What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

Faith Unites · Aug 25, 2021

eleos1954 said:
Jesus said, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.” Mark 2:27 ESV

The seventh day of the creation week was blessed and made holy by God.

Genesis 2:2,3 ESV says, “And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.”

He wanted us to have a special day to rest and spend time with Him.

God’s people throughout history have kept His commandments. Even Jesus asked us to keep His commandments!

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” John 14:15

Clearly, Jesus intended for us to keep His commandments. But which commandments are we to keep? The Ten Commandments.

The Ten Commandments are God’s eternal moral law. They are distinct and separate from other laws found in the Bible. Unlike the Mosaic Laws, the Ten Commandments were:

Moral ????? You can't get any "moral" than the 10 Commandments of which God wrote Himself .

Written by God’s own finger (Exodus 32:16)

Kept inside of the Ark of the Covenant (Deuteronomy 10:5)

confirmed in the New Testament

God’s eternal law gives us guidelines for living a holy life. They were given for our wellbeing. They are eternal, never changing. And the 4th commandment tells us to remember the Sabbath. It reminds us that the gift of the Sabbath was given to us in the very beginning.

Everything Jesus taught and how He lived His earthly life is our example.

1 Peter 2:21

For you have been called for this purpose, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you would follow in His steps

Jesus didn't keep the 7th Day Sabbath because He was a Jew (as some claim) .... He kept it because it is the 4th commandment.

In everything Jesus is our example.

Yeah like I said it’s debatable lol. The sabbath command is never repeated in the New Testament. You say the Lord gave us a special day to spend time with Him, but that should be everyday. To be clear I’m not saying we should not obey the 4th commandment. But, I am suggesting that perhaps it’s deeper than simply a day of the week. The 4th commandment seems to be one that does not belong compared to the others. That does not mean we toss it out. It just means that there is something uniquely special about it. The first 3 are about how to love God and then 5-10 are for loving people. What about the 4th? And which sabbath shall we follow? The Jewish sabbath or the Lords day? We are no longer under the law but that does not mean the commandments are dead. Rather, they are now written on our hearts. We used to get away with just not sinning, but now we shouldn’t even think about sinning. Of course get your butt in church every week. But like I said, I just think it’s deeper than what day of the week we should honor. Jesus is our rest. Is he also the sabbath? Maybe. Maybe that’s why it’s number 4. It bridges the gap between God and man.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Butch5 said:
I did answer your question. Begotten before all ages. I even asked you a few questions which you avoided. Do you understand what, begotten before all ages means? I'll answer this time with the Scriptures so you can tell Paul that he's wrong and that he has no right to be posting in this forum.

Well, I know that begotten means to be given birth to or created. I was asking if that is how you understand those words. That is why I asked the questions in the way that I did for clarification.
Again, do you believe the Living Word (or the Son of God) was begotten in the sense as being created before the creation? Meaning, do you believe the Living Word did not exist in Eternity’s Past? Meaning, do you believe the Living Word had a beginning of days?

You said:
1 Timothy 6:13–16 (LEB): I command you, in the sight of God who gives life to all things and Christ Jesus who testified the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you observe the commandment without fault, irreproachable until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 15 which he will make known in his own time, the blessed and only Sovereign, the King of those who reign as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, 16 the one who alone possesses immortality, who lives in unapproachable light, whom no human being has seen nor is able to see, to whom be honor and eternal power. Amen.

Jesus is the one who alone possesses immorality. The immediate context is in reference to Jesus. Plus, 1 John 5:20 says Jesus is the true God and eternal life. But yes, Jesus does dwell within the unapproachable light of God the Father. This in no way proves what you stated to me by email in that you appear to hold to some kind of Binitarian or Bitheist viewpoint on God.

You said:
Paul said that when Jesus comes He will show the the one who alone has immortality, the one no man has seen nor can see. According to Paul there is only one who is eternal and that's the one no man has seen nor can see. So you better tell him he can't post here because he doesn't agree with you idea of the Trinity.

Okay. So you are saying that the apostle Paul does not agree with the idea of the Trinity?
Well, the forum rules state that you are not allowed to promote Non-Trinitarianism in this section of the forums.

Faith Unites · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Okay. So you are saying that the apostle Paul does not agree with the idea of the Trinity?
Well, the forum rules state that you are not allowed to promote Non-Trinitarianism in this section of the forums.

lol

Strong in Him · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Anyways, the NET Bible denies Jesus as God.

Your starting point is that the KJV, which is itself divine, can never be wrong.
So you are never going to be able to consider any argument which says otherwise.

Bible Highlighter said:
1 Timothy 3:16 (NET)
“And we all agree, our religion contains amazing revelation: He was revealed in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among Gentiles, believed on in the world, taken up in glory.”

It is very clear from the context exactly who "HE" refers to - Paul has been talking about Godliness; that's your clue. Who else do you know who was seen by angels, vindicated by the Spirit and was eventually taken up into glory?
Maybe the NET didn't feel that it's readers needed it to be spelled out to them.

Bible Highlighter said:
The KJV correctly says God was manifest in the flesh, and the NET says it was He who was manifest in the flesh.

And who do you think He is - Father Christmas?

Bible Highlighter said:
Revelation 1:8 (KJB)
“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.”

Revelation 1:8 (NET)
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God--the one who is, and who was, and who is still to come--the All-Powerful.”

Notice that the words, “the beginning and the ending,” do not appear in the NET Bible. They are omitted.

Or maybe they weren't in the original and the KJV translators added them for clarification.
But again, as your starting point is that the KJV is perfect, you won't even consider that possibility.

Bible Highlighter said:
Titus 2:13 (KJB)
Isaiah 44:6 says “Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.”

This lets us know that Jesus is God again. Yet, this truth is altered in the NET Bible. Isaiah 44:6 is showing there is no God beside the LORD and He is the first and the last (Which is a truth that is removed in the NET Bible in Revelation 1:8). So the NET again attacks the deity of Jesus Christ.

It doesn't, but you can't see that.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Faith Unites said:
lol

Well, seeing the apostle Paul would have known the apostle John, we can assume that Paul knew of 1 John 5:7 (of which John had written during that time).

On top of that the forum rules do state that Non-Trinitarianism is only allowed to be discussed in the Outreach forums. So folks who are promoting Non-Trinitarianism here in a favorable way are in violation of the thread rules.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Strong in Him said:
Your starting point is that the KJV, which is itself divine, can never be wrong.
So you are never going to be able to consider any argument which says otherwise.

Well, it's not like I woke up one day and a beam of light was shining on the King James Bible and yet not on the other bibles. My choice was purely based on the many evidences in defense of the KJB being divine and in the fact that it is the most pure Word above all others.

You said:
It is very clear from the context exactly who "HE" refers to - Paul has been talking about Godliness; that's your clue. Who else do you know who was seen by angels, vindicated by the Spirit and was eventually taken up into glory?
Maybe the NET didn't feel that it's readers needed it to be spelled out to them.

If we were talking about one verse alone, you might be onto something in that this was a fluke or random thing, but we are talking about repeat pattern of darkness in Modern Translations that is too hard to ignore. We see a pattern or a theme of Modern Translations watering down the deity of Christ, the blood atonement, holy living, and much, much more.

You said:
And who do you think He is - Father Christmas?

“But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.” (Titus 3:9).

You said:
Or maybe they weren't in the original and the KJV translators added them for clarification.
But again, as your starting point is that the KJV is perfect, you won't even consider that possibility.

Well, it sure beats trying to spend our whole lives trying to figure out what His Word says in languages we really do not have a 100% certainty on. God is more concerned with our doing what He says. This cannot be if we spend our whole lives being scholars trying to figure out what He said. The book of the Lord is available today and can be found.

You said:
It doesn't, but you can't see that.

Do you honestly think that the devil had no hand in corrupting the Word of God today? Remember, the devil is subtle in the way he operates.

Faith Unites · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, seeing the apostle Paul would have known the apostle John, we can assume that Paul knew of 1 John 5:7 (of which John had written during that time).

On top of that the forum rules do state that Non-Trinitarianism is only allowed to be discussed in the Outreach forums. So folks who are promoting Non-Trinitarianism here in a favorable way are in violation of the thread rules.

I’m in agreement. It was just a funny response. Obey the rules Paul!

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Butch5 said:
Anything that is different than you belief is "clever words" no? I told you I've already addressed this with mods so there's point in you repeating it. I have a different view than you and them. However, as I've made abundantly clear it is from Scripture, unlike your claim. Here was two threads and who knows how many pages and you've yet to produce any Scripture showing there is one God in three persons.

Sure, I did. It's 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible of which you think is an added verse or fraudulent. How convenient. So you side with Modern Translation Bibles in this instance that remove this verse. The word “Godhead” means Trinity. The word “Godhead” appears three times in the King James Bible and we can see that even the Godhead teaches us that the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (See: Romans 1:20).
What invisible things?

Atoms. Water molecules.

For they are 3 and yet 1.

You said:
In addition to that you've ignored passage telling us there is one God, the Father.

I have already addressed John 17:3 before in post #211 within this thread.

You said:
I'll ask again, do you understand, begotten before all ages?

You use these words so as to hide behind them. When I ask for clarification of these words, you continue to hide behind these words instead of clarifying exactly what you mean by answering my specific questions.

You said:
Trying to get me to out of the thread only makes you look like you can't defend your beliefs.

Not true. My only reasons why I don't want you to post in this thread is because:

(a) You are going off topic from the thread discussion beyond the wishes of the creator of the OP (me). Note: Have you never seen a thread cleaned up before because people did not stay on topic before? You are derailing the intended purpose of why I created the thread of which I do not appreciate. It's like I want to talk about cats, and you keep bringing up dogs (with you attempting to be rude and disruptive even after I asked you to kindly stop). Again, how would you feel if you wanted to discuss something really important to you, and then everyone starts talking about something else that you really have no interest in talking about? Remember, the golden rule. Do unto others as you want done unto yourself.

(b) Your continual push against the Trinity is not allowed in this section of the forums. You have told me your belief by email and it sounds just like Binitarianism (2 in 1), or Betheism (2 separate gods) because you think the Holy Spirit is God the Father (Note: I have the email that is very clear in you saying this). So you don't qualify to speak against the Trinity in this section of the forums because the Statement of Faith for Controversial Section of the Forums does not allow for the pushing of Non-Trinitarianism.

Bible Highlighter · Aug 25, 2021

Faith Unites said:
I’m in agreement. It was just a funny response. Obey the rules Paul!

Well, I was not connecting the two paragraphs together. They were two different thoughts. However, that said, Paul did say for us to obey the laws of the land if it does not conflict with God's laws (See: Romans 13).

Butch5 · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Well, I know that begotten means to be given birth to or created. I was asking if that is how you understand those words. That is why I asked the questions in the way that I did for clarification.
Again, do you believe the Living Word (or the Son of God) was begotten in the sense as being created before the creation? Meaning, do you believe the Living Word did not exist in Eternity’s Past? Meaning, do you believe the Living Word had a beginning of days?

Ok, then that answers the question. Begotten doesn't mean created. It means born. I've already told that you won't find anything written by me that says Jesus was created.

The creed says that the Son was begotten, that means born. The creed says that Jesus is True God out of True God. To be born means to come out of. They said it twice. He was begotten and He came out of God. As I've posted Jesus said the same thing. He said He proceeded forth and came out of God in John 8:42.

Jesus is the one who alone possesses immorality. The immediate context is in reference to Jesus. Plus, 1 John 5:20 says Jesus is the true God and eternal life. But yes, Jesus does dwell within the unapproachable light of God the Father. This in no way proves what you stated to me by email in that you appear to hold to some kind of Binitarian or Bitheist viewpoint on God.

No, it's not talking about Jesus. Paul said Jesus will show who is the only Potentate, the one who alone has immortality, the one no man has seen nor can see. That is the Father. Plenty of people have seen Jesus.

You're reading that wrong

And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. (1 Jn. 5:20 KJV)

He says that the Son of God has come and given us and understanding that we may know Him that is true. "Him that is true", is the Father. Jesus came so we could know the Father. And we are in Him that is true, that is, in the Father. Even His Son. Then He says this is the true God and Eternal life. It's talking about the Father. Jesus said the same thing.

These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee:
2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.
3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
(Jn. 17:1-3 KJV)

Okay. So you are saying that the apostle Paul does not agree with the idea of the Trinity?
Well, the forum rules state that you are not allowed to promote Non-Trinitarianism in this section of the forums.

I'm saying that Paul doesn't agree with you. If your doctrine doesn't line up with Paul's your wrong not him.

Butch5 · Aug 25, 2021

Bible Highlighter said:
Sure, I did. It's 1 John 5:7 in the King James Bible of which you think is an added verse or fraudulent. How convenient. So you side with Modern Translation Bibles in this instance that remove this verse. The word “Godhead” means Trinity. The word “Godhead” appears three times in the King James Bible and we can see that even the Godhead teaches us that the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made (See: Romans 1:20).
What invisible things?

Atoms. Water molecules.

For they are 3 and yet 1.

Considering we don't find 1 John 5:7 until about the 1500's I think it's pretty obvious that it's not original. But for argument sake, let's suppose that it is original. It still doesn't prove you claim. The verse can be understood in terms of unity, just as we see in the very next, verse 8. Since the verse can be understood two different ways, you can't prove that your way is the correct way. And, the other way fits the context better because the, spirit, blood, and water agree in one. So we see the "one" in verse 8 is unity, not number. Therefore in context it's logical to assume that the "one" in verse 7 is also unity and not number.

Actually, the word Godhead, doesn't mean trinity. It's an old English word that means Godhood. It's like motherhood or fatherhood.

I have already addressed John 17:3 before in post #211 within this thread.

There are several.

You use these words so as to hide behind them. When I ask for clarification of these words, you continue to hide behind these words instead of clarifying exactly what you mean by answering my specific questions.

Hide? You asked me a question and I said, begotten before all ages. That's not hiding. If I was hiding I'd ignore what you write.

Not true. My only reasons why I don't want you to post in this thread is because:

(a) You are going off topic from the thread discussion beyond the wishes of the creator of the OP (me). Note: Have you never seen a thread cleaned up before because people did not stay on topic before? You are derailing the intended purpose of why Ithey created the thread of which I do not appreciate. It's like I want to talk about cats, and you keep bringing up dogs (with you attempting to be rude and disruptive even after I asked you to kindly stop). Again, how would you feel if you wanted to discuss something really important to you, and then everyone starts talking about something else that you really have no interest in talking about? Remember, the golden rule. Do unto others as you want done unto yourself.

If you go back and look you'll see that I did answer the question in the OP. I believe at that point it was you who took the discussion off topic.

(b) Your continual push against the Trinity is not allowed in this section of the forums. You have told me your belief by email and it sounds just like Binitarianism (2 in 1), or Betheism (2 separate gods) because you think the Holy Spirit is God the Father (Note: I have the email that is very clear in you saying this). So you don't qualify to speak against the Trinity in this section of the forums because the Statement of Faith for Controversial Section of the Forums does not allow for the pushing of Non-Trinitarianism.

I'm not pushing against the Trinity, just your understanding of it. Why do you refuse to acknowledge that others understand it differently? You seem to think that your understanding is the only one allowed. If anyone disagrees with your understanding they need to be banned from the forum.

What I find really humorous is that you're telling people they shouldn't be here because what they believe doesn't fit the rules when you deny the statement of faith. What is it, you're allow to break the rules but no one else is? As I've told you before, I've discussed my beliefs with Mods. On the other hand you're arguing against the Nicene Creed and no one is calling for you to leave. It seems pretty hypocritical to me.

Butch5 · Aug 25, 2021

HARK! · Aug 25, 2021

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF

HARK! · Aug 26, 2021

MOD HAT ON

Due to multiple rule violations:

MOD HAT OFF

HARK! · Aug 26, 2021

MOD HAT ON

MOD HAT OFF

What are the reasons behind a person wrongfully rejecting the Trinity? (Trinity Christians Only)

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Great is thy faithfulness

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

Law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul.

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