated that different UNNUMBERED group of saints in Revelation 7:9 with the NUMBERED group of 144,000 resurrected Firstfruits saints in. They are NOT the same group. The 144,000 was strictly Jewish tribal members, and the other came from every nation, people, and tongue. John saw one group "AFTER" he had seen the other one.

Neither are the James 1:18 believers the same as the 144,000. Those believers which James spoke of were called only a spiritually-begotten "KIND of Firstfruits", similar in a symbolic way, but not directly identifiable as the bodily-resurrected 144,000 First-fruits from Matthew 27:52-53.

biblelesson said:

Are you saying that those who rose from the dead in Matthew 27:52-53, stayed on the earth after they rose and appeared to many, and were the ones who received the gift of Christ to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to build up the church? Are you saying they lived again after being resurrected from the dead, and then they died a second time?

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They would have lived for 1991 years, because they could never die again.

Timtofly said:

They would have lived for 1991 years, because they could never die again

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You might be saying this tongue in cheek, but I agree that the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints never died again. That's not even possible for a saint raised to incorruptibility by the power of the Spirit. "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die, and after that the judgment." Not twice. You might as well say that the Holy Spirit can die. Or that Jesus can die twice. But the Matthew 27 resurrected Firstfruits saints are not on this planet anymore, and haven't been since they were "raptured" long ago. They were the ones who had been MADE "alive", but who had "remained" on earth (per the I Thess. 4 "rapture" passage).

The "rapture" text needs a little adjustment from the typical interpretation it usually gets. Because it never was intended to include a "translation" type of change for those who hadn't died yet. No one was ever given that promise in scripture - only the promise that the saints' dead physical bodies would be changed.

Biblelesson, there is a distinct difference between the "FIRSTBORN" and the "FIRSTFRUITS". They are not the same thing. One is singular, and the other plural. Christ is ever and always the ONLY ONE who could claim the exclusive "FIRSTBORN" title, but He shared the "FIRSTFRUITS" title with those 144,000 Firstfruits saints whom He raised out of the grave along with Himself.

The whole intent of the emphasis on the Firstborn who "opened the matrix" back under Mosaic law was to point forward in time to Christ the "Firstborn" who would open up the way for all His brethren to eventually stand before the Father in heaven once they were resurrected. NO ONE had ever ascended to heaven in a resurrected body before Christ had done this on the morning after His resurrection. This does give Him the preeminence, as you are pointing out.

If you can't recognize that the "FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20:5 was that of Christ the "FIRST-fruits" and the relatively small "remnant of the dead" Matt. 27 saints who came to life again at that point, then you are missing the first-century elements that are part of that prophecy. Those sitting on thrones who had judgment given to them in Revelation 20:4 were the apostles sitting on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel during the era of the early church in Jerusalem. Christ had promised this to them earlier in Matthew 19:28, once He had been regenerated in the AD 33 resurrection and had sat on the throne of His glory at His final ascension.

biblelesson said:

I don't see what you are saying about the 144,000 being a spiritually begotten Kind relating to James 1:18, and then a bodily resurrected 144,000 first fruits relating to Matthew 27:52-53.

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Errr, no, that's not quite what I said. Sorry if that was confusing. James was speaking to ordinary Jewish believers of the "12 tribes scattered abroad" who had been spiritually begotten by God. As part of the established early church, they evidently were some of the first Jewish people who had come to faith in Christ. James was making a like comparison between these Jewish believers' spiritually-resurrected Firstfruits status in the early church to those who had already been physically resurrected from the dead as the Firstfruits (the 144,000 Matthew 27 saints). The believing Jews James was writing to were a symbolic "KIND" of Firstfruits that bore some similarity to the 144,000 Firstfruits group who were bodily raised from out of the grave in the First resurrection in AD 33.

As for Hymenaus and Philetus, these men were mistakenly teaching that the "resurrection is PAST already", as Paul said in II Timothy 2:18. Actually, they were partly right that the "First resurrection" of Christ and the Matthew 27 Firstfruits saints was past already, but they were certainly wrong that it was the ONLY resurrection that would ever take place. This is why Paul had to explain and offer comfort in I Thess. 4 that those among the church who had already been made "alive" but who had "remained" on earth, (reserved and sealed in that resurrected state), would NOT be the only ones making it to the exit ramp when Christ returned. Those other saints who were still dead in the grave would also be raised to life again at that time. Then and only then would the "alive" and "remaining" saints who had already been resurrected be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and to return to heaven with Him.


As for the Ephesians 4 passage about Christ "leading captivity captive", I don't think you are recognizing Paul's Hebrew writing technique going on here. It was typical for the writer to double a word to add emphasis to it. For example, notice the verse that says God drew the prophet up out of "an horrible pit". In the original language, it says God drew him out of "a PIT PIT." In other words, the Pit was about as nasty as a pit could be. A really "pitty kind of pit". When bricks were made for the tower of Babel, in English it says they "burned them thoroughly", but in Hebrew, it says that they "BURNED them to a BURNING". There are many examples of this doubled word for added emphasis in scripture, and the "captivity captive" phrase in Ephesians 4:8 is one of them. In the margin of the KJV, it says Jesus led "a MULTITUDE OF CAPTIVES" when He ascended. In other words, a whole lot of captives. (Amounting to 144,000 specifically.)

This "multitude of captives" were the individuals as gifts which Christ gave to serve in the early church who were identified as apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers. Their footprints are ALL OVER the New Testament in the most unexpected places. If you have ever done a study on this Matthew 27:52-53 Firstfruits group raised by Christ in the First resurrection, they are a fascinating subject to dig into. As of last count, I think I had found about 30 places where their activities and identity are mentioned.

biblelesson said:

Are you saying that those who rose from the dead in Matthew 27:52-53, stayed on the earth after they rose and appeared to many, and were the ones who received the gift of Christ to be apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, and teachers to build up the church?

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Yes, that is what scripture teaches us.

biblelesson said:

To clarify that those saints who rose from the dead in Matthew were not commissioned to preach the Gospel, in Acts 10:13-15, we see Peter was commissioned by God to preach the gospel to the Jews, Galatians 2:7, Acts 10:13-15. And Apostle Paul was then later commissioned by Jesus to go to the Gentiles and preach the gospel, Galatians 2:7, Acts 9:4, Acts 9:15.

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Not denying Peter and Paul's individual commissions, but the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were also commissioned to preach the gospel. Want references?

3 Resurrections said:

Not denying Peter and Paul's individual commissions, but the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were also commissioned to preach the gospel. Want references?

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Hi 3R, welcome to the forum.

I have held the same view you have about the 144,000 for some time now; although I think they went to heaven at some point between when Jesus tells Mary not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to the father (John 20:17) and before he was able to be touched by Thomas (John 20:27).

That being said I would like to examine the references you have to support the 144,000 being commissioned to preach the gospel.

I would also like to get your thoughts on the word “beheaded” in Revelation 20:4. I think this is referring to the axe being taken to the root and Messiah being cut off in Daniel 9:26. Your thoughts?

Thank you for the welcome, grafted branch, glad to be here. As I guess you can tell, I absolutely LOVE to write! Too much, probably, which is hard for folks to wade through.

There is one way to prove that the Firstfruits Matthew 27 resurrected saints did NOT ascend as soon as you think they did. We have Paul telling the believers in Romans 8:23 that "...ourselves also, WHICH *HAVE* THE FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." This is NOT the same thing as having the "Fruit of the Spirit" (like love, joy, peace, etc.). That's two different Greek words. Paul meant that the church HAD these Firstfruits saints among them, who were just as eager as anyone else to see the Spirit's redemption of the bodies of the rest of the saints who had died.

Romans was written around AD 60, so those resurrected Firstfruits were still around serving in the church at that time.

The Ephesians 4:11-12 tells us just why Jesus had given that "multitude of captives" as gifts to the church. Serving in those roles of apostle, prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers, their purpose for being given to men was "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

Do you remember the time when Christ told the disciples that the fields were already white unto harvest? He was talking about how the Jews were ready and needing evangelism right then. The disciples were told to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth laborers into that harvest. The Matthew 27 saints that Jesus brought with Him out of the grave were a major part of the answer to that prayer for more workers in the evangelistic harvest.

Do you also remember that Christ told the disciples that they would not have finished going over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man had come? Meaning He would have returned in His second coming BEFORE they had evangelized all the cities of Israel. Yet the promise was also given that the gospel would be "preached in all the world, and THEN the end would come". Paul's writings confirmed that the gospel had indeed gone "to every creature under heaven" and "in all the world" as of the time he was writing. So, if the disciples were not going to have completely covered the evangelistic field in Israel's cities with their personal ministry, but yet the nations of the world HAD ALREADY been exposed to the gospel according to Paul, then WHO was it that did all that evangelizing in the entire world? I maintain that the resurrected Matthew 27 saints did a major part of this.

Can you just imagine how much evangelistic ground could have been covered between AD 33 AND AD 70 by each one of those 144,000 resurrected Matthew 27 saints? They were not susceptible to the ordinary limitations of the disciples. They would have conceivably been able to travel ALL OVER the world into every pocket of civilization. Impervious to weariness, injury, deception, death, hunger, disease, etc.. There would have been no limit to the number of people they could have reached with the gospel.

That's just a few of the references related to the Matthew 27 saints' purpose for remaining on earth back then.

As for the souls who were "beheaded for the witness of Jesus", of course one of these was John the Baptist - literally beheaded - but this "beheading" can just as well refer to the general deaths by martyrdom for these individuals. Some of them could have been the prophets killed in Jerusalem through the centuries; perhaps all the prophets slain by Queen Jezebel - anyone of the martyred saints who testified beforehand of "the coming of the Just One". I believe scripture is quite clear that the Rev. 20 millennium was a very literal thousand years, ending with the "First Resurrection" in AD 33, and beginning with Solomon's foundation stone for the temple being laid down in 968/967 BC. A full thousand years of a physical temple worship system. A type pointing forward in time to the fulfillment of the True Spiritual Temple with Christ as its True foundation stone.

During those literal thousand years of Satan's deception of the nations being bound until AD 33, those faithful ones who became martyrs for the witness of Jesus the coming Messiah each had their turn to "reign in life" with Christ during their natural lifetime while on earth.

3 Resurrections said:

Thank you for the welcome, grafted branch, glad to be here. As I guess you can tell, I absolutely LOVE to write! Too much, probably, which is hard for folks to wade through.

There is one way to prove that the Firstfruits Matthew 27 resurrected saints did NOT ascend as soon as you think they did. We have Paul telling the believers in Romans 8:23 that "...ourselves also, WHICH *HAVE* THE FIRSTFRUITS of the Spirit..." This is NOT the same thing as having the "Fruit of the Spirit" (like love, joy, peace, etc.). That's two different Greek words. Paul meant that the church HAD these Firstfruits saints among them, who were just as eager as anyone else to see the Spirit's redemption of the bodies of the rest of the saints who had died.

Romans was written around AD 60, so those resurrected Firstfruits were still around serving in the church at that time.

The Ephesians 4:11-12 tells us just why Jesus had given that "multitude of captives" as gifts to the church. Serving in those roles of apostle, prophet, evangelists, pastors and teachers, their purpose for being given to men was "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"

Do you remember the time when Christ told the disciples that the fields were already white unto harvest? He was talking about how the Jews were ready and needing evangelism right then. The disciples were told to pray that the Lord of the harvest would send forth laborers into that harvest. The Matthew 27 saints that Jesus brought with Him out of the grave were a major part of the answer to that prayer for more workers in the evangelistic harvest.

Do you also remember that Christ told the disciples that they would not have finished going over the cities of Israel until the Son of Man had come? Meaning He would have returned in His second coming BEFORE they had evangelized all the cities of Israel. Yet the promise was also given that the gospel would be "preached in all the world, and THEN the end would come". Paul's writings confirmed that the gospel had indeed gone "to every creature under heaven" and "in all the world" as of the time he was writing. So, if the disciples were not going to have completely covered the evangelistic field in Israel's cities with their personal ministry, but yet the nations of the world HAD ALREADY been exposed to the gospel according to Paul, then WHO was it that did all that evangelizing in the entire world? I maintain that the resurrected Matthew 27 saints did a major part of this.

Can you just imagine how much evangelistic ground could have been covered between AD 33 AND AD 70 by each one of those 144,000 resurrected Matthew 27 saints? They were not susceptible to the ordinary limitations of the disciples. They would have conceivably been able to travel ALL OVER the world into every pocket of civilization. Impervious to weariness, injury, deception, death, hunger, disease, etc.. There would have been no limit to the number of people they could have reached with the gospel.

That's just a few of the references related to the Matthew 27 saints' purpose for remaining on earth back then.

As for the souls who were "beheaded for the witness of Jesus", of course one of these was John the Baptist - literally beheaded - but this "beheading" can just as well refer to the general deaths by martyrdom for these individuals. Some of them could have been the prophets killed in Jerusalem through the centuries; perhaps all the prophets slain by Queen Jezebel - anyone of the martyred saints who testified beforehand of "the coming of the Just One". I believe scripture is quite clear that the Rev. 20 millennium was a very literal thousand years, ending with the "First Resurrection" in AD 33, and beginning with Solomon's foundation stone for the temple being laid down in 968/967 BC. A full thousand years of a physical temple worship system. A type pointing forward in time to the fulfillment of the True Spiritual Temple with Christ as its True foundation stone.

During those literal thousand years of Satan's deception of the nations being bound until AD 33, those faithful ones who became martyrs for the witness of Jesus the coming Messiah each had their turn to "reign in life" with Christ during their natural lifetime while on earth.

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Thanks for your response; I’m one of the few people here that does appreciate the long posts when it’s a topic I’m studying.

I’m going to have to think about your view here and the 144,000 literally going into all the world. I personally have not heard of a missionary coming back and saying that the people they went to had already known of Christ. Do you know if there is any evidence outside of the Bible that shows the gospel was preached to the Americas or Australia during the first century?

grafted branch said:

I’m going to have to think about your view here and the 144,000 literally going into all the world. I personally have not heard of a missionary coming back and saying that the people they went to had already known of Christ. Do you know if there is any evidence outside of the Bible that shows the gospel was preached to the Americas or Australia during the first century?

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Well, we ARE almost 2,000 years removed from that time period of the Matthew 27 saints' past evangelistic efforts. Their world-wide evangelistic coverage came to an end at a certain point. If it's not forbidden to mention it here on this particular forum, I do believe that there was "ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead" back in AD 70, soon after Paul had said that to Felix in Acts 24:15. A resurrection that BODILY raised all the saints from Adam until that time, and in which the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were raptured to heaven along with them (but NO translated saints included, as is commonly assumed for the rapture scenario). All the massive amounts of first-century persecutions for the saints was simply God's program for maxing out the number of dead saints who would be able to participate in that year's second resurrection.

Since that second bodily resurrection back in AD 70, evangelism has steadily puttered along in varying levels of coverage over the world, just as Christ's "leaven" parable showed would happen. Civilizations have risen and fallen, as well as evangelism opportunities. Thankfully, "the Word of God is not bound", as Paul confidently claimed, even with chains dangling from his body. Archaeology is even now bringing to light evidences of the wide-flung impact of early first-century Christian influences over the planet (in China I think was the latest discovery), so we may yet uncover the evidence you ask for.

For ourselves, we are currently waiting for the THIRD bodily resurrection in our distant future (which the forum forbids giving a date for, but for which scripture does give us an indication of the year and month).

3 Resurrections said:

Well, we ARE almost 2,000 years removed from that time period of the Matthew 27 saints' past evangelistic efforts. Their world-wide evangelistic coverage came to an end at a certain point. If it's not forbidden to mention it here on this particular forum, I do believe that there was "ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of the dead" back in AD 70, soon after Paul had said that to Felix in Acts 24:15. A resurrection that BODILY raised all the saints from Adam until that time, and in which the Matthew 27 resurrected saints were raptured to heaven along with them (but NO translated saints included, as is commonly assumed for the rapture scenario). All the massive amounts of first-century persecutions for the saints was simply God's program for maxing out the number of dead saints who would be able to participate in that year's second resurrection.

Since that second bodily resurrection back in AD 70, evangelism has steadily puttered along in varying levels of coverage over the world, just as Christ's "leaven" parable showed would happen. Civilizations have risen and fallen, as well as evangelism opportunities. Thankfully, "the Word of God is not bound", as Paul confidently claimed, even with chains dangling from his body. Archaeology is even now bringing to light evidences of the wide-flung impact of early first-century Christian influences over the planet (in China I think was the latest discovery), so we may yet uncover the evidence you ask for.

For ourselves, we are currently waiting for the THIRD bodily resurrection in our distant future (which the forum forbids giving a date for, but for which scripture does give us an indication of the year and month).

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It’s ok to use Acts of the Apostles 24:15 to say that they were expecting a resurrection but it would be very difficult to prove biblically that an actual resurrection occurred in 70 AD. I think it would be ok to discuss whether a resurrection occurred in 70 AD as long as someone doesn’t try to promote full preterits. If someone is full preterits then you have to go to the controversial theology board. Since you see a future resurrection and coming of the Lord then you’re ok to post here.

As far as date setting I know that’s not allowed but there are some people who hold to a 6,000 year period followed by a 1,000 year millennium; some of them seem to know the year of the second coming but they don’t give an exact day. If you are counting Sabbath years or something like that to come to an approximation of when you see a third resurrection I would think you’re ok to discuss the reasoning behind you’re conclusion. I personally don’t think there is a way to project any future events but I’m always studying to learn more.

grafted branch said:

It’s ok to use Acts of the Apostles 24:15 to say that they were expecting a resurrection but it would be very difficult to prove biblically that an actual resurrection occurred in 70 AD.

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Not as difficult as you might suppose.

Actually, I have been doing that very thing for the past 9 years on various other Christian websites. The proof for timing a bodily resurrection of the saints in AD 70 is all through the NT writings - and the OT - and there are recorded external proofs related to this as well. I don't know why in all my 50-some years as a believer that I didn't see this until late in life, but better late than never!

Like many others, I also hold to a total 7,000-year projected history for fallen mankind, (symbolically reflective of the 7-day creation week), which has been proposed before by rabbinic sources and even pre-millennium dispensational adherents. But as for the Revelation 20 millennium, I see scripture planting it exactly in the middle of those 7,000 years - not at the end. Because scripture tells us exactly when that Rev. 20 millennium ENDED, then we can use that information to place all of human history in its correct position on the timeline.

It is SOOO faith-confirming to see ancient historical records aligning with all of Revelation's unsealed, WRITTEN prophecies (excluding, of course, the sealed-up, UNWRITTEN prophecies of Rev. 10:4 that would apply to times post-AD 70.) I can totally rest my hopes for the future in a God who keeps all His promises to the very day.

3 Resurrections said:

Not as difficult as you might suppose.

Actually, I have been doing that very thing for the past 9 years on various other Christian websites. The proof for timing a bodily resurrection of the saints in AD 70 is all through the NT writings - and the OT - and there are recorded external proofs related to this as well. I don't know why in all my 50-some years as a believer that I didn't see this until late in life, but better late than never!

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I personally don’t have an issue with there being a resurrection in 70 AD; I think it’s quite possible. If you want to start a new thread on this topic and present your support for this I would be interested in looking at it, but if you do start a new thread be prepared for some strong opposition.

3 Resurrections said:

I can totally rest my hopes for the future in a God who keeps all His promises to the very day.

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I completely agree with this statement.

grafted branch said:

I personally don’t have an issue with there being a resurrection in 70 AD; I think it’s quite possible. If you want to start a new thread on this topic and present your support for this I would be interested in looking at it, but if you do start a new thread be prepared for some strong opposition.

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To be sure!! You're not kidding!! I've written copious amounts about a fulfilled second coming in AD 70 and another future third coming on various other websites. Even though scripture says otherwise, people go to great lengths in order to hang on to having Satan still operating in this world. It's almost as if they LOVE the idea of him still lurking around as a scapegoat to blame for the world's evil. Robycop3 and I have exchanged some very lively conversations elsewhere on another forum about eschatological subjects. I didn't expect to convince him, but it was very good interpretive exercise. If what I have discovered has no truth in it after all, then I WANT it to be proven wrong by scripture, historical record, and sound reasoning.